Shelo Asani Isha

I can’t believe that last time I read this thread, I missed Popa’s post about atheists.

Women yenta more in 30 days then a guy does in 30 years

Should a woman say Amein if she hears a man make the brocho of Shelo Asani Isha? If so, why?

DaasYochid ☕Participant
Just curious – why don’t you ask the question whether a Yisroel can answer amen to a Kohen’s brocha of asher kid’shsnu bik’dushaso she Aharon?
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I dont see the connection. One is a personal bracha and one is a klall bracha.
Also why would you answer a question with s question?

I dont see the connection. One is a personal bracha and one is a klall bracha.

Why would that make a difference? Either way, it’s a bracha which the person answering amen could never say on their own, yet can still affirm someone else’s bracha.

Also why would you answer a question with s question?

Why wouldn’t I?

The brochos go in order of being m’chuyov more mizvos and thus being able to earn more s’char. A Goy has only 7, a slave has the same as a woman minus a few obvious ones and then is the woman.

A lady says sheosani kirtzoino. This isn’t a ‘replacement’ blessing – it’s a brocho that she is able to fulfil her life’s tachlis which is keeping the mitzvos of a woman.

Oy. Ladies I hope you are not offended. Anyone making denigrating belittling comments about women is simply using distortions of different mekoros and missing out on the core understanding of Torah hashkafa that learning pnimius HaTorah, as the Zohar terms it, the neshama of Torah, would provide.

It also seems that these mens wives have also possibly missed out on their education, because when a woman is educated with full hashkafa, not just be a good girl so the neighbours won’t chatter, she will clearly be the Rochel of her home, whose men clearly recognise that my Torah and your Torah belong to her. Women have always upheld the Yiddishkeit of the Jewish nation by encouraging their husbands to grow and imbuing their children with core values since they raised the Tzivos Hashem way back in Mitzrayim.

I could respond point by point or with fuller explanation but I think I already have on numerous threads so don’t see a point of repeating the same things unless someone has a specific point they want addressed. Feel free to link to the posts I have already written on men and women hashkafa wise on other threads.

According to the Kol Bo women are exempt from time dependent mitzvos because of their family obligations.

Laskern, that’s why the question is why don’t men say it?

Hashem created this world not for his benefit, but for ours. He shares his wealth with all of us wanting that we should do the same. Hilel says אם אין אני לי מי לי if I am not for myself who is כשאני לעצמי מה אני but if I am only for mysellf what am I. The purpose of a man is to work on himself and then on others. If he doesn’t follow this, it would be better if he would never be born because he doesn’t follow the purpose of creation. His existence does not necessarily satisfy the the purpose of creation. The women were created to be a partner to the men satisfying their purpose by their existence. The brocho of the women is not appropriate for the men. The women’s main purpose is to build a family.

“I think R’ Moshe is learning (and the lashon of the Rambam sounds this way) that the added kedushah is not b’etzem, it’s a product of the extra chiyuvim. Kohanim, OTOH, have their extra mitzvos because of the higher level of kedushah.”

I don’t think that’s correct. R’ Moshe says explicity the opposite of that. See here:

“The mitzvah of You shall be holy, which is followed by a recitation of several of the fundamental mitzvos, is not of the same type as the mitzvos that follow it. This mitzvah means that every Jew should realize that he is sanctified with the holiness of the Jew, and it is only because of that holiness that we were given the Torah and obligated to do the mitzvos. As I have often written, mitzvos cannot be fulfilled properly unless the doer has the holiness of the Jew. The Kohanim, who have additional mitzvos, must have the particular holiness of Kohanim. This is why we make a blessing before mitzvos and say, “Who has sanctified us with His mitzvos”; and Kohanim, before doing mitzvos that are limited to Kohanim, say, “Who has sanctified us with the sanctity of Aharon.” The expression “Who has sanctified us with His mitzvos” should not be misunderstood as meaning that mitzvos are the source of the sanctity. It is self-understood that the sanctity the blessing refers to is the underlying sanctity of every Jew — that which enables us to fulfill the mitzvos.”

Rav Moshe Feinstein, zt’l, Darash Moshe, Volume II, p. 154, Vayikra, Kedoshim

To conclude

@slominer posts like @jnn above create context and are not distortions.

Posts like “only a man can reach the level of malach” on a thread that is about a Brocha, not about malachim, are, in my opinion a manipulation of sources and distortion of Torah hashkafa as it doesn’t provide the why, or the corresponding quality in women which makes her unsuitable to reach the level of malach (escape the world), but better suited than men to make the physical world G-dly.

@slominer

They are distortions because a person reading it comes away with the impression that men are everything in Yiddishkeit and women are second place, merely yentas,servants or property etc. It’s not about quoting sources necessarily, it’s about the context they are quoted in.

For example I could list ten examples of women in the Torah and portray them in this way:

1) Hashem told Avraham to listen to everything Sarah says as her nevuah was greater. This was the first Jewish woman.

2) The women were the ones in whose merit we were redeemed from Mitzrayim not the men.

3) Chana is the one we learn how to daven from.

4) the men failed by chet haegel and the women stood strong.

5) the women were the first to donate to the building of the Mishkan.

6) the women all got to go into eretz Yisrael whereas that generation of men died because they chose to believe the 10 miraglims bad report while the women trusted Moshe rabbeinu.

7) Hashem told Moshe to speak to the women first regarding Matan Torah

8) the woman makes the child Jewish

9) the chachamim preferred Chulda over Yirmiyahu because, as a woman, they hoped she would be able to invoke more raisin from Hashem regarding the churban.

10) its in the merit of the women that moshiach will come.

Great. 10 sources. Now you tell me: by reading these sources does that depict the correct roles of men and women in Yiddishkeit? Or its a distortion by lack of context?

Chabad shlucha: Adam was created first, Hashem took his rib away and made Chava from it. Chava owes her life to Adam for sharing his rib.
After Chava fed Adam from the Eta Hadaas Hashem Said “venue yimshol boch” he will rule over you. As chazal tell us “Isha kesheira oseh ritzon baalah”
A wife is meant to be subservient to her husband as his eizer.
He is to be treated as a king while he treats her as his queen.
Feminism has made us think that there are 2 kings in the home, that is a recipe for divorce. No organization has 2 ceo’s, the same goes for marriage.

The Shevat Sofer explains that you need disagreement to come to the true avodas Hashem. By her being knegdo she becomes an ezer avoiding tunnel vision through being able to see the other side of an argument.

*more rachamim (not raisins) from Hashem regarding the churban.

Some of the major Jewish singers today have a song of “shelo asani goy”. If they came out with a song of “shelo asani isha” would that be any different/same or more or less offensive (or no different) than singing shelo asani goy? And, more importantly, why – given that they’re both brochos?

RebYidd23, good point. Singing shelo asani isha at a chasuna probably isn’t going to happen. But if Shloime Gertner, who sings shelo asani goy, sang shelo asani isha at a simchas beis hasheiva or released it on his next album or if it were sung at Yeshiva festivities or other male only functions (at a tish, Chanukah mesuba, etc.), you’d say that’s pretty much the same as singing other songs such as shelo asani goy?

Avrom, isn’t the other song/brocho similarly offensive to a goy?

Also, I question whether it is really offensive. The reason for the brocho is because they have more mitzvos. So why is it anymore offensive for the chazan to say the brocho in shul with the women saying Amein than for men to sing it as a song when women are around? Or, especially, to sing it when at a men-only function.

The motivation would be the same motivation for singing shelo asani goy. Or the motivation when saying the brocho itself and appreciating the reason Chazal instituted it.

@slominer
If there was a sheva mitzvos bnei noach event, shelo asani goy would be an insensitive and definitely offensive song to play despite the bnei noach knowing that we have special mitzvos and even status in Hashem’s eyes. It would be really wrong and can’t imagine it giving Hashem any nachas to say the least.

The reason why these song exist is more celebrating the Jewish life and the meaning it gives us (like in the Yiddish one Avraham fried sings.)

Its not bad middos because we only play it at Jewish events and even with the goyim there, we assume they don’t understand Yiddish and Hebrew.(And in the rare exception s/he will understand that they werent meant to understand it so no offense was meant.)

Whereas men and women are one family unit. We are not different societies, like the Essenes were, nor are we meant to be. A Jewish life is family life where men and women share their lives together. As such, a song celebrating shelo asani isha would definitely be in bad taste and middos even though we know and are not offended by the actual Bracha and the fact our men say it.

In the old days(70s)
they used to sing to the chosson
‘tan l’meisav tan du..’
IOW
she only agreed to marry him because she was
tired of being single

everyone took it in jest

to Chosson

How do you decide which brochos you celebrate and which you don’t? And how have you decided in these examples that one you celebrate and the other not?

If it is a brocho why not celebrate all? Even the asher yotzer example is something certainly worthy of celebrating for that great kindness Hashem bestows upon us everyday. Every brocho is worthy of celebrating and singing Hashem’s praises about.

<<They are distortions because a person reading it comes away with the impression that men are everything in Yiddishkeit and women are second place, merely yentas,servants or property etc >>

Careful now not to bring it the other way. That’s not acceptable either. As to your points:
We don’t learn to daven from Chana. We learn to daven outloud from her. The Avos set up the davening and much of the siddur is from Dovid. The Amidah is from the Anshe Keneset HaGadol.
The merit of the women is one of the reasons we were redeemed from Egypt. The Midrash lists many others including the suffering of the children who the Egyptians buried alive in stone walls, to not changing our language and dress, etc. They are all reasons for the redemption says the parush marazo
The men failed by chet hagel because the men fly higher than the women. If you fly high you can fall. So you also have to credit the men for taking us on a higher journey, for setting up the Torah and Jewish life to the extent Hashem grants us that power. This is why Rav Hirsch says men as zachar, are the zicharon, the carriers of the tradition. I could argue that the women didn’t sin because they were sitting around talking. I wouldn’t say that about the great women of that generation but you get the point, falling has to be understood in context.
Women were spoken to first at har Sinai but the man was spoken to first in gad eden. the Maharal says in gad eden only one mitzvah was given and since women are less spiritual Chava was less able to handle it and you see she initiated the first sin. At har sinai a full system was being given so you could approach the women first and needed to to enforce in them the idea of the importance of Torah. Tiferes Israel 28
According to the Netziv, only Sarah’s ruach hakodesh was higher and that’s because she was in the tent and Avraham was exposed to the masses. But avraham’s navuah was higher. Rav A. Miller says the same and that of course Avraham was her rebbe. R’ Soloveitchik says the matter is limited to certain matters of social, familial relationships.
Bottom line is you are dealing with two types of spirituality. The woman has more of an emunah peshuta that works somewhat intuitively and has a certain stability to it. The man has more of a high flying spirituality (has more chochos hanefesh says the maharal) and can crash because of this but without him you don’t go on much of a journey. You need both types of people.

Look at the Tshuva Meahava 13 who questions, why do we follow Chana rather than Eli? If that was the right way, why would Eli thing that she was drunk? He answers that we don’t follow her completely either. You suppose to hear yourself but others should not hear you when davening, not just moving your mouth.

slominer,

“Q – Shelo asani goy I can understand as Jewish pride, but why sing shelo asani isha as a song? A – the motivation [for singing would be the same motivation as] when saying the brocho itself and appreciating the reason Chazal instituted it”

Nah – we say the bracha because chazal instituted it. No more, no less. They didn’t tell us to make a song of it with microphones, guitars, drum-sets and whatnot. Do you break out the bongo-drums and sing hamotzi lechem min haaretz? Making a song out of a bracha comes from a motivation that we cannot pin on chazal. And again, I can understand the motivation behind the shelo asani goy song. We are in golus, surrounded by a non-Jewish culture that has veered between hostility and assimilating. I can even see a reason for a bongo-drum hamotzi, e.g., chinuch for a young child. I have yet to see a cogent reason for making one from shelo asani isha.