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Maybe, it starts from the mitzvos. Since the woman has less mitzvos as the Kol Bo, he becomes more holy from her and not vice versa that because he is holier he has more mitzvos.
There’s a big difference between קדוש and מקודש, the latter being the expression that the bartenura and rambam use. Kadosh means something is holy. Mekudash means it is holi-fied, sanctified; consecrated – not intrinsically holier, but set aside from something else for a specific purpose. When the malachim praise Hashem, they don’t call him mekudash, they say kadosh. When you marry a woman, you call her mekudeshes, that she is now separate and specified for you and not other men l.
It might sound like it’s splitting hairs, but i think it’s emes.
I’ll try to fetch the sources for the oft-quoted sentiment that women are closer to Hashem’s idea of perfection and don’t need certain mitzvos – this isn’t one of my pet projects that i can rattle off sources for; though anti feminism sources….those I know a lot of.
Avira, I agree the extra mitzvos make him mekudash, sanctified over her. He is not born as kadosh. The GRA says that the father through his circumcision sacrifices his son as a korban after the eight day but she does not need it.
And a Kohein is intrinsically holier than a Yisroel? Or a Talmid Chochom than a layman?
I think the same principles apply. They all become holier through their avoda.
UJM, you admire a Cohen?
A kohen’s kadima in this regard applies even if he’s an am haaretz; in other matters we say that a mamzer talmid chochom is kodem – or does it apply to pikuach nefesh too?
The Kohen would not come first in that case but only to avoid machlokes he always is called up first, so by pikuach nefesh the talmid chacham would certainly come first.
I think Talmid Chacham has a priority in pidyon also
Personally, i think this question became popular after tv shows like “my unorthodox life”. I think it comes from trying to find faults and Un justifications things in the most justified religion.
Not that im trying to attack you Yehudis21, this question never bothered me. There are many good answers written in this forum.
“Personally, i think this question became popular after tv shows like “my unorthodox life”
I don’t think the visuals or storyline from My Unorthodox Life have had any significant impact within the frum tzibur, assuming many even subscribe to Netflix (which I doubt). It is more comedy than reality since it is doubtful R’ Hendler reflect the norm for frum yidden in Monsey whose ex-wives engage in the kind of pritzusdike stuff supposedly portrayed and still are willing to maintain a close relationship and engage in mutual visitations etc. for the sake of the youngest yeshiva bochur (who seems to be the only real grown up in the whole sad mishpacha).
I’ll only be willing to reconsider saying shelo asani isha once I find a critical number of married frum women who want their husbands to wish they had been born women.
It is not against the other, it is against the EXEMPTION of many mitzvot , as a man.
The singers who composed tunes for a song to shelo asani goy should do the same for shelo asani isha.
You said that two years ago
I heard that Mordechai Ben David comes here once in awhile. Hopefully this will get his attention.
UJM, are you still so proud of what you accomplished before being born: being a male? I would have hoped you accomplished something else since then that you can take pride in.
Actually, the only pride that is totally Muttar, is being Jewish. So, why would you swap that for your personal obsession?
HaLeiVi: Hopefully you’re not making a brocha of shelo asani isha every day of your life. Otherwise there’s good reason to believe you’re proud of being born male.
Is it okay, in your humble opinion, for a Kohein to be proud he was born a Kohein? (Is it okay to be proud that you were born with your Zaida being Rav Chaim Brisker?) Can a freeman be proud he wasn’t born an eved?
Are you anti R’ Yom Tov Ehrlich?
pekak: Of course not. R’ Yom Tov Ehrlich would likely have made the beautiful lyrics something like this:
שלא עשני אשה
שלא עשני אשה
אט די ברכה טוט מען מאכן אלע טאג אזוישלא עשני אשה
שלא עשני אשה
יעדן טאג דארף מען זיך פרייען זייער פיל אזויטאטע געטרייער
דו ביסט דאך ביי אונז טייער
שווער צו געפונען
ווי אזוי דיר אפצודינעןנישט דא קיין געדאנקען
כדי דיר צו דאנקעןאכט טאג ביים ברית ווי שיין און פּרעכטיג
א קליינע זיסע איד
די ערשטע מצוה עס מאכט אים לעכטיג
,ווייל יעצט איז ער א איד
ביי דריי יאר די פּאות די האניג אפּלעקן
און אויסזען ווי א איד
לויפן אין חדר אויך אָן א שטעקן
.כ’האב ליב צו זיין א אידCHORUS:
שלא, שלא, עשני אשה
זאגט א יעדער מענטש אזוי
שלא, שלא, עשני אשה
זינגט א יעדער מענטש אזוי
אפילו ווען ס’איז שווער
די תורה דאך מ’היט
אלץ אזוי זאגט ער
“!איך בין שטאלץ צו זיין א מענטש”On a related topic, all girls learn that “bays yaakov” refers to when Hashem addresses women … at the same time, Gemora in BM ~ 33 thinks BY refers to amei haaretz …
Rashi explains that women are told belashen raka, light and men strong, like gidim. Women were commanded first lin order to have them convince the men not like Chava being told second.
Aaq, rashi says pashut pshat in the pasuk refers to noshim. They’re not taught wrong.
I’m still waiting to meet a woman who wants a husband who wishes he was a woman. Hence the bracha (imho).
I thought it was well known that this was a symptom of their greco-roman surroundings. To say that our Chachamim were just pure chauvinists like the rest of the world would simply be unnacceptable.
Here are some quotes:
Diogenes Laertius, a contemporary of the Taanaim, writes,
“The story … is told by some of Socrates, namely, that he used to say there were three blessings for which he was grateful to Fortune: “First, that I was born a human being and not one of the brutes; next, that I was born a man and not a woman; thirdly, a Greek and not a barbarian.”
Diogenes Laertius lived about three hundred years before the gemara that gives us the version that is now in our siddurim
“It is taught in a baraita that Rabbi Meir would say: A man is obligated to recite three blessings every day praising God for His kindnesses, and these blessings are: Who did not make me a gentile; Who did not make me a woman; and Who did not make me an ignoramus.”[6
The version actually found in our siddurim is based on a a few lines later in the gemara.
Feel free to do more research for the exact sources I don’t have the most time on my hands, but Chas Vashalom allow our sages to be trodden upon.@GodolHaolam, Square root new user name?
>>>Diogenes Laertius lived about three hundred years before the gemara that gives us the version that is now in our siddurim
This is of course plagrized from an apikorsus blog.
The Tosefta which first mentions making those brochas predates Diogenes Laertius.
The reliability of Diogenes’ sources has been questioned, even by secular scholars . Do you believe Diogenes Laërtius claim that when Diogenes of Sinope committed suicide he held his breath for a few days until he died? Or do you go with the teretz that he had several breath holding sessions until he caused himself enough brain damage that he died? Even the believers who give that answer are clearly saying that not everything coming from Diogenes Laertius is to be taken at face value. And in this case he himself explicitly says that his source is just hearsay ( hundred of years later)
In general the sentiment found among academics that if the Torah says something but that sentiment is also found by non-Jews of the time there must have been some non-Jewish influence is nonsense. Some sentiments are universally believed at least at certain times. The fact that Torah and lhavidl say some Greek philosopher both said a similar concept just shows that the idea resonated even in other cultures. Not influence ch’v
Gadol, you say in one line “Chas Vashalom allow our sages to be trodden upon.” But then you turn around and say that the bracha was made because of greco-roman influence?
Rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik, not one who was quick to label things heretical, clearly wrote in 5 drashos that to attribute any motivation or outside nfluence to anything in chazal is unequivocally apikorsus.
R Meir lived 50-100 years before Diogenes Laertius
and probably Baraita’s attribution to R Meir is more accurate than Diogenes Laertius attribution to Socrates unless there are other sources. Also, see reverse order. Greeks start w/ ignoramusThe sefer kaftor veferach from the early rishonim reports that early greek scholars met with neviim and chachamim, and that greek philosophy is a corrupted version of torah, namely kabalah.
So if socrates said it, he probably got it from yidden, not the other way around, even if the written date came before our written record, but as smerel pointed out, this isn’t the case.
“I thought it was well known,”
Either it’s well known in JTS circles (probably isn’t) or you’re pretending that something you saw online from an apikores is well known to make it look somehow authentic, but even in co-ed schools, no one teaches that chazals torah is from goyim.
Well as I view it as a particularly unfortunate bracha, I would prefer thinking of it’s inclusion as a victim of time and place rather than a conscious effort to ensure it’s underlying belief would remain for millennia.
“Rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik, not one who was quick to label things heretical, clearly wrote in 5 drashos that to attribute any motivation or outside influence to anything in chazal is unequivocally apikorsus.”
He’s welcome to believe as he wishes but I find that quite uncompelling. Nobody lives in a vacuum.You got me. I just searched for the basic writing up of the idea, mentioned I was quoting but didn’t elaborate for it’s irrelevant and for the potential animosity that could be arisen. If you’d prefer I write up the idea entirely in my own wording I can go ahead.
“The reliability of Diogenes’ sources has been questioned, even by secular scholars .”
I don’t doubt it. Every document of the ancient world is subject to such doubts as it’s clear that our idea of objective history is a more recent idea.
“The fact that Torah and lhavidl say some Greek philosopher both said a similar concept just shows that the idea resonated even in other cultures”
Agreed. These findings prove nothing completely. At their lowest, these writings show that these beliefs, wishes and praises were more widespread and were not known solely by their potential Rabbinic originator. Granting any levels more of veracity would be preferable in my eyes even if the reality is a toss-up, for the reasons I mention in my previous reply. This is not a bakasha we should be proud of. I think it’s fine to keep it around for now as we have done our due diligence and concocted an alternative for the ladies in our kehillos, and the apologetics that circulate regarding the differences in theirr terminology are satisfactory to most.Agreed there’s nothing that can be conclusively drawn from his quote. Except that these sentiments were wellspread and their inclusion can be attributed to their time/place and don’t have to be pinned to eternal jewish thought.
>>>Agreed there’s nothing that can be conclusively drawn from his quote. Except that these sentiments were wellspread and their inclusion can be attributed to their time/place
I agree that YOUR sentiment and the sentiment of your teachers on the blogs you plagiarize from are to be attributed to your/their time and place.
When it comes to Chazal absolutely not! Had those blogs been around in the time Chazal were actually living they would be writing against them for NOT subscribing to and coming under the great enlightened and educated non-Jewish view . Like some living at the time actually did.
“Well as I view it as a particularly unfortunate bracha”
Haolam: There’s nothing “unfortunate” whatsoever about this Brocha. Baruch Hashem we all have the great Zchus to make this Brocha will 100% kavana seven days a week, weekdays, Shabbosim and Yomim Tovim; every day of our lives from childhood through old age.
The Broacha, absolutely, was instituted by Chazal as “a conscious effort to ensure its underlying belief would remain for millennia”, as you so succinctly put it. This is a bakasha that we absolutely are proud of.
I guess we subscribe to different viewpoints regarding this. I appoint no superpowers to our sages but view them as ordinary people (with extraordinary intellectual abilities) that were tasked as many have been, with the leadership of sending our traditions on to the next generation with a few additions/subtractions of their own predicated on their personal viewpoints. This happens in every generation, just a bit less so it seems, the further we get from the origins.
Our chachamim are not a monolith as is often implied but rather disagree quite often. In fact on quite a similar point we have a famous story regarding a variety of viewpoints originating from within Chazal:
“Reb Yehudah bar Ilai praised the Romans, saying how wonderful their government is. But Reb Shimon bar Yochai responded, “What are you talking about? These things that seem so great to you are really just for the Romans themselves, to help them carry out their evil plans!”
Two varying perspectives on the surrounding culture and the proper perspective to harbor towards it.
So how the enactors of this bracha would respond to it today is not perfectly clear. Therefore I will view it as I do, and you are free to continue viewing as you do.Shelo Asani Isha should be made with the same simcha, with the same kavana, with the same intensity, with the same love, and with the same thankfulness as you make on Shelo Asani Goy and Shelo Asani Eved and on every other brocha during Birchas Hashachar.
Gadol, do you feel unbound by Jewish law?
When you have a shailoh, do you ask ola rov or do you decide on your own?
And even if you decide on your own, do you use poskim, or do you decide from the gemara on your own?
Or do you use chumash and just consider what chazal say as optional?
Jewish legal authorities consider this line of thought, which was held by maskilim, to be forbidden, as apikorsus. Just as you are bound by halacha as to what you do, you are bound to have certain beliefs. These beliefs are codified by the same authorities who tell you what tefilin are kosher, when you’re obligated to say shma, and what food you are allowed to eat
Maybe there is some common ground between the sides here: Chachomim could use lashon used in their times in Greek culture to express their position. It may be agreeing with something, or using the Greek form but changing context to the Jewish one.
In this particular case, Diogenes Laertius records a 4th-hand story: Hermippus in his Lives refers to Thales the story which is told by some of Socrates, namely, that he used to say there were three blessings for which he was grateful ….
Right after that, DL quotes a story about Thales that might be of use for many: It is said that once, when he was taken out of doors by an old woman in order that he might observe the stars, he fell into a ditch, and his cry for help drew from the old woman the retort, “How can you expect to know all about the heavens, Thales, when you cannot even see what is just before your feet?”
Attention ujm. I think you need to convince the government to make a National Men’s Day to commemorate the superiority of the male species. Women will be required to come pay homage to men by bowing down to them and bringing them gifts. Only then will you be truly happy. Unless you are already truly happy by virtue of being from the superior species. I’m not sure.
opinionated-2: Hashem, our Creator, gave us a blessing we are commanded to say everyday of our lives thanking Him for not making us a woman; isn’t that much much better than a National Men’s Day? (We already have Women’s Month every year in March in America.)
Unless you hold it against HKB”H for giving us this Brocho to recite seven days a week, all year?
I think its not enough for the true Kavod and Gedulah that you need and rightfully deserve.
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