- This topic has 89 replies, 30 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Take 6 women in six different environments but identically dressed and all six will give off a totally different impression.
It’s not so much the sheitel, but more the wearer and her overal demenour. Take into consideration her mannerisms and speech and that’s the overall impression you’ll get.
true tznius comes from within and how a woman, and man for that matter, project themselves outwardly is how they choose to project themselves and how they want to be seen.
Moshiac will come when everyone stops judging his fellow man and starts to look at himself from in and out, honestly and ruthlessly! Moshiac will come when we all stop being holier than thou and Moshiac will come when our tefillos are heard by Hashem in the true spirit of their meaning.
mazal, I don’t see where I have contridicted myself at all.
Yes, HaShem did give ME mitzvos but it is ME who choses to take them on.
You are correct in that I would not have thought of the particular mitzvos without HaShem’s Gift of our Torah. One of the many additional Gifts HaShem has given with His Torah is B’chira. I choose to accept and hopefully become a better Jew in MY avodas HaShem. To answer your question, yes without a doubt I want Moshiach to come but that doesn’t mean this is why I do my best to lead a Torah life. Its about ME remember? I don’t know where you got the twisted idea that I dress or do anything else because I “care what others think” I thought I made myself crystal clear in that its all about ME and MY avodas HaShem.
I hope you don’t think that HaShem “needs” us to cover our hair for Him – He gave us the Gift of Torah for us to become better people in order to be close to Him and serve Him.
I guess, my friend, you are “preaching to the choir” we just sing a different melody -maybe if we harmonize THAT will help to bring Moshiach. (Assuming kol isha is not an issue!)
I work in an office where there is a non-frum man working. He mentioned TO the married ladies: “most of these married ladies who wear wigs, attract men much more then the single girls do.”
We do not need to wear shmatas, or paruuks or scarves on our heads. The whole perpose of a sheitel is to tell the difference between a married and single girl, so that doesn’t mean wear something that will make you uncomftorable.
EVERYONE CAN USE THEIR OWN JUDGEMENT WHAT IS CONSIDERED RIGHT OR WRONG!!
Nobody, you are NOT a nobody. You made a few really good points. we happen to live in very judgmental times right now. Half the population is (whether they will admit it or not) always judging the other. It is a two-way street, many Chareidim tend to think that those who do not follow their complete derech are OFF the derech – that they alone hold the keys to Olam Haba. The non-frum among us tend to likewise judge those who choose a very machmir lifestyle, as being old-fashioend or out of touch with the needs of modern times. Both sides err. There is a shvil hazahav, where people can follow the Torah, but live in today’s world. We can learn to live and let live and always try to be mekareiv instead of marchik other Jews. With the kind of divisiveness and exclusionary lifestyle that is rampant today, it is a bigger challenege than it ever was. There is a mindset that needs to change on both sides.
I see women all the time who have a great deal of difficulty with going to the Mikveh, much less covering their hair. Since none of us has ever been privy to HaShem’s intent about hair covering in maried women i.e. precisely WHY it is required and HOW it is required to be accomplished, but we merely SURMISE what those reasons may be, it would be a really good thing if people would be happy to see the mitzvah being fulfilled in ANY manner. Again, to take it away from this hot-button issue, if someone has never been kosher and is starting to keep kosher, would you criticize him for eating something that is clearly kosher, though perhaps not from the hechsher that YOU might use yourself? If you have diabetes and eating pastries can kill you, should the bakeshops be required to leave their most beautiful cakes and pies out of sight or design them less attractively, lest you walk by and cannot control yourself? The answer is – learn to control yourself. All of Torah is about learning self-control. Whether it is Kashrus, not stealing, not behaving illicitly, keeping Shabbos, even the halacha of not hating someone in our hearts for having wronged us, all of the laws teach us something about controlling our yetzer hara. We cannot simply do whatever we want. Nike is wrong – we should not “just do it.”
Women do need to be modest in their behavior, dress, demeanor, but some would argue what exactly constitutes “modest” behavior. Would anyone argue that Devora Hanevia was immodest for leading the Jewish army against Siserah? If a frum woman or ANY Jewish woman were to do that today, all the rabbonim would come out in protest. Yet, somehow, it was not looked upon as a bad thing in Sefer Shoftim. In fact, Yael, the real heroine of that story, who actually did some things that would be looked askance by frum standards (Yichud with Siserah, flirting with him in order to get his guard down, getting him drunk in order to kill him), did so in order to save Am Yisrael, as did Esther Hamalkah after her, and Yehudis during the time of the maccabees. None of these women were traditional in their behavior, but none of them would be thought of as untzniusdig.
Sorry to get on a soap box today – I apparently have way too much time on my hands this morning, and these are issues that really get my attention.
sjsinnyc
well actually it is the reason. You know the single girls use to cover their hair also? You know why they took it off?
It’s difficult for me to understand why we can’t at least acknowledge that there is a very real problem with sheitels that do not look like they are sheitels. If people see you and do not know whether you are married,then……!!!
(and I am not referring to young women, who can usually tell).
fellowjew, why is there a problem with sheitels that look “real” ?
why is it anyone’s business?
If a man is wearing his titzis tucked in (as I prefer) do you suggest that he is asked if he is wearing them?
As many have stated before, there is no requirement to look fake, frumpy, or unattractive.
Reb Moshe said sheitels are ok, because even thought they are designed to look like human hair, women can always tell the difference.
I have difficulty understanding how very pretty sheitels can be asur, wince we have a klal used in the gemara of im kein nasata devarecha lshiurin, meaning where are you going to draw the line. Who can certify that this sheitel is not over attractive, but this one is. It is impossible to have a halacha where there is no way to objectively define what is ok and what is not. In all areas we have rigid measurements, like 4 tefachim for a lulav, 40 seah for a mikvah, but a wishy washy or subjective measure can never work.
Even the synthetic sheitels of 25 years ago were better than many women’s own hair, yet nobody had a problem. This issue is not at all clear cut.
Why Am yisrael is suffering so much illness and lack of livelihood, orphans R’L.
Rabbi Ovadya Yosef shilta, has said, regarding wigs, 200 years ago,Rabbi Pinchas Levy Horwitz ZTL, took out a sefer torah, and with 2 talmadei chachmain dayanim.,placed a complete Cherem, on any woman that wears a wig in public. He said on the Sefer Torah, that any woman who wears a wig, will receive the highest ecclesiastical censure.
The reason a wig is prohibted is because it is immodest, doesn’t matter wear it comes from, it remains immodest.
The Vilna Gaon, Chasam Sofer,Rabbi Avraham Palaggi, ZT’L and various other Gaonim prohibted women from wearing wigs.
The Gaon Vosner, Shilta, in his sefer,wrote that any form of wearing a wig is prohibted. Every woman that wished to have sons to be tzadikkim, should remain modest. The biggest problem nowadays is that women think it is allowed and deny the Tzadik’s cherem. Those that make fun of women who are modest and wear kerchiefs, their sin is very great, woe to them.
If a woman want to wear a kerchief and her husband does not let her, he is considered a wicked man, someone that causes other to sin. His Torah is invalid, All his deeds are corrupt.
If we don’t believe our Rabonimm and Poskim that wigs are Prohibted, who are we going to believe?
But Pashuteh YId… you can make that statement with all of tznius…. not just shaitels… its not always so clear cut… some things just give an air of not being tznius even when all is covered…. its sensitivity. and so to by shaitels… in one place it may be fine in another not.
I dunno… is a girl not tznius if she doesnt “wear seams” while walking in a chassidish neighborhood?
The Posak Hador, Rabbi Shmuel HaLevy Vosner, Shilta, says what benefit is a mezuzah, if the impurity enters the jewish home. A Wig’s Origin is from “Tachtit Sheol(lowest Hell). We are witnesses that we want to be Bnei Torah and want to enjoy the modern world at the same time. Women need to be modest in the upmost modest way, but unfortunately,in many jewish homes, many jewish women have turned the Halacha into a perfomance, and jewish married women do not look jewish. They do not even look like married women. They look like actresses from the streets, they do not look like holy women. Chazal say “Sa’are B’Isha Erva” Hair on a woman is forbidden. What a forgery it is to cover hair with hair. The wig is more stimulaiting then the nautral hair. What a forgery!!
Whether women who wear wigs,know or don’t know that they are forbidden, they are sinners that cause other people to sin. They cause their neighborhood and communites to transgress serious torah prohibtion, V’Lo Tatiro Acrei La’Vav’Chem, V’Acrei, Einecham. Not to follow after your heart and not to follow after your eyes.
Hagaon HaTzadik, Sholom Shvadron ZT’l tells of a true story that happened to him. He wished it were not true. @5 years ago, a girl came to his house to speak to his wife for 4 hours.
while he was sitting and learning, he thought someone that is speaking for 4 hours must need a drink. He told his wife, that “maybe you should give her something to drink and eat?” The girl heard him and said it was not neccessary, thatshe was going home to eat and drink at her home. When she said that, he realized that is girl was married and has a husband. So why does she look like a girl?? Do you think it is funny?? it is not funny, they want to look like unattached women. This wanting is treife, unfit, unkosher.
He goes on to say that, in regards to the sotah, “And let him uncover the head of the woman” A woman that is unfaithful to her husband is disgraced. They disgrace her by removing her hair covering and now women want to look like a Sotah??!! She wants to look like a girl that is unmarried and unavailable? A woman that wears a wig, it’s as if she in not covering her hair?? A woman who wears a wig has no holiness. Who gave permission for women to wear wigs?? To wear a wig that looks better than her own hair and doesn’t even look like a wig?? 24 Poskei Hador in Israel prohibt the wearing of wigs. His grandfather ruled that Divrei Torah or even a blessing can not be said in front of women who wear wigs. The only way to say Divrei Torah or say a blessing in such a situation is if someone dloses his eyes.
Women with wigs, who light candles friday night, that make request for help from Hashem, Oy Gevald, she is praying to Hashem. A person who does not listen to Torah Scholars, his prayers are considered an abomation. Hashem will not listen to these prayers. In this black epidemic R’L, who knows what punishment is knocking on our doors!! Hashem have mercy on us!!
Note: these are words from tzadikim, if you have an issue, speak to your Rav about how he feels about wigs.
Hello Editor,
How come my posts weren’t put up. I sent 3 already
***YW MODERATOR RESPONSE***: Because your posts, on average, are the length of a standard newspaper article and it takes time to read them. :o)
I enjoy Mazal’s post. Its well worth the read!
Please post ’em all!
so after you have read them, can you please post them? Thanks
Great stuff Mazal. Everything that you said is true. Wearing a modern sheital is a statement just like wearing modern clothes.
By the way does anyone hear anymore about Avodo Zoro Wigs or has that huge story calmed down a bit???
Anyone know the details?
The wigmakers are makpid now to use European hair wigs, so as to preclude any question of avoda zora. As to Mazal’s assertions, Mazal, by all means do not wear a wig. The Rabbonim you mention had their hashkafa, and other Rabbonim have a different one. There is a machlokess, and one does not pasken something for klal Yisroel that most people will not do. It is a machlokess because different men come from different backgrounds and mindsets, and there are as many choshuveh Rabbonim whose opinions differ from those whom you quoted. You are getting a little excited about this subject,and clearly it is an issue that is very important to you. Not all people are of your opinion, though I certainly respect your wishes to follow what you believe to be true, and to follow any gadol who resonates with you. My rov has no problem whatsoever with us wearing sheitlach. His rebbetzin wears one, and no one would mistake any of us for unmarried.
Now don’t attack me about my above posts, these are WORDS OF CHACHAMIM and NOT my own. I didn’t say them. I am pointing out how some of the Rabonim, past and present, feel about this issue.
The New York Times did a story in 1997, on the decadence of the wig culture. They included an interview with a famous wig maker, who said “I had a dream to manufacture a beautiful wig for the jewish community, I had a dream when you walked down the street,you wouldn’t be able to say, this young woman is wearing a wig”.
Look up Igros Moshe YD 2, Siman 88 who states that even those who asur sheitels, only do so because of maris ayin, but there is no issur.
Also see Igros Moshe EH 2 Siman 12, that the majority of poskim permit it including the Rama, the Magen AVrohom, the Pri Megadim, and seemingly the GRA, and that their reasoning seems correct. He goes on to say that a husband has no right to forbid his wife from wearing a sheitel. He also says that if you are choshesh for this type of maris ayin, then you would not be allowed to shave, as people might suspect you use a blade. He says that even if you do not shave, you still may not force your chumra on your wife and she can still wear a sheitel.
ALso look up the Gemara Taanis 23b quoted by Reb Moshe in the first tshuva that the wife of the great tzaddik Abba Chilkiya the grandson of Choni Hameagel would go out into the streets all dressed up with jewelry, etc. to greet him at the city limits when he came back from work. THe gemara praised this because by having his wife dress up so nicely (in public), he would not think of other women. Also note that when he came to his house, first his wife went in, then he went in, then all the rabbanim who came to ask him to daven for rain.
So the bottom line is that according to Reb Moshe, there is absolutely no problem, and probably most of us in the USA follow Reb Moshe as our posek.
So ALL sheitels are untznius and come from gehenon? Hmmm. Reb. Zahava Brounstien wore a human hair sheitel. Does anyone here think she was untzniyus? Joseph? Mazal?
I think that tzniyus has been hashed and rehashed many times on YWN. I think it basically boils down to the custom in your comunity i.e. Sephardic, Chassidic or Litvish and how frum you are.
I have many relatives in the sheital business and I can tell you that very natural sheitals have been with us for over 30 years. Sheitels have been around even longer. I have a picture of my grandmother back in the 1930s in Czeckeslovakia with a sheitel covered snood. Not the kind we wear now, but the style of snood worn in the ’20s and ’30s (contrary to the popular notion, snood is an English word and many women wore them in the past).
I think every person should follow their LOR and their Rav and stop insulting people who might have a different Rav.
Mazal, you are oviously passionate on this subject and you seem to be knowledgeable and sincere but posting these long posts one after another after another, maybe you should write for a magazine or write a book.
Mazal,
Thank you for those beautiful posts. Emes always has a way of coming out on top.
“Member
Now don’t attack me about my above posts, these are WORDS OF CHACHAMIM and NOT my own. I didn’t say them. I am pointing out how some of the Rabonim, past and present, feel about this issue.”
Did you feel attacked? I am sorry about that, it was not my intent. I do not believe in attacking, nor do I believe that respectful disagreement is unreasonable. Not all rabbonim agree with each other and eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim chayim.
To just me: like I wrote at the end of the posts, these are what those Rabbi’s has to say on the issue. I didn’t say sheitels are from Gehenom and as far as Mrs.Zahava Braunstein A’H, is concerned, I don’t think she would ever wear some of those extremely long sheitels that are on the heads of some people. I think she were a nice shoulder length model if I am not mistaken. And if you read prior posts, I had written then if the Rabonim that did give permission for the wearing of wigs way back when, If they had any idea of what the wigs out there look like nowadays, they would not permit them nowadays. Wig wearing has gained tremoundous popularity and the fact that some of these wigs can cost in the thousands so women can look like they are NOT wearing a wig, (why else would they spend so much on a wig is only because they don’t want to look like they are wearing one and please be honest with yourself about that) something there is just not quite kosher. Modesty can also mean on how much one spends on clothing (wigs included). Since you have family in the wig business, course these posts will offend you. Just because Hashem gave the person money, it doesn’t mean they have to blow it away. Can someone please really justify to me spending thousands on a wig, and what are your reasons??
No oomis, Chalila, of course you didn’t attack. When I wrote that, I meant to say that these are things that some chachomim hold by. I wouldn’t go over and tell a person in their face that a Sheitel is from Gehinom. I don’t believe in embarassing anyone. I do love every jew and when I daven, especially, now, in these unprecedented times,I daven to Hashem that He does not harm not one single Jew, no matter on what level they are.
I don’t know you and you don’t know me. I think we’re having a reasonable discussion. I was merely giving examples of how some Rabonim feel on the issue. But I think “JUST ME” may have thought I wrote that, because, she says she wishes people would stop insulting others who have a different rav. So for Just Me, if you thought I insulted you, I am sorry. Also,sorry for putting up some long posts that I should write for a Magazine. This might bother the editor though :), Sorry YWN Editor, I get one thought and then run with it and then it is hard to stop writing.
Mazal, first of all, I think anyone spending beyond their reach is very foolish whether we are talking about a wig, a car, a kiddush or a house. Yes, I deffinatally say that some women don’t want to look like they are wearing wigs. I’m sure there are some sheitel machers that only sell the wigs that look like wigs just like there are some groceries that only sell certain hashgachas. There are those sheitel machers that sell very natural wigs. The two business people have very different clientel. While there is a possibility that if the second type of woman wasn’t in business her customers would wear the other kind of wigs, there is also the possibility that these woman wouln’t cover their hair. A cousin in the business was told that by some of her customers just starting to cover their hair.
I think that what is considered tniyus in one community may not be in a diffieremt one i.e. long hair in the Syrian community. Many people writing here are posting what their rov said as the absolute bottom line. It’s just not. We unfortunatally don’t all follow one rav. There is no absolute anymore. Iy”H when Moshiach comes we will have it again.
I was not insulted by what you or anyone said, Mazal, but the tone of many of the posters (not nessaserily you) says that if you don’t agree with them, you are the lowest of the low. That “always right” attitude annoys me no matter what the person is talking about. Personally, I felt the “nissayon” of Indian hair sheitels (which many rabbonim mahttered) was not bain adom l’Makom but bain adom l’chavoiro. All women I know of stopped wearing any wig they were not 100% sure was European. I had heard though of self-rightous hat-wearing woman practically throwing a wig-wearing woman out of shul. I wish I had heard that only once but I had heard it from too many women. I’d say the Yidden passed the first part but failed on the second.
I hope you were not offended by what I wrote, Mazal. If I did offend you, I appologize.
sjsinny
You know that girls use to cover their hair, right?
sjsinnyc
Now do you know why they stopped?
SJSinNYC- There is no source per se that real-looking sheitels are assur. But it is still a lack of tznius in the spirit of things.
“SJSinNYC- There is no source per se that real-looking sheitels are assur. But it is still a lack of tznius in the spirit of things. “
Again, it is not good to make assumptions about the nature of the reason for the halacha of covering one’s hair. If there is “no source, per se, that real-looking sheitels are assur,” then you really cannot necessarily assume that there is a lack of tznius in the spirit of things. It may be in Hashem’s eyes that any manner in which a woman covers her hair after marriage, is considered tzniusdig, because it is only the actual fact of the COVERING (and not any specific reason WHY) that is the important aspect. Since none of us has spoken to Hashem about this recently, we really cannot presume to speak for Him or ascribe reasons to Him that may be based on a mistaken opinion. Because the halacha was not spelled out in the Torah but only alluded to, there is a machlokess throughout the ages as to exactly how it is meant to be observed. I said it before – we should be glad that many women, who otherwise might be turned off from wearing a head covering, are in fact covering their hair, instead of arguing whether or not they are doing it the right way.
One thought about current sheitels. Many seem to express displeasure with the most recent sheitels because they are very long. But think about it. Why were they shorter 15 years ago? The reason was not because they were more tzniusdig then, it was exactly the opposite. It was because the styles were shorter then, and short was considered *more* attractive than long. The same was true of single girls’ hair, and maybe even in the non-Jewish world, as well. The sheitels were no worse looking than now, for people who lived through that era. There were no sudden advances in sheitel technology the past 15 years. Styles simply became longer, and in a few years will probably become shorter, just like men’s ties which go from thick to thin all the time. To say that long sheitels are less tzniusdig than short sheitels simply seems arbitrary, and not in conformance with how women choose. If Reb Moshe had no problem with the most stylish sheitels of his day, it seems a stretch that he would have a problem with the most stylish sheitels of today. Nowhere does he caution that everything he writes only holds true if they are not too long or nice. He explicitly states that even in his day many couldn’t tell the difference between a sheitel and actual uncovered hair, and he says that this doesn’t matter.
“we should be glad that many women, who otherwise might be turned off from wearing a head covering, are in fact covering their hair, instead of arguing whether or not they are doing it the right way.”
Exactly how I feel!!! How many times have I seen a woman who previously did not cover her hair all of a sudden put on a shaitel? It is only because the styles nowadays are much nicer than ever before. I got married in 1985, and there is no comparison between the wigs now and the wigs then. Now the hair is nicer and most of the wigs come with a skin top so the part looks real. It was only those few who could afford to spend several thousand dollars for a custom made wig that really looked like their own hair. Nowadays, everyone can look really nice with all these very real looking wigs. I think it’s fantastic.
True its better but what should be made known is that its not ideal. But other than that im with you all the way shindy.
I think it is very nice that our husbands come home to find their lovely wives, and that is the ideal.
I just went to a very heimisheh yeshivisheh black hat chasuna last night in Brooklyn,with aller choshuveh Rabbonim, and every single woman there had a sheitel. So how is it possible that anyone could suspect that klal yisroel as a whole is doing wrong? Clearly this is how the am is noheg, and zehu, end of story. Bmakom shehalacha refuyah byadcha pok chazi mai ama dvar.
“Sheitels” Found it!! Here we go found it. The topic was sheitels. Mods, on tonight, maybe you want to condense the new thread with this older one.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.