Shavous Learning

Feel free.

Go open a bais medrash packed with girls.

It will be a huge hit.

A female magid shiur, rosh yeshiva, mashgiach, tamlidos, cooks, machers, hockers, beeper people and everything else.

Let us know when your in business.

Since you are so into this, everyone here is soooo interested in hearing which sugya did you lig in today? The olam here is very interested in hearing all about it. You definitely shteig away all day and must be 1/2 way trough shas & poskim already.

Looking forward to hearing about today’s sugya. Don’t leave out any shver Reb Chaims, Birchas Shmuels, Ketzos’, Kovez Shiurims, Steiplers, Reb Reuveins and the rest of the yesodos nogea to farshteing a teifer sugya.

Waiting anxiously…..

niiiiiiiice! Key Master way to go!!!!

(is there such a thing as the Editor getting ousted?)

btw-

Y.W. Editor

Key Master

You can. Go to Avi Weiss & Co.

who dat? I sense there’s something really good to be had out of that comment- if only I knew who this Avi Weiss & Co. was

nice and opinion-free feivel 😉

but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out who’s side you’re on

oomis, Rav Shach is buried in Bnei Brak. Feel free to head over there and give him some of your daas torah.

I see an eerie parallel between the answer of R’ Shach & R’ Elazar Ben Azariah in the Halacha and Mishna and Gemara Questions thread. Both are saying (somewhat) Bderech Tz’chok the same answer.

What it seems (L’aniyas Da’ati) what R’ Shach means by his answer:

Did these girls learn the PRACTICAL halachos? How about learning Basar V’chalav & Ta’aruvos, and how to use a single oven “Kosherly” and leaving the Pilpul!

That is a Gadol. Put on the spot by some “punk” (for lack of a better term) girls, he knows the Yerushalmi & gives a similar answer on the spot!

GoldieLoxx, learn to write and maybe I’ll take your points seriously (maybe I’ll even understand what you’re saying, too. Half of that was totally lost on me.)

I do not agree with some of the responses to my opinion, but I respect your right to express them. Just because I respect a Rov, does not mean I have to agree with something condescending that he says in response to a legitimate shailah, especially if I did not ask him a shailah. If every Rov asked a shailah by a girl were to answer as blatatly flippantly as did R’ Shach ZT”L, they would be far less likily to EVER ask that rov any shailahs in the future. If you do not “get” that, then let me assure you that you are remiss in your own thinking. I see women on a regular basis who are going to the mikvah well after the proper time that they may go, because they are intimidated from asking a shailah, because their rov gave them a flippant or annoyed response in the past. Telling a Yeshivah girl that she should be learning how to bake cookies, when in fact she wants to know the answer to a question that was SO clever that her seminary teacher could not answer it, is not the way to handle such a situation. I merely commented that Hillel who was asked truly irritating and stupid questions by a leitz, had the seichel, the sensitivity, and the menschlechkeit to actually answer the questions that were posed, without making the leitz feel stupid. I am sure that leitz had greater respect fro Hille after that encounter, whreas these seminary girls were made to feel really inconsequential. Even a Gadol Hador can make a judgment call that upon greater reflection and with the understanding of how his response might be negatively perceived, might think twice before issuing such a cavalier remark to ANYONE.

We all have bad days, we all make offhand remarks, sometimes (we think) in jest, but SOMEONE takes that remark to heart. Have you any idea how many frum kids are turned off by teachers who speak to them the same way as did R’ Shach? If you were a Yeshivah boy and asked what you thought was a good shailah, would you want to be shot down by your rov? And apparently the shailah was a good one, not a stupid question. And btw, maybe those girls were ALL good bakers. They just wanted a better understanding of a TANACH problem. “That is a Gadol. Put on the spot by some “punk” (for lack of a better term) girls, he knows the Yerushalmi & gives a similar answer on the spot! ” Gavra, without knowing exactly what transpired, neither you nor I can assume the Gadol was “put on the spot” by a punk or anyone else, and it hotzaas shem ra for you to refer to a seminary girl in that way. Their won teacher admitted not knowing the anser, and they had a right to expec that the rov whose aitzah they sought would treat their question with seriousness, and not as something irrelevant because they were GIRLS. What if boys would have asked him that same question?

i assure you Rav Schach was never “flippant” or “condescending”.

you who are less than an ant before such greatness smugly judge him.

the epitome of arrogance , and worse, totally blind foolishness.

shameful, and worse

a true Chillul Hashem

oomis why do you think it was condisending??? you were not there!! why are u dan lkaf zcus to everyone other than to rav shach??

to oomis

1-not surprisingly you miss the point. and as a result of your missed point you are going after R’ Shach. R’ Shach was telling the girls that this question should not be of importance to you. He was giving them hadracha, hashkafa and mussar. Your association of this question to HIllel is comical.

2-Then you take it to the next level saying women are going to be scared asking question (which their husbands should be the one asking) leading them to go to the mikva later (should I even attempt to ask how you know they are going well after their permitted time?).

3-Sad to hear that you feel that doing something for your husband is being made to feel inconsequential the way you say these seminary girls were made to feel.

4- If you know ANYTHING about R’ Shach you’d know that boys would get like responses to questions. If a bochur came asking about a question on the Taz he’d immediately get asked what he was doing learning Taz and he’d be told what he should be doing with his time.

5- nice of you to play the Off the Derech card onto Rav Shach. Real High Class Stuff

to jfem

the point (oomis) is not written respectfully to Rav Shach and the point had nothing to do with the story, so yes, we are objecting.

anonowriter:

MeShom Rayah!?

BS”D

oomis1105:

I believe a boy would have been treated in the same way i.e. something to the point of “go ask your rebbe” or “have your rebbe ask his rebbe”. If the boy (or girl:) had been asked to “talk in learning” then he may have the right to say something. P’shat in Ramban (or anything else) is not an eitzah, and you are wasting the Gadol’s time by asking him without permission.

Either way, your question is not only on R’ Shach, but also R’ Elazer Ben Azariyah from the Yerushalmi in Sotah.

A woman should have a “local” Rav to whom they are comfortable asking Shailos. That Rav may ask another Rav if he is unsure. If she is, in general, not comfortable asking a shaila, her husband should do it for her. Under no circumstances would anyone ask for an audience with a Gadol & then pull out a Kesem.

As such, I don’t see the comparison.

As far as the “Punk” comment, I would call a boy in Brisk the same thing if he dared ask R’ Shach a question in learning without the Rav initiating. This has nothing to do with the boy vs. girl issue, the method of response does.

jewishfeminist02: C”V I am attacking Oomis, I actually agree with her (as I posted above) regarding women learning Shavuos night. However, as with everything else, it must be the appropriate thing for the right reasons, not to be (C”V not you, just as an example) the next Gloria Steinem.

feivel, thank you for your comment. It helped to pull me back down to the ground while I was thinking the other comments through.

I am sorry you feel that way. Even gedolim make mistakes. That does not take away from their being gedolim. To think that they are incapable of making a bad choice in their reaction to a shailah, is elevating them to a level that only Hashem deserves. My opinion stands that IN THIS ONE SPECIFIC INSTANCE, I believe R’ Shach Z”TL answered a legitimate question with a singularly offhanded response, and the girls deserved better treatment than that, if only by virtue of the fact that the shailah was asked with the desire to know the emes. What he did, unfortunately diminished the chashivus in their own eyes, both of the shailah that they asked, and of asking shailahs of any rov, who might similarly make them feel stupid someday. If you truly do NOT understand that very serious point, then unfortunately I cannot make it any clearer. I am sorry that you seem to feel I have little respect for Gedolim. That is simply not true. I have little respect for ANYONE, Gadol, tzaddik, poshut person, am haaretz, Gaon, rasha, ANYONE AT ALL, who treats someone else’s sincere desire to know the answer to something, as a joke, and be patronizing and condescending to them. It does not befit a Gadol whom we regard as the arbiter and role model of menschlechkeit, to even HINT at acting in a way that can be interpreted as hurtful to someone, especially to impressionable young women. If your own daughter would be treated that way, I would hope you would be more compassionate for her sake.

I am moichel you for the attack, because I believe you are sincerely defending the honor of the Gadol. I knew a woman who had a shailah and the rov gave her a quick and short p’sak (assur) because he was annoyed with her. The next day he realized he had done a terrible thing and called the woman to apologize for being short-tempered with her and changed his p’sak (to the correct one). Now THAT is a sign of Gadlus. Agree or disagree, a rov has a greater achrayus than the rest of us to choose his words carefully when someone wants to learn. To tell a Seminary girl she basically only needs to learn how be a good cook, and her inquisitive mind doesn’t need to be nurtured, is wrong, no matter who implies it. How much more so when the person doing the insulting is a rov of such stature. I will not further engage in this particular line of discussion, as it is truly not productive to do so. I stated my feelings, you stated yours – neither of us will change our opinions. Infallibility of one’s religious leaders is a Christian, not Jewish concept.

“Infallibility of one’s religious leaders is a Christian, not Jewish concept.”

NO ONE CLAIMED INFALLIBILITY.

we claimed that it is completely inappropriate for someone whos DasTorah is a speck on the wall in comparison, to sit in judgment and condemn the words of the leader of Klal Yirroel, YOUR leader, appointed by Hashem.

you, who are completely unable to even have a glimmer of what motivates his words; to condemn them, well i have already said what that denotes of your behavior, i do not wish to use such strong words again

i am done, you dont wish to see what you have done, you continue to rationalize your behavior. there will be no end here for you.

Isn’t Rav Shach zt”l quoted as having said that women can learn torah; the issur is a man teaching them torah–meaning forcing them to learn in a school setting. I don’t believe the story with the seminary girls. It does not seem to fit with Rav Shach at all.

there r plenty of stories of people coming to rabonim with shaylos and they wouldn’t answer them even though they knew the answer because all the people were trying to do was stump the rav not actually caring about the answer

I’m leary of the story of Rav Shach. I don’t believe that he would be so flippant – a good wife doesnt need to know how to bake cookies. She needs to know how to run a proper Jewish home (which incidentally, a man really does too). She needs to understand halacha. I personally am not mekabel the story of Rav Shach because I don’t think he would do that to girls who (at least portrayed in the story) just asked a good question in NACH (its not like they were getting into more controversial areas like gemara – a different point to debate). There is much conjecture on both sides and I understand Oomis’ point.

Oomis, I am sorry you were attacked by everyone. It seems like people here cannot accept any criticism on their rabbonim, but feel free to dish it out if its a “more modern” Rabbi.

Ames, to the Beis Medrash point – a Beis Medrash is just really a designated place of learning. At Stern College, they have a room called the Beis Medrash. Its a nice place where the seforim are stored and is condusive to learning (the tables/chairs are appropriate, the seforim are there, the only conversation going on is the learning etc). So, it helps women learn. I am not sure why you take offense to that.

For those of you who cry “feminist!” to Jfem because learning increases her yirei shamayim – that is ludicrous. We all relate to Hashem in different ways and some women are enticed towards learning. You may not feel that way, but she does and its important that she (and other women who apperciate the learning) continue. I am not a hard-core learner by any stretch of the imagination, but I understand that some women are.

Ames, I’m just pointing out that its the same thing. While a real Beis Medrash (like the one Feivel is talking about above) may be different, I don’t think we really have those today. But you want to call it a library? That is fine – except that libraries are usually quiet.

Feivel, most women I know who are very into their learning (and I said most – I do know some women who just want to be exactly like men, but they have other issues as well) do it purely for the pursuit of Torah knowledge. It is how THEY relate best to Hashem and its important for THEIR spiritual growth to keep learning. It has nothing to do with wanting to do what a man does – I personally think thats typical male arrogance of not understanding the quest for knowledge.

Many people thought I was crazy for going into Engineering. There were so many people who told me I was crazy and “math is for men.” But it was what interested ME and what was good for ME. So I proceeded with the educational path that was right for ME. Should I have become a teacher just to fit in with what other people were doing? Not if I wasn’t violating halacha.

There are many true paths to Hashem, and if a woman finds her yirei shamayim increasing because of her learning, why shouldn’t she be learning? Is it better to lose her because you cut off the Torah from her?

Besides, isn’t it a man’s responsibility to provide for his wife? If so, he should be out working, not sitting in Kollel. So there is definitely room for differences in the general gender roles and how everything plays out. Kollel is really a feminist society in disguise.

Feivel, if thats the case, why don’t we demand the proper respect for a Beis Medrash? I’ve heard MANY stories about them that don’t show that we are treating them properly. In fact, from what I’ve heard about the Stern Beis Medrash shows a lot more respect than most men seem to. If you find the term Beis Medrash offensive, feel free to insert word of your choice (Ames chose library – thats fairly appropriate). The term doesnt matter so much – its about creating a proper learning environment.

You obviously have no adequate response for understanding why a woman would want to learn…

“Oomis, I am sorry you were attacked by everyone. It seems like people here cannot accept any criticism on their rabbonim, but feel free to dish it out if its a “more modern” Rabbi.”

Thanks, SJS, but I was only “attacked” by people who feel very strongly about their point of view, which I can understand, though I still disagree with them. I will not respond in kind, because their insulting remarks in a very public forum, says more about them than it does about me. When I disagree with someone, I try to express my opinion without personally attacking the other party. That’s what I was taught by my parents and in Yeshivah. I guess the boys’ Yeshivahs do not consider that to be a vital part of their chinuch. I have already been moichel them for their insulting remarks. Thank you for your concern, though. It is appreciated very much.

Oomis, turning this issue into “I am mochel them” does not exonerate you from the Lashon Hara (L”H because it was false characterization, and not MSR) you gave so freely about Rav Shach.

Oh please! I attacked no Godol, I said I found it hard to believe the story as it was told, and gave the reasons why it would disturb me were this total truth. Give this a rest, please. I was moichel a few boors who without even knowing me, and clearly unable to read what was written,or comprehend that which they did read, ascribed to me the quality of saying L”H, as did you, btw. They proceeded to castigate me publicly, and accuse me of things that I did not mean or even say. They inferred incorrectly that I was derisive of R’ Shach ZT”L. I still hold by my opinion that any rav, much less one to whom an entire generation looks up for guidance as to how to conduct their lives, has an achrayus to be above making petty remarks that make fun of people who turn to him for clarification, and I found it hard to believe that this story took place exactly as described, specifically because R” Shach was such a great Gadol.

If you cannot understand that, there is nothing further that I can really do to help you to understand what I was saying. If you feel compelled to believe that I would chalilah make fun of a Gadol Hador, then I would suggest that whoever it is who was circulating this story is the real bearer of L”H. And by accusing me of snideness when I was simply stating that I am not angry with those who wrote nasty remarks to me, yourself included, you err. I was not being snide. I am not a grudge holder. I went to a shiur tonight that discussed how important mechilah is, even to be given to people who don’t realize they need to ask it. I give it freely. And I am neither more special nor any holier than the rest of you. Perhaps that is something you ought to realize about yourselves, vis a vis other Jews who share opinions differing from your own.

Mods, I wish you would close this thread. It is getting us all nowhere, and generating a lot of negativity.

I agree this thread should be closed, and it perhaps would have been better to close it a while ago, immediately following the negative aspersions cast upon Rav Shach. This is “Yeshiva Word”, and yes, some things are simply inappropriate.

This is not a matter of different Jews’ opinions; this is about how we speak about a Gadol. If you had said this in private to me, I may not have felt the need to reply; posting on a public forum carries a responsibility, and it is vital to mitigate brazenness against our Gedolim in such a forum. You might be well meaning, but a line has been crossed.

Mods, I do think it would be the honorable thing to close this thread. Thank you.

You know, if Jewishfeminist would have called it library, it would not have bothered me at all. I have no issues with women learning. It’s the term Beis Medrash that doesn’t sit well with me. It sounds like the women are trying to be like the men, and that’s not what Hashem wants. Do you think girls who read from the Torah on their Bat Mitzvah are doing something good? I bet their “yiras shamayim” is being strengthened. (that’s sarcasm for those who missed it)

Ames, I think she just called is a Beis Medrash because thats what they are generally called. I don’t think it was a “feminist” line. As for reading the Torah at a Bat Mitzvah – its not something I did (nor want to), but as long as your Rav says its allowed (I think women use a different bracha?) and its something you feel will help your yiras shamayim, then yes, I do think its a good thing.

Feivel, another reason I think a womens Beis Medrash (or library if you prefer) is more likely to get respect is that the people in there are only really serious learners. With men, lots of men go because they feel compelled to or forced or whatever and its not JUST the serious learners.

Interstingly (and somewhat similiar), my rav told me that today there is no real thing as a real shul anymore – he said if they were to classify themselves that way, no one would be able to utter a word (including the Rabbi himself to give a shiur). I don’t know all the details (if anyone else does feel free to fill it in), but thats one reason I was leaning towards a real Beis Medrash doesnt exist anymore.

SJS, Beis Knesses < > Bais Medrash. As GAW said, all shuls that are built today are made with the stipulation that it should have Kedushas Bais Medrash and not Kedushas Bais Knesses. Most are also built without the distinguishing features of a Bais Knesses as well.

squeak and GAW,

Can you tell us what the distinguishing features are for both, and when/why the stipulations began?