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I DONT think the looks/Tznius connection is the main cause/root of deterioration of most marriages. I think over time, people just get too comfortable with their spouses and dont treat them with the same care/dignity they did when they met. I think lots of people are unhappy with their lives in many areas, and their spouses are the most convenient scapegoats (no matter what the spouse looks like).
I think the blaming issue is a major issue, meaning one spouse blaming the other for whats wrong in their life, either outwardly or subconsciously. Imagining that if they would be married to someone else, their lives woud be happier and more problem-free, caused by frustration with their lives, which marriage is only one aspect of (children, career, social standing are some others).
“I can’t argue this point with you, TRS, because you are in pain and I don’t want to cause you more. I just want you to be aware, and others as well, that making excuses for “addicts” of any kind will keep them addicts. They need to be helped to be accountable and responsible.”
aries, you can’t argue, simply because you don’t understand TRS and others in this addiction
No program says that the addict should not be held accountable, the reason they come into program is to get help and to take responsibility for their actions.
I too have worked with many teens with drug and alcohol issues, and I still do, and can assure you that the addictions that these teens have and the ones described before, though they may have been caused by the same underlying reasons, the are very diiferent in many aspects
We are very AWARE
Perhaps you should join an S-anon meeting and you’ll understand better
it’s even more that men and women talk to each other without the barriers people used to have. “
That might possibly be true in terms of the subject matter of their conversations. But I believe that men and women talked far more to each other 50-60 years ago, than they do today. They socialized more together, the men AND women had conversations at different occasions, they sat together at simchas, etc. We did not hear about frum men going after other women, or married women behaving inappropriately with men. And admittedly, those frum women dressed according to standards that would not be considered particularly tzniusdig today (but were considered so then). So if we are the ones who are seeing this problem becoming prevalent TODAY (when women dress much more modestly than in yesteryear when there was very little problem in this area), to what do you believe can we attribute this behavior?
The morality of the secular world has declined & these problems creep in to our world, as well.
1dayatatime, I can tell you are very passionate about the subject, but please don’t assume what I understand and don’t. I don’t appreciate your suggestion although if it helps YOU to understand by all means do so.
I am not presuming to speak like an addiction counselor, which I am not. However, the stronger that you argue that “we don’t understand” the more I realize that you are either an enabler or stuck in the parsha. At any rate Hatzlocha Rabbah.
“if the secretary involved on the story you posted had worn extremely modest clothing, and still became close with and married the rabbi, would you not be equally upset?”
Don’t you think her immodest clothing triggered immodest behavior? And to answer your question: yes, I would’ve been equally upset. But, may I ask, how many of those you know are involved with less than tzniusdike issues are dressed with tznius??
From what I read and heard at diff times, I think that the key to shalom bayis is
Let each other know what you need
Show appreciation to each other
They should focus on their Own resposibilities, so they each do what they need to do. And if one can’t that day, it’s okay because it’s Not a race who does more. Focus on your own task. Of course, if something is bothering you, calmly speak to your spouse.
Make time for each other, even just a moment alone at home.
If you’re upset when a spouse comes home, let them relax first for a while.
And in general, be supportive and appreciative
So… how does one go into a healthy marriage? Like how should I ensure that my marriage (iy”H at the right time) is filled with sholom bayis? Honestly, after reading this thread, I am terrified to get married.
sm29,great!
happiest–it’s not much different than reading an “illness” thread.It’s uncomfortable and sad to hear about people’s suffering.And you wonder about your own health,right?
You eat as healthy as you know how,go to doctors when needed,and hope that you never get seriously ill,chas v’sholom.
Some serious illnesses
can be healed,some require “control measures”(ex.diabetes),and sometimes you can do all the right things,and the doctor will recommend…surgery.
Was that a clear moshol?Or did I just make everything worse?
eclipse- you definitely didn’t make everything worse. It was actually a very good moshul. Thanks!
How would you say I should go into a marriage though? Like what things should I start my marriage off with, what things should I not start my marriage off with?
I don’t know if my question is making sense- but I guess I want to know what people here think add to a marriage and what things take away from a marriage. If this is thread hogging then please ignore.
I wish I would have known early on that every person deserves to feel respected.For the human being that h/she is.
people should work on themselves before marriage. try to be as healthy (emotionally) as can. look for a healthy spouse – not one that you will cure. and remember (though it’s hard to always do so) that we get married to give, not to take.
(but certainly not to take abuse) 🙂
Bina- as the saying goes: marriage is NOT a hospital. (And having a baby together is not a medication for emotional problems.)
Some people think marriage and having a child will solve everything.
smartcookie: i think you’ve eloquently described the biggest problem in shalom bayis today.
mosherose – You are right, but this is one of many reasons. Everything in life boils down to Ruchniyus. Tzinus is but one facet of Torah. Why does everyone always focus only on this aspect?
Menchlichkeit and good midos are essential for sholom bayis!
If you don’t know how to be Mevater, forget about ever getting
married!
eclipse – “I wish I would have known early on that every person deserves to feel respected.For the human being that h/she is.”
Would you have given more respect or demanded more respect?
mosherose – You are right
So, you agree with him that a husband should not be allowed to see his wife’s hair???
The Wolf
Wolf – Please!; but it is brought down such a shittah. A woman didn’t let the walls of her house see her uncovered hair and it says very nice things about it!
it is NOT a shitah al pi Halachah.
a womans hair is not an erva to her husband according to ALL shitahs.
this is a chumra for people that are on a madreiga that our generation cannot even understand, far beyond the letter of the law
Wolf – Please!; but it is brought down such a shittah. A woman didn’t let the walls of her house see her uncovered hair and it says very nice things about it!
It’s one thing to say that it’s a chumra that people might want to consider. It’s another thing to say that a husband seeing his wife’s hair is a cause of shalom bayis problems.
Do you think he’s even remotely right that a man looking at his wife’s hair (a perfectly permitted activity according to EVERYONE except MR) is the cause of shalom bayis problems?
The Wolf
following the halacha cannot cause shalom bayis problems. i would imagine that in most cases people following mrose’s advice would actually cause a shalom bayis problem. don’t add on to the torah. if a person is on that level of kedusha, i am sure they would not be on the internet, even in the CR.
Health–I gave plenty of respect
“demand” respect,no
I would have held out for it,and not allowed the blatant dismissal of it to be tolerated for so long.
P.S.I DID TURN TO OTHERS FOR HELP WITH THAT,AND HE WAS NOT STRONGLY CENSURED FOR IT,ever.
Third parties need to learn to see through the Jekyll and Hyde persona of MOST ABUSIVE PEOPLE.
Wolf – “Do you think he’s even remotely right that a man looking at his wife’s hair (a perfectly permitted activity according to EVERYONE except MR) is the cause of shalom bayis problems?”
I just agreed with his general post, not with every detail. I do believe that sholom bayis problems can come from lack of kedusha in the home, which would include lack of Tzinus.
aries
Hatzlocha, feel better and enjoy your stay in Florida
which would include lack of Tzinus.
Do you think it’s a “lack of Tznius” for a man to see his wife’s hair? Or arms? Or legs?
The Wolf
Lest anyone think I THINK I’m flawless—FAR FROM IT.
But I was ALWAYS working on myself and to this day he is 100% complacent with himself,midos-wise.If you’ve ever lived with someone like that,you know what it’s like.
eclipse – “Health–I gave plenty of respect
“demand” respect,no
I would have held out for it,and not allowed the blatant dismissal of it to be tolerated for so long.”
There is nothing wrong with demanding respect; if you give it, then you should get it.
“Third parties need to learn to see through the Jekyll and Hyde persona of MOST ABUSIVE PEOPLE.”
My ex wasn’t Dr. Jekyll/ Mr. Hyde. Her so-called “ultra-frum friends” are. They will never see (at least in this world), what they really are!
“It’s one thing to say that it’s a chumra that people might want to consider. It’s another thing to say that a husband seeing his wife’s hair is a cause of shalom bayis problems.”
my husband’s most popular line: “oh! did your snood JUST slip off?!”
he says it’s cuz he’s always learning or making brachas….
& btw– it usually does always slip off… 😉 … but I’m not walking around the house like that, I’m on the couch… he’s in another room.
observanteen, “But, may I ask, how many of those you know are involved with less than tzniusdike issues are dressed with tznius??”
Ha. Ask people who have friends or relatives living in the most Ultra neighborhoods, where only the most Ultra Tzniusdik dress is allowed.
Can you judge a book (or anything) by its cover?
Health,by “demand” I meant aggressively–which does not inspire respect.
By “held out” I meant firmly insisting on it….
The difference is subtle but CRUCIAL.
following the halacha cannot cause shalom bayis problems.
That’s not true.
Following halacha can cause shalom bayis problems if both husband and wife aren’t on the same page. Especially if one wants to keep halacha and one doesn’t.
Transgressing halacha may not cause shalom bayis problems if both are on the same page. For example, if both husabnd and wife decide to hit McDonald’s for a cheeseburger, it wouldn’t cause shalom bayis issues.
which would include lack of Tzinus.
Do you think it’s a “lack of Tznius” for a man to see his wife’s hair?
The Wolf
Wolf: No. A man is allowed to see his wife’s hair, BUT, she MUST be careful. She must make sure that others DON’T see it (ex: windowshades are open, answers the door).
BUT, she MUST be careful. She must make sure that others DON’T see it
Yes, I realize that, of course. But MR’s post (at least as I understand it) says that it is wrong if a man looks at his wife’s hair.
The Wolf
Well, he’s wrong. I guess he’s no rav…
Wolf – “Do you think it’s a “lack of Tznius” for a man to see his wife’s hair? Or arms? Or legs?”
It depends on the circumstance.
Some of you might possibly be surprised to know that I virtually never uncover my hair in my home, specifically because someone might be able to see into a window, though it is not really likely, and also because my son or my husband might be making a bracha, etc. I also don’t want to have to scramble for a snood or cap, should someone ring my doorbell. Being head-covered until I am ready to go to sleep, makes life simpler for me.
Mosherose, uh uh.
It depends on the circumstance.
So, please enlighten me. Give me an example of when it is a “lack of Tznius” for a man to see his wife’s hair (assuming alone and not a niddah).
The Wolf
Wolf – “So, please enlighten me. Give me an example of when it is a “lack of Tznius” for a man to see his wife’s hair (assuming alone and not a niddah).”
You actually answered your own question. I tried to be more specific in my post, but when I tried to write it -it was deleted.
SJS – you’re right. a woman is an eizer kinegdo; so when the man is doing something wrong, sometimes there should be “shalom bayis” problems. worst advice i’ve heard was when one spouse was told to have nothing to do with his family in order to save the shalom bayis in his home. (the family was not abusive or intrusive – the wife just couldn’t stand her in-laws).
I did not read this thread from the top, nor did I read all posts. In scanning random posts there seems to be a focus on tsnius (or lack of it) and its impact on shalom bayis.
Someones elses spouse, or even single members of the opposite gender are likely not THE cause of issues, but may be the outlet used. Aino domeh mi shyesh lo pas bisalo, limi shain lo. Perhaps counseling in this area is something couples should look into, so that their spouse doesn’t look to fill his or her sal with forbidden fruit.
apushete yid,true and not true.
A guy can have it all(even by his own admission) and STILL look elsewhere,because he hasn’t gotten rid of old habits of that nature.
I promise you there are hundreds of such cases.
You actually answered your own question.
I don’t think so. My reading of MR’s post (and please correct me if I’m wrong) is that it’s wrong for a man to look at his wife’s hair at *any* time. It should have been obvious that we’re not discussing periods when he can’t*.
The Wolf
* Yes, I know there are plenty of people who say that a man is allowed to view his wife’s hair even when she’s a niddah — but for the sake of argument, let’s just assume that we’re talking about when she’s not a niddah.
apushatayid,
it doesnt matter if it is or isnt THE reason. it exacebrates the reason(s) and makes it worse, when such forbidden behavior is prevalent.
Wolf- I already posted – “I just agreed with his general post, not with every detail.” I don’t agree that it is ossur all the time, unless the person wants to keep that chumra, which a lot of people do.
Shlishi. Yes. It exacerbates the shalom bayis problem. But it is not THE cause of the problem. Fixing all tznius issues will not repair the shalom bayis. The problem needs to be addressed, not exacerbating external factors.
The Gemara Bava Metzia 59a (about 12 lines from the bottom of the page)states that most family argument are over money matters:
???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????
Yet, that is not always the case:
I was once in a restaurant and I said that most “Shalom Bayis” issues revolve around money matters, and the proof, “Show me someone who puts down on the table every Friday before light candles $3,500 cash. I will bet you that there are no arguments in that house”. A man next table turned around to me and said, may I interject. I said “sure”. He said. “I used to put down more than $3,500 every week, and it still didn’t help”.
SJS in NYC How can you post something so totally ridiculous??? No sefer or ORTHODOX RAV can say that elbows may be uncovered!!
Mosherose: Very Nice!!
oomis1105: Today unfortunately is a real yerida in the dor!!!
Botton line:: Hatzlocha to each and every one of you to make your marraige work and to build a real bais neeman byisroel and most important Set a good example for your children: the future doros of Klal Yisroel!!
with all this talk of tzniyus, does anyone see a recurring lack of it in some of these posts. Tzniyus is a midda, it manifests in a persons speech, the privacy of his thoughts not being made public, the dignity in not having to spell everything out. It spills over into other modes of behavior. I’m a little surprised at the seeming lack of education here. surely people need a healthy kosher forum for their feelings thoughts and opinions to be aired, but if this is supposed to be in line with our upbringing, then with all due respect, there are some areas of discussion best left for individual discussions with your rav or mentor.
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