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mytake, there are so many different opinions on tznius. Most frum women do fall in with the most lenient opinions out there. That’s why its hard to take the “if only that woman would cover her knee 100%, I wouldn’t be tempted” complaints seriously.
When you walk down the street, you see plenty of women scantily clad. If the frum woman who’s skirt is mid knee is bothering you, it has nothing really to do with what she is wearing and more to do with your own issue.
And that is aside from which, just because a woman is doing the wrong thing, doesn’t mean it gives the man the right to transgress.
If a woman is a moredes and the man is struggling, he should try to fix the problem that caused the woman to be a moredes. Or seek divorce if that’s unworkable. He shouldn’t blame the woman.
SJSinNYC
Like I said, nobody is innocent here. The same One who commanded men to keep themselves in check when walking in the streets, told the women to maintain a Tznius standard according to halacha when going outside.
He’s the Designer of man, woman, tempation, tznius-all of it. He would know what would work.
Good luck to all of us.
When you walk down the street, you see plenty of women scantily clad. If the frum woman who’s skirt is mid knee is bothering you, it has nothing really to do with what she is wearing and more to do with your own issue.
But that is the truth.
IMHO, that is the fault of the yeshivos & Bais Yaakovs.
Thanks Aries
But like you said, you worked with Drugs and Alcohol
mytake, my Rav allows uncovered elbows. But a yeshivish person cringes at that. Well, that’s your problem not mine. If you have hirhurim for seeing my elbow, I am NOT responsible for following my Rav.
I love the way people throw around the word moredes!
If the guy stays out all night,what is HE,pray tell?
Oh,of course,he’s the “tzadik” that tried to hold it all together!
SJSinNYC
SJSinNYC,
My understanding is that the elbow may be OK to be uncovered, BUT absolutely nothing above that. Therefore if a shirt goes to the elbow (but not including), the lady must not really move her arms so that the sleeve does not move and reveal any part of her upper arm.
Technically your Rav’s psak sounds right to me. Practically the psak sounds rather difficult to implement.
BTW, the same applies to hemlines of a skirt. Even if the hemline goes past the knee, unless a good 6 inches past, the thighs will be uncovered sometimes, esp when sitting.
mytake, there are plenty of rabbonim who allow it. For a sefer, check out R’ Henkin’s sefer on tznius. You won’t agree on it, but that’s ok its out there.
Now that you know there are halachically sanctioned opinions that allow uncovered elbows, look for another excuse.
SJSinNYC
I never heard of this sefer, but you can be sure I will check it out.
SJSINNYC:There are times when a Rav has to choose his battles and “allows” that which if he doesn’t allow WILL BE DONE IN THAT COMMUNITY ANYWAY.
But halacha clearly demands “covered”.
I am not looking down,nor judging,you or your rav.
(I’m busy “recovering” from the ugly memories jolted by the other subjects on this thread!)
SJS:
There is something other than “the yeshiva world”?
Over/under on # of comments to a Scotsmen comment?
SJSinNYC
Thank you for giving the source upon which you base your arguments. I look forward to reading this sefer.
things sure are heating up in the coffee room!
as one of the other comments stated earlier, everyone needs to take responsibility for their own actions. Women who know better and act outside the realm of halacha when it comes to the way they dress will be held accountable by the One Above. Men who do not guard their eyes according to their true abilities will be held accountable, as well.
Adults are expected to do their best to combat their own yetzer hara. Taking personal responsibility is part of being a mature adult.
I heard a well-known rebbetzin say that in addition to getting rewarded for the mitzvah of acting and dressing in a modest way, the woman also gets credit for doing a chesed–she is making it easier for men to avoid viewing things they should not. That said, the purpose of dressing and acting modestly is to promote a woman’s own spiritual self-awareness and growth.
Sjs- don’t act so ignorant. No one here is talking about uncovered elbows. There’s a waaaaay bigger transgression of tznius out there. Not elbows, not knees.
It’s terrible.
Just as a btw, I was by a frum dr. in the morning and was horrified at the lady working there. Many frum men aattend that office, and to see this lady there is BAD. And, no, I will not explain how she looked.
Hash-m YERACHIM!!! This conversation has gone way out of hand!!! This is supposed to be Yeshiva World not the goyishe world!! Let’s all try to be mature and stop pinning the problems on everyone else. Look within your self, you know what is wrong and right!!The ladies are fully aware of what the lack of Tznius means and the men who are looking elsewhere are fully aware of where and what that might lead them to!!!
smartcookie, my response was to mytake’s question on why frum women get defensive on this topic. As a general rule, the women who are dressed “very inappropriately” by frum standards either fall within the most lenient halachic opinions or are slightly outside and definitely not worse than what is seen on the street.
As to men looking at inappropriate materials on the internet, that has little to do with how women dress either. There is a huge problem in the non-Jewish world as well. Wives do not want their husbands watching this stuff. You can’t claim those men don’t see scantily clad women right?
This post as gone way off subject.
Allow me to remind you all that this post was originaly about shalom bayis. It has been hijacked by tznius issues.
I just wanted to mention, that the actual B&W halachos of tznius are few and far between. Most of it is hergush – personal feelings. For examlple, find me the halacha that one should not call a strange person of the opposite gender by their first name. You wont find it. Most People wont do it. Why not? Because it doesnt feel right. it creates familiarity
Most “harchokos” are as a seyog to avoid problems, as are a lot of hilchos Tznius.
I may be wrong, but this is my take on the subject.
Perhaps we could return to original subject or close this one before we have explosions?
I just wanted to mention, that the actual B&W halachos of tznius are few and far between. Most of it is hergush – personal feelings. For examlple, find me the halacha that one should not call a strange person of the opposite gender by their first name. You wont find it. Most People wont do it. Why not? Because it doesnt feel right. it creates familiarity
Most “harchokos” are as a seyog to avoid problems, as are a lot of hilchos Tznius.
Well said.
I don’t see anything inappropriate in this thread, nor do I see a reason to close it.
Once in a while, we’re finally allowed to have a serious conversation here!
yaff80: lack of tznius is one of the MAJOR reasons for shalom bayis problems. this is as on subject as you can get.
yaff80-those gedarim fall under the category of lo sikrivu -or something like that.Read 9 to 5,it covers all those grey areas.
A lot of people aren’t aware that the “fences” are from the Torah.
ok. been at work and i’m somewhat back so i’ll try to respond to whatever i could.
eclipse – i’m sorry i hit a raw nerve – i hope you are moichel me.
aries – a-i’m not saying my husband is not at all at fault, nor am i blaming other women. obviously, he should have gotten help before we got married, but what does it help me to harp on that? will that help my shalom bayis? will that solve his problem now? besides, as one day at a time said, he didn’t realize he had a problem. also, many men with this addiction apparently mistakenly believe that marriage will cure their addiction. and he didn’t tell me until now, because he (again mistakenly) believed he could cure himself and i would never have to know about it. and no, i’m not blaming women for the way they dress, but i think if they would realize what they are doing when they dress that way, they might think again.
to really smile–all that happens happens for a reason.
I wonder if any readers will do anything differently having been made aware of the pain caused by those who rebuff women with SERIOUS COMPLAINTS. If one person will,it was worth it.
and no, i’m not blaming women for the way they dress
To really smile: And why not?
aries – “Bochur, you have a very good point. It is NOT an addiction, obviously they CAN live without it and will not go through withdrawal without it. It is a person who is not in control of his/her yetzer horah. And you can’t fault someone else for that.”
Like 1 day at a time said, you obviously don’t know anything about this kind of addiction. Since I put on a white-list filter on my internet (so as NOT to enable his addiction), he has experienced withdrawal.Yes, it’s getting better, but it was bad. point being – it IS an addiction. and an addiction IS someone who is not in control like you said. and no, you can’t fault someone else for the addiction but you may (and i didn’t say you should) fault someone for feeding the addiction. i.e. putting an alcoholic beverage in front of an alcoholic. of course. u didn’t cuase the person to be an alcoholic, but u did make things worse…
my take – i have no idea why women get defensive. either they are not comfortable enough with themselves that they feel a need to dress the way they do and/or they are not completely aware of how men tick. everyone else- let me clarify – i’m not saying that it’s the woman’s fault that the men look, but it may be their fault if the man looks again.
I heard this story first hand:
An Orthodox Rabbi had a FRUM female secretary with whom he was very close. One nice day, he divorced his wife and married this woman!!! She was very attractive and wore less than modest clothing.
Wonder why this almost NEVER happens to yeshivish or chassidish people? Is it because we’re “NARROW MINDED”, and do as the chazal say?
Lack of Tznius can test even the best relationship.
Addictions to hotlines/sites etc.STAY WITH A PERSON UNLESS HE WORKS ON HIS YIRAS SHOMAYIM.Beg Hashem for it–if you REALLY want to change!
“…if the man looks again.”
Well-put,ma’am!
Observe- whaaaat???
I WISH you were right. It’s heartbreaking.
I’m Chassidish, and I cannot count how many such stories there are in our community.
Very unfortunate, but perhaps you don’t know everything that’s going on around you. Better this way.
Smartcookie: did it happen with a rav? Does a chassidish rav have a female secretary at all?
Two frum ple I know from Canada chose “secretary over wife”.I used to babysit for one of those families.It shakes you up.
Observe- I wouldn’t call that man a Rav. Every second person is a Rav these days.
But his OFFICIAL title is “Rabbi”. Do you think that would happen to someone you consider your Rabbi/Rav?
Observe- I don’t get the point of your question.
I know of many such cases. Such people are not fit to be a Rabbi. I don’t care who calls them Rav.
If it would happen to my Rav(never would!), then I would lose my whole respect for him.
I can’t argue this point with you, TRS, because you are in pain and I don’t want to cause you more. I just want you to be aware, and others as well, that making excuses for “addicts” of any kind will keep them addicts. They need to be helped to be accountable and responsible. As for the rest of us WE have to be responsible and accountable as well. WE can’t change others only ourselves and we can’t control others only ourselves.
You need to find out who the “real”,sincere tzadikim are,
and stick with them.
My kids,because of what we’ve been through,
will sometimes ask me:
“Is he a REAL tzadik?”
We have many “real” and truly holy tzadikim smiling down at us from our dining room walls,so they KNOW FOR SURE that not everyone called Rabbi with a beard makes trouble!
I heard this story first hand:
An Orthodox Rabbi had a FRUM female secretary with whom he was very close. One nice day, he divorced his wife and married this woman!!! She was very attractive and wore less than modest clothing.
Wonder why this almost NEVER happens to yeshivish or chassidish people? Is it because we’re “NARROW MINDED”, and do as the chazal say? “
Whew! Where to begin???? Observateen – What makes you think this never happens among the people you describe? I am not going to educate you to the facts of real life, but I personally know of situations that are less than tzniusdig, that involve people in that demographic, just as it does across the board. Nobody gets a pass from their Yetzer Hara.
Let me ask you a question – if the secretary involved on the story you posted had worn extremely modest clothing, and still became close with and married the rabbi, would you not be equally upset?
The Rambam at the end of Hilchot Isurai Biah (22:17) mentions that this kind of stuff happens in every community occasionally.
???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????, ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????.
I want to change the subject a little.
I think that one of the causes of Shalom Bayit is that each spouse has expectations that are not realistic. She may have unrealistic monetary expections, while he may have unrealistic expectations for things at home.
I have also heard that many women feel that once they are married, they can open up to their husbands with whatever they are feeling. Well, sometimes that comes off as verbal attacks. Men might do this some times also.
I (indirectly) heard from the Mashgiach of Lakewood, that peace is not the lack of war, it is the opposite of war. War is the concerted effort to not get along and to hurt. Peace is therefore the concerted effort to get along. It takes work.
shlishi – “yaff80: lack of tznius is one of the MAJOR reasons for shalom bayis problems”
I think you are sadly mistaken; Halevi it should bother the men when the woman doesn’t dress Tzinus.
eclipse – “They fault you for everything.If they don’t fault you,they defend him.
Example:
Me:My husband raises his fist at me when we disagree.
Rav:Did he actually hit you?
Me:No,but it’s pretty scary!
Rav:Well,THIS IS THE WAY A MAN GETS ANGRY.The main thing is he didn’t HIT you.”
I can’t understand how anybody can raise a fist at anyone, especially a wife, unless it’s in self-defense!
Self-defense? Not quite!It was terrifying.
eclipse – I wasn’t talking about you, I was talking in general.
I got hit, but never hit except in self-defense.
Oy.
Howbout a new threaad:
Tips to enhance our Shalom Bayis? 🙂
i haven’t read every post, so forgive me if i say something that someone else has said. But i don’t think it’s just the way women dress; it’s even more that men and women talk to each other without the barriers people used to have. Eclipse, you mentioned once how some men spoke to you about getting their wives to be more positive. THAT is so un-tznius on the men’s part. Couples need to be tznius and not joke around or talk personally to a married person of different gender!
But stop only blaming the women! it shouldn’t be that after having 5 or 6 kids, the husband expects the wife to look like she did when she was just married. That’s sick! There is something wrong with the husbands if that is the case – usually, it’s that they’ve seen things they shouldn’t have seen. they have the problem; not the women! (though we have the responsibility of not putting an obstacle in their path – so women should dress, walk and talk modestly!)
binah-there were no follow-up conversations,trust me!
smartcookie–super idea!!
eclipse – good for you. but i wasn’t criticizing you – i was criticizing them. how could they have such a lack of tznius and ask you that?!?
smart cookie – i second the motion.
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