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I will be interviewing with a couple of Israeli companies in Tel Aviv in the coming days. Does anyone have any tips for getting past the handshake? My usual technique is to smile, say “Sorry! I’m religious – I don’t shake” and then keep talking, which generally removes the awkwardness from the situation. However, in Israel,
(a) my Hebrew is rusty, so I can’t keep talking afterwards, and
(b) most of the people involved will be non-frum Jews, which makes them much more likely to be offended.
Any ideas? (If it matters, I am female.)
Why do you think non frum jews would be more offended than gentiles?
Because non-frum Jews are often more anti-Semitic than gentiles.
Actually, many non-frum Israelis know about it. In fact, the secretary in a former workplace of mine once told me that she does not extend her hand to observant men. Your rusty Hebrew is a much bigger problem unless you are interviewing for an “English-speaking job” (e.g. dealing with international business). In America someone who does not speak good English will not get a decent job except in a company owned by people who speak his first language so too in Israel.
What do you base that on Joseph? please state a source not just your opinion thank you.
Am I not entitled to share an opinion, Goq?
Source: Anecdotal observation. Pew Research scientific study not yet conducted.
In my experience, Avi K is right. In Israel, I’ve rarely had a woman extend her hand to me in a business situation.
an Israeli Yid
In Israel, I’ve rarely had a woman extend her hand to me in a business situation.
aIY: In the rare circumstances you did have it extended, how did you react?
In Israel, if you look religious, most members of the opposite sex will know not to extend their hand. In the rare case that they do extend their hand or if you have to travel to chutz la’aretz for meetings (as I do), I usually say with a smile “Im sorry, I only touch my wife’s hand” – in your case, husband. The woman then usually apologizes to me for being culturally insensitive! When they apologize, I usually say something to the effect of “don’t apologize – I am the crazy one.”. It’s actually a good ice breaker and if you are in sales (as I am) it certainly helps them remember you.
B’hatzlacha.
“In Israel, I’ve rarely had a woman extend her hand to me in a business situation”
I am curious, in Israel do the men extend a hand in business situations?
Joseph, that in itself is an anti-Semitic comment.
Nisht,
They’re probably old army buddies and, if that’s the case, they kiss each other on both cheeks. If not, then probably a good ole handshake will probably suffice.
Nechomah, only the French and Ethiopians do that. Israelis hug each other.
Joseph – In such cases, I followed the Psak of my Rav – as every Shomer Torah uMitzvos should do.
an Israeli Yid
aIY: What was the ruling of your rabbi for this?
I heard from Rabbi Shea Chaitovsky, that Rav Scheinberg used to suggest that you sneeze covering your mouth with that hand. No one will expect you to then shake hands. Another suggestion I’ve been given is to wear a bandage on the right hand whenever ‘necessary’.
5miyodeya, I wrote that if it is an “English-speaking” position being Hebrew-impaired will not make a big difference. However, if I were hiring for a position where people would have to participate in meetings and deal with Hebrew documents I would consider it a major black mark. In any case, you really should make an effort to learn and use Hebrew. Just as one who plans on living in America has an obligation to learn and use English so too one who plans to live in Israel should learn and use Hebrew.
“aIY: What was the ruling of your rabbi for this?”
anIsraeliYid, please reply, especially if your Rav told you there are situations where you may shake a woman’s hand.
You’ll make Joseph’s day since he’ll find grounds to criticize you, your Rav and your entire kehilla, none of whom he ever met. A true trifecta!
Joseph – it was a Psak given to me in my personal circumstances, and is not necessarily the Psak that would be given to others. As such, not to put too fine a point on it, it is none of your business.
Oh – and the Rav I asked was Rav Yisrael Belsky ZT”L (it still hurts to put that abbreviation after his name).
an Israeli Yid
Are you worried someone will read your psak in the CR, if you post it, and use it as his own?
Joseph, you know he’s right. What is your point in harrassing him for his personal psak that was not meant for the public?
Thank you, YW Moderator-29.
I’m happy to share general Halachic discussions and “public” Piskei Halacha. Ones that are based on personal circumstances are nobody’s business (especially not a Yenta/provocateur like Joseph).
an Israeli Yid
According to Rabbi Moishe Dovid Lebovits in his recent sefer Halachically Speaking 3 (YWN has many excerpts on this site of the earlier parts of the series), Rav Belsky was very stringently opposed to shaking a woman’s hand.
He also cites poskim who forbid accepting (or giving) change directly from a woman (i.e. a cashier) since there is a concern of touching, and say the change should rather be placed on the table.
Thank you, Joseph Yenta Pesha, for your cite of a Sefer. If that’s what you want to follow, please feel free to do so. I will follow the individual Psak that I received when I asked a She’elah (which may or may not be in accordance with what you state).
And yes, it’s still none of your business.
an Israeli Yid
Who was talking about you in the last comment? It was referencing a public psak by Rav Belsky. The world doesn’t revolve around aIY. You said you’d be happy to share “public” Piskei Halacha, and I did the same.
I know someone with a private psak to violate clear out-and-out halacha due to individual circumstances. I’m not sharing that either.
“The world doesn’t revolve around aIY.”
That’s right, it revolves around Joseph. Please remember that for next time, aIY!
Oh come on. Joseph was citing a Sefer that quoted a Psak from R’ Belsky that seems to be the exact opposite of the one aIY says he got from R’ Belsky. That’s quite a fair point – no need for insults.
Even if aIY did indeed get this psak from R’ Belsky (nothing personal, aIY – I just take everything I read on an anonymous internet forum with a grain of salt), it should be clear that this was an exception to R’ Belsky’s normal psak on the issue.
Joseph, can you cite the page number?
Joseph was citing a Sefer that quoted a Psak from R’ Belsky that seems to be the exact opposite of the one aIY says he got from R’ Belsky. That’s quite a fair point – no need for insults.
That’s very presumptuous of you. You are willing to make a statement that Joseph is quoting a sefer with a Psak that is opposite of a psak that was not even revealed to you. AiY was clear that he was not interested in sharing the words of the Rav, and yet you are going to defend Joseph for merely pointing out that it contradicts the written psak.
That is an inappropriate leap, and your desire to defend Joseph should not blind you to accuracy at someone else’s expense.
mw13,
Even if aIY did indeed get this psak from R’ Belsky (nothing personal, aIY – I just take everything I read on an anonymous internet forum with a grain of salt), it should be clear that this was an exception to R’ Belsky’s normal psak on the issue.
1. We don’t know what anIsraeliYid’s psak was, so there’s no way to comment one way or the other whether it was in accordance with Rav Belsky’s “normal” psak or not. In fairness to your assumption, anIsraeliYid does seem to be making a strongly implied juxtaposition, but he softens it with a parenthetical statement.
3. I agree 100% with anIsraeliYid that a personal psak should not be publicized, whether it is strict or lenient, and I feel uncomfortable with the entire exchange between him and Joseph.
why don’t you hand them your business card
this way you accomplish 2 things at once
apology and retraction accepted
AiMD:
We don’t know what anIsraeliYid’s psak was, so there’s no way to comment one way or the other whether it was in accordance with Rav Belsky’s “normal” psak or not. In fairness to your assumption, anIsraeliYid does seem to be making a strongly implied juxtaposition, but he softens it with a parenthetical statement.
I had thought that aIY had said that he got a psak that he could shake a woman’s hand in certain situations. However, looking back at the thread more carefully, I see that this was never clearly stated.
Mod-29:
That is an inappropriate leap, and your desire to defend Joseph should not blind you to accuracy at someone else’s expense.
I assure you that I have no blind loyalty to Joseph – I would have thought that to be obvious to anybody who follows this forum. But what does irk me to no end is when people follow a psak that is mere hearsay, often taken out of context, and usually distorted, broken-telephone style, by the many transmissions. This especially irks me when this hearsay psak that Rabbbi X may or may not have ever said explicitly contradicts a written psak that that same Rabbi wrote down for posterity. We just had this not too long ago with R’ Moshe, where somebody on this forum quoted a hearsay psak in the name of R’ Moshe that was clearly the opposite of what R’ Moshe paskened in Igros Moshe.
So I commend aIY for not causing one of these situations, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.
And BTW Mod-29, while we’re throwing around the term, I think it’s a bit presumptuous of you to assume that I am motivated by a desire to defend Joseph, and that that is what caused me to misunderstand aIY.
Sorry, it’s a recurring theme. And actions speak louder than words.
Maybe you’re in denial.
mw13: To demonstrate your non-loyalty, you’re hereby commanded to, within the next 30 days, find a topic to publicly disagree with me on.
I like that one: “And actions speak louder than words.”
Pray tell, whoever, what actions go on here OTHER than words??
mw13 – Apology accepted.
Note that the Psak I received (which I have not disclosed) was not a “hearsay” Psak – I personally asked Rav Belsky the She’ela when I was starting to look for a job after spending time in Torah Voda’as’s Kolel. He gave me a Psak based on my personal circumstances, and went through both his reasoning and its application in various situations. When “new” situations came up, I’d call him up to clarify, and he was always gracious and accommodating with his time.
As to the Piskei Halacha of Rav Belsky brought by Rabbi Moishe Dovid Lebovits – you should note that these are often somewhat simplified, and I’d hesitate to treat them as definitive Halacha L’Ma’ase. I mean no disrespect to Reb Moishe Dovid (whom I know from my time in Yeshiva), but I was in Rav Belsky’s Chulin Shiur for two years (part of the Smicha program), and remained close to him thereafter – and some things brought in Reb Moishe Dovid’s writings do not convey the nuance of Piskei Halacha that Rav Belsky explained in Shiur. That’s why it is so important for people to go ask individual She’elos directly from a Rav.
an Israeli Yid
Yet, dear aIY, you above commented that “I’m happy to share general Halachic discussions and “public” Piskei Halacha.” Surely you cannot fault others for, too, sharing public Piskei Halacha.
A few posts (I’m sure there are more) demonstrating that mw13 is not a Joseph loyalist:
Joseph,
Yet, dear aIY, you above commented that “I’m happy to share general Halachic discussions and “public” Piskei Halacha.” Surely you cannot fault others for, too, sharing public Piskei Halacha.
I’m not sure if anIsraeliYid would make the same distinction or not, but I’d think that something a rav said in a public shiur would be fine to bring up and discuss here, with the caution of course that much of the nuance may be lost, and the information is hearsay. Sharing a personal psak is something completely different, because it is something tailor made for the recipient, and is usually given in a private setting.
Avram: So if, say, Rav Belsky has a public psak halacha where he holds it assur to copy a friend’s music CDs, should a cautionary note be made when publicly relating said psak that the nuance may be lost, the information is hearsay and a private psak from him may differ?
Joseph,
So if, say, Rav Belsky has a public psak halacha where he holds it assur to copy a friend’s music CDs, should a cautionary note be made when publicly relating said psak that the nuance may be lost, the information is hearsay and a private psak from him may differ?
1. The issue of copying CDs is intrinsically less complex and nuanced than the issue in this thread.
2. I’m certainly not advocating for cautionary labels on any posts discussing piskei halacha. Just an awareness that an actual conversation with a rav or attendance at a shiur will give one much more insight than posts in an Internet forum.
The issue of copying CDs is intrinsically less complex and nuanced than the issue in this thread.
Au contraire. The issue in this thread is, according to some poskim including the Chazon Ish, literally yehareg ve’al ya’avor. The personal copying is, according to some (including published psak), muttar.
1) That has nothing to do with nuance.
2) According to many (if not most) poskim, including published psak, copying is gezel which is quite chamur (we say ???? ???? ????? ?????? at the climax of Yom Kippur).
According to many (likely the vast majority of) poskim, non-tangibles don’t fall under gezel.
Not true. In fact, I know of one rav who used to be mattir, until, after speaking to several of the gedolei haposkim, retracted.
I’m almost sure Rav Elyashev paskened intangibles don’t fall under gezel (but are covered under dinei d’malchusa).
I’m almost sure not.
Someone who repairs computers must at time erase the entire drive and reload the programs one by one. What happens when the customer did not legally purchase these programs. Is it permissible to restore what the customer had originally?
Rav Elyashiv: It is absolutely forbidden and even if he will lose his customers he must search for a new manner in which to make a living.
Also, U.S. copyright law (probably most other countries as well) prohibit copying, even for personal use (except for fair use exceptions, which does not allow copying what you didn’t buy).
What you quoted doesn’t address if the underlying reason is dina d’malchusa (which would make it prohibited) or gezel.
Perhaps, but it would still be assur according to both R’ Elyashiv and R’ Moshe, and we know that R’ Moshe called it gezel.
I don’t know of anyone of the stature of either who was mattir.
See Beis Yitzchak Y.D. 2:75 about intangible items not having any status as property and Pischei Choshen, Geneivah, p. 287, where he is lenient about copying tapes for personal use.
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