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Does Having a degree guarantee you a job forever?
Nothing guarantees anything. But with a degree you have a much better chance of being employed… and at a higher salary.
The Wolf
I dont think anyone is trying to change society, But everyone could use some changes…
Now I’m really confused (this time I made sure not to read too fast and transpose words): I thought the age gap was the issue. Or is the (a) major factor that the girls blamed themselves? How did this manifest itself?
everyone could use some changes…
Maybe… but the changes you are proposing are quite radical.
The Wolf
Rochelle:
“Why I take it to heart”.
My siblings are married, my siblings in law are marreid, my cousing of eligble age are all married and I have no children in or close to shidducim.
Why do you think I take it to heart?
Rochelle:
Why do you think the chassidim don’t have a shidduch crisis? (they actually have a slight boy problem) but why don’t they have the Agunos and Akaros problem? That’s a very good question. How badly do you care to know the answer?
Squeak: In fact Rav Shmuel personally used similar terminology to me when we discussed the issue. What you don’t understand is the terminology is not a way to encourage boys to marry them. Who would want to marry a “nebach” anyway??
Wolf: I guess you are smarter than The Ballei Tosafos and rav shteinman who clearly equated the two.
OOMIS: I will encouarage ALL yeshovos to edit their Gemaros Kiddushin and block that line of TOSAFOS. In addition someone should go to Rav Shteinman and let him no that Oomis disagrees with what he choose to write in the KOl KOREI.
What you fail to undersand dear Oomis is as follows.
THE BEST THING FOR THESE GIRLS IS FOR THE COMMUNITY TO SEE THEIR DEVASTATING SITUATION FOR WHAT IT IS AND NOT I REPEAT NOT SUGAR COAT IT. SUGAR COATING IT IS HURTING THE GIRLS NOT HELPING THEM
Bodek: how badly to you want me to tell you the secret powers that YOU posses.
Tzippi: The girls are absolutely NOT the problem. BUT the first thing they can do is to stop blaming themselves.
Then and only then we can discuss unleashing the secret power they have.
IT is THE power that will solve the crisis.
AZ, this is taking this to an entirely different level. Can’t wait to see future developments. (How long do you think they’ll take?) I don’t know what else there is to say.
(Though would you mind telling us if Rav Shmuel shlita used the word akara?)
Tzippi: Probably as long as it takes for the community to realize the FULL EXTENT of the trageds.
AD HASOIF MAMASH. with NO sugar coating whatsoever!!
Then and only then will the change happen.
And when that happens the change will be VERY VERY swift in coming..
And THEN the girls will have a yeshua.
THIS and ONLY THIS is their true HOPE.
NOTHING ELSE WHATSOEVER
AZ – You should also be promoting the marriage of Chasidishe boys (as there are extra) with Litvishe girls (as there are extra.) However much (and it WILL help somewhat) this reduces the number of Litvishe agunas and akaros that much better.
Where are you on this issue?
I am on the issues of SOLVING the problem (not that I disagree with you). To SOLVE the problem The girls need to be EMPOWERED and they should realize they are NOT at fault for the devastating tragedy being done to them.
When we get there we can discuss step two.
AZ –
“(not that I disagree with you)”
So you agree my point is valid and my solution is good.
“I am on the issues of SOLVING the problem”
This IS a partial SOLUTION to the problem. Why is it not being promoted any less than the other solution of reducing the age gap. Both work towards solving the same problem, and both can work together simutaneously. Why is one solution that WILL reduce what you call agunas and akaros being left off the table right now?
This should be part of step 1, not pushed off to step 2. I’m sure we can all agree better a shaved head than lifelong agunahs and akaros.
Girls need everyones support and really HaKadosh Baruch Hu Has the ultimate plan. Every one should daven, use the time to become better people, help each other out- chesed-, they have many opportunities at this stage of life since they are capable individuals with a unique role. They can and should do whatever they can to keep busy and not let their single”ness” takeover their lives.
The key is contact everyone they know and let them know your out there because you never know someones bound to know someone! Really contact everyone and have parents, friends do the same it should be a project while you’ll living life!
AZ, do what you want. The kind of attitude you display is one which I have seen in many guys. They have such a need and zeal to be right, that they quote gemaras and p’sukim, seforim, and Gedolim to support their point, but fail to understand that ALL of that does not make the particular point that they are fighting so HARD to prove, to be appropriate. I do not have to speak to Rav Shteinman, to know that at least one single woman here has already expressed dismay at your use of that loshon, yet you stubbornly continue to cling to the expression of agunos and akaros, KNOWING it hurts some posters hear to be compared to them, and ALSO knowing that it has been pointed out to you that agunos and akaros would likewise be hurt by your comparison of their tragedy to that of a girl not yet meeting her zivug (which is difficult enough on its OWN merits). Onaas devarim is very serious. Most people in this day and age do not refer to anyone as an agunah unless she is unable to be freed from her marriage, and no one calls a woman an akara unless she is infertile. However many times you are told that, you stubbornly insist what you insist, and it matters little HOW many Gemaras or rabbonim you quote in this specific isntance. I have known guys with that same middah, and it is not a good one for anyone to have.
I don’t know if you are married or not (hope you are), but if not, you might want to consider that knowing when to graciously admit you “might” be mistaken about doing something (even if in your heart you feel you are right),might be good practice for compromise in a future relationship.
AZ: There are a lot of people who like to argue for the sake of arguing. I believe you might be one of those people.
You say you have a secret that will alleviate the problem, yet you won’t share it. If you are really as concerned about all the single women as you claim to be, and if you really know some way to alleviate the problem that hasn’t yet been made known, you would be shouting it from the rooftops and buying billboards.
Instead, you just keep repeating your age gap mantra and using hurtful words that don’t help. You’ve said Tosafos used the word “aguna” in the Gemorah. Yet, for those of who don’t regularly learn Gemorah, and don’t have one handy, you have refused to provide the entire quote so that we can see the context. Is there something you are afraid to reveal? Like perhaps the issue isn’t as clear-cut as you make it out to be?
If you have a REAL solution, please provide it. If the Tosafos is as you say, please provide the entire quote in context (in English please) so we can all see where you are coming from.
If not, then just admit you are arguing for the sake of arguing and we can all get on with our lives.
“THIS and ONLY THIS is their true HOPE.
NOTHING ELSE WHATSOEVER”
You lost me there, maybe you’re taking it just a bit too far?
Bored Jewish guy, are you new here? You obviously don’t know AZ.
Volvie: Correct and what action have YOU taken to make it happen.
Shaindel: WRONG WRONG WRONG. Girls do NOT need anyone’s support. The last thing they need is more false hope.
Haifa Girl: How badly are you interested or is it limiting to posting on the cr…. I for one am NOT interested in arguing for the sake of arguing. I want one thing and one thing ONLY
mybat: When it becomes clear B’rochel Bitcha Hakitana that what I am saying is KULO EMES, then and only then can we have TRUE hope of getting these girls married.
oomis: and what if I’m a girl??
AZ, if you’re a girl I am impressed that you have such ready access to the ears of so many gedolim and askanim.
Oomis, Haifagirl, let the terminology go. AZ’s going in a whole new direction and I think that this is what we should encourage. Don’t know about you all but my inquiring mind wants to see Act II unfold.
Wolf: I guess you are smarter than The Ballei Tosafos and rav shteinman who clearly equated the two.
Re: the ba’alei tosfos — meanings change over time. Before 100 years ago, the word “agunah” had different connotations than they do today.
Re Rav Shteinman — I never said I was smarter than he. Nonetheless, the fundamental difference that I pointed out *does* exist — or do you deny that?
The Wolf
Wolf: No Two agunos are ever in the exact same situation. There are various factors that create a tremendous obstacle to their ability to get married.
1. husband is lost
2. husband is mentally incapacitated
3. there is no boy for the girls to marry
4. Husband is recalcitrant
and many othere factors
YOU have decided to arbitrally deifne it by a halachic impediment.
The Ballei Tosafos and Rav Shteinman diagree with you
Do you deny that?
And the no boy scenario is
a) effects exponentially far far more people (the bad news)
b) is eminently solvable (the good news) and the TRUE HOPE for the girls.
Tzippi: how badly to you want to see act II
Az: I dont think there is anyone that doesnt realize the full extent of the crisis. Recognizing it as a crisis and actually solving it do NOT go hand and hand. People understand and they still have to be willing to look the other way for themselves. If you are a girl, my question was answered, i would also take it very personally if it was me in the center.
Besides didn’t you ever hear of the saying ‘ Where there is hope there is life’?
Do you deny that?
Until you can show me the Tosfos, I think I just might be somewhat skeptical.
The Wolf
You know something, AZ, don’t bother responding… it doesn’t matter.
It’s silly to argue with you on whether they should be called “agunos” or not. You want to call them that — then fine. I think you’re wrong, but you’re free to do as you wish.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree. I not going to argue over terminology with you.
The Wolf
3. there is no boy for the girls to marry
Where is this stated?
What is meant, that in a particular time and situation of war, or some other unusual circumstances there is literally no male available for marriage? Or that there are millions of males available but she is having difficulty finding a suitable one?
Can you please clarify where that is stated and to what it is referring.
Thank you.
Rochelle:
It is as clear as the day that we are woefully short or realizing the full extent of the crisis. And I have rock solid evidence to prove it.
Where there is FALSE hope there is frustration, depression, devastation and hopelessness NOT what I call LIFE
Wolf: How badly to you really want to know where the Tosafos is. Because it is there.
YW MOD 80. This is right here right now in OUR COMMUNITY.
Do want to know where it is stated??
No, thanks anyway, I think I’ll relax.
I do think you should not use those terms (in that manner) here anymore however, as it bothers quite a few other posters, including me. If you want to use them elsewhere, go ahead.
Thanks
Wolf: How badly to you really want to know where the Tosafos is. Because it is there.
OK, so please show me where.
The Wolf
AZ: I’m getting pretty annoyed with your replies to all questions
“how badly do you want an answer to your question”
if we didn’t want answers and we didn’t want them badly, we wouldn’t post the questions in the first place.
Since you profess to be such an expert on the shidduch crisis, we posed our questions to you.
If you do not have answers, it might be a good idea to just admit it – not all questions have answers you know…
Wolf not so fast. I need you to show me how interested you are.
Bodek: fair enough.
Contact NASI and I’m sure they can help you (i will give them the heads up that someone very interested and potentially very helpful will be contacting them).
If you can’t be bothered to figure out how to contact them, then I guess you just don’t want to know the answers badly enough.
Posting on the CR is easy.
AZ, I’ve seen some quality trolling in my time – hey, I’ve even done some myself. But you take the cake. Not in terms of quality, per se, but in stakes. Who else takes advantage of a topic like shidduch crisis and uses it to aggravate and frustrate so many people?
You say you have a LIFE – why don’t you go back to it? Now.
Everyone else: Don’t feed the troll.
if I were AZ this would be my next post:
you know i am quite sure of my position on the matter of the proper usage of these terms, however i can see i am not convincing anyone. as a matter of fact i can see i am antagonizing a great number of people here in the CR.
now since i have stated the only reason i am trying to convince anyone of anything here is because i want to help these girls and not just to win arguments about ancillary issues, and by antagonizing the very people i wish to enlist in my cause to help these girls, i am hurting the cause.
therefore although i am right and everyone else is wrong, it is more important that i gather as many people as possible to my cause and therefore i will try my best to stop antagonizing the very people i am trying to enlist to help these girls by not calling them agunos, at least in the CR.
Wolf not so fast. I need you to show me how interested you are.
AZ, I’m not your mouse for you to play with me on the end of your claws. I’m through with this game.
If you don’t want to show me where the Tosfos is, then fine, don’t show me. But I don’t have to believe it exists simply because you say it does. For that matter, the same applies to the quote by Rav Shteinman — and you know what… until you show me otherwise, I’m inclined to believe they’re both fakes. Show me I’m wrong and I’ll gladly retract.
So, it comes down to this: back up your statements with some actual proof (aside from “I said so”) or else just count me out.
The Wolf
Wolf: Count yourself out.
In fact both questions you asked were already answered in the CR more than once. The Tosafos in this very thread. Since the question doesn’t bother you to even attempt to look for a answer I won’t bother either.
Here’s a simple rule.
When people really want to know a answer they will search.
If they don’t search they don’t really care.
If they don’t really care, they certainly won’t be part of the solution.
The shidduch crisis WILL be SOLVED when the MASSES are SEARCHING for the answer.
not theorizing, not pitying, not pointing fingers, not posting on the CR but SEARCHING for answers like Shlomo Hamelech writes in Mishlei.
The NASI Project (whose mission I respect greatly and thus spend time in the CR furthering their goals,)
HAS been searching, and their efforts and RESULTS to date speak for themselves
as attested to in this very forum by girls themselves.
AZ
please give your sources, or research them then give them, or say you forgot where they are or i dont want to be bothered looking up the sources, or something.
to say: prove to me that you are worthy then ill tell you how to investigate and who can perhaps provide the sources is the ultimate in EDITED especially when these sources are being asked for for YOU to defend YOUR position.
do you think everyone cant see right through that EDITED ploy?
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