Shadchanus – How Much?

I heard a Posek say the amount should be enough so that the matchmaker would be happy with it. The shachanis should be given before the chasana.

oomis1105

Just curious you suggest $100 to hire a shadchan. How many hours of the shadchans time do you think that should buy? How many phone calls should that rewuire her to make on on the girls behalf? How much time speaking to the girls and her parents. I’m sure in you proffesion $100 buys UNLIMITED access to your time and skills.

When you realize the time energy and effort it takes to get even ONE date off the ground I believe you will sing a different tune..

Lets all face the facts. We feel totally justified in taking total ADVANTAGE of shadchanim….

That is just plain WRONG!!

Most important, the services of a shadchan are optional. No one forces you to use them. You can make a shidduch yourself, if you like.

I understand the point of the thread, though.

If you use the services of a professional shadchan, you are creating an implicit contract, and the shadchan deserves to be paid.

I think the question was originally asked because the shadchan’s fees are not posted. This too, is unfair. I’ve always disliked people telling me, “oh, just pay me what you think is fair.” I prefer the vendor to tell me his price, then I can choose to accept, negotiate, or go elsewhere.

If a payment is required for honest labor, which this is, please tell me in advance what that fee will be. I will not think less of you.

ronrsr:

“If a payment is required for honest labor, which this is, please tell me in advance what that fee will be. I will not think less of you.”

If only everyone was like you….

However, presently most shadchanim are made to feel like beggers after they complete a shiddcuh. Most (including the big time “proffesional”) shadchanim do not have a set fee as they are not businessman. Addditionally, the whole concept of paying them for their work is distorted in our pysche. Thus they don’t feel comfortabel asking for anything- certainly not when someone calls and asks them to help and they haven’t produced yet.

YES- the feeling on the street is that if a shadchan DARE ask for a upfront arrangement – they WIll be thought less of….

It’s high time people who called shadchanim realized that they are asking someone to work for them – the caller should insist up front offering a salary commesurate for work done – NOT just if the shidduch gets completed.

I wonder how many people who had to pay would still hound the shadchanim day and night. When things are free – people undervalue/ abuse…..

oomis, in those days, $25 was worth something! Ach, kids – you can’t learn ’em nothing. Retirement is the way.

oomis1105

If shadchanim spent four hours on a girl and then went on to the next one – you can rest assured that girl wouldn’t get to far.

Try asking a shadchan how much time it takes to get a single date of the ground. 4 hours???? are you joking???

“But plenty of shadchanim redd shidduchim for the wrong reasons, JUST to try to make that fee.”

incorrect- The Overwhelming majority of shadchanim out there are NOT trying to make a quick buck. it’s not quick and it’s a very small buck compared with the time energy and aggravation that goes along with the territory.

oomis 1105: You say you’re retired. Why not try your hand at shadchnus in a serious way and let us know your findings

AZ, I am not a shadchanit, nor would I lay claim to being able to make shidduchim. However, I have tried to do so and spent a lot of time on ONE SHIDDUCH for a friend, and though it did not “take,” I would never have taken money from either the friend or the person with whom I set him up had it worked out. I spent a lot of man-hours on this on the phone, on-line, back and forth with the other party’s friend who recommended her to me, and had to literally talk my friend into going out (he has been burned a LOT). I would say I put in a few weeks on this. So though I understand your point, I do not feel a shadchan should expect or ever ask for the kind of money that has been mentioned here. You will not change my opinion, and I will not change yours. I can live with that.

When you can show me that a shadchan has had the years of training to do his/her profession that other people put into training for their professions (And btw, what exactly DOES qualify that person to be a shadchan?), then I will concede your point. Most shadchanim whom I know are NOT professional in any way. They only think of themselves as such, but do not conduct themselves in a professional manner.

oomis1105

“I would say I put in a few weeks on this.”

By your own admission you spend such extensive time on ONE shidduch. Certainly people who dedicate themselves to not just one shidduch deserve fair compensation.

Forgetting about shadcahnim asking for compensation, what right do people who receive such service have the right to not expect to pay and offer for the extensive time energy and many times even money (long distance/international phone calls).

In addition, since when does a person who is working on your behalf only deserve to be paid if they have training etc. What difference should it make whether a shadchan considers themselves professional or not. If they CHOOSE to do it as a favor – Tavoy alichem bracha. But how can we have the expectation that they work on our behalf and not expect to pay them. I just don’t get it.

Not to mention the only thing that matters and that is that al pi halacha a shadchan has a right to get paid.

Since when does a person who is

I think it would be best if Shadchanim state their fees at the outset. I think $1500 from each side is more than fair, but each community may have their own norms. The gown rentals don’t take “whatever the renter thinks is fair”, and neither does the caterer, the band, or the wine store. It is fair to the family to know the price at the outset, so they aren’t surprised that they “have to pay” for the service. The price should be set based on the average amount of hours invested in a successful shiduchim (yes, there is great variability, and yes, and average can still be determined by a veteran shadchan), and on a reasonable fee per hour.

Someone who feels they don’t have the “extra money” lying around should also question themselves if they have the “extra money” lying around for a band or a caterer. Each family can determine if they are interested in the services of a shadchan, and can decide they they are not (either relying on friends and family to red shidduchim, or not going the formal shidduch route at all), just like someone can decide that they are making a wedding in their backyard to save the expenses.

In my own dealings with shadchanim, I have been surprised at the amount of time they invest in each attempted shidduch, and feel bad that conventional norms do not have shadchanim being paid for unsuccessful attempts (although I am sure they appreciate the occasional thank you note or other small token).

In whart sefer does it stipulate a shadchan should get two thousand dollars?

oomis: Let me guess. That cruel so-called “shadchan” was a professional one?

Like I said, I would quite wary of a “professional” in this field.

Re the unfortunate story you mention: This is sad, but doesn’t relate to the issue at hand, whether you are supposed to pay for your plumber, your electrician, your band, your caterer, and your shadchan, or not.

There are unfortunately bad apples in every service industry, and I’ve heard some really unappealing ones about shadchans. For every story, though, I am sure there are countless more of shadchanim who give their heart, soul, and endless hours to a service that seems to be quite underpaid. There are horror stories of band players, electricians, and doctors who’ve amputated the wrong leg. That doesn’t mean the entire industry shouldn’t be paid. It does mean that we need to be careful before we call up a shadchan to enlist his/her services.

ronrsr,

I know just what you mean. I want to know fees, final fees, and don’t appreciate being told at the end that “an extra x amount for the y”, when I had specifically asked for the final price at the outset.

On a related note, I find it distasteful in the extreme (to put it very nicely) when people ask vendors “can you just throw the x in, since I’m buying y and z from you”, or “do I have to pay for the x?”; it puts the vendor is such an uncomfortable position, and makes them feel they either have to give a discount where they hadn’t intended to (and likely cannot afford to) or have to come across as money hungry grubbers not generous enough to “throw x in for free” or give other unintended discounts. When some acquaintances tell me how they got such “great deals” by using these tactics, I am revolted, not impressed. If you can’t afford it, don’t use the vendor. If you can’t afford the 3 piece band, don’t bully or sweet talk or guilt trip the vendor into a lower price, go with a 1 piece band. If you can’t afford the normal and usual for your community shadchan fees, don’t use one, or raise money for one. If you can’t afford the gardeners’ fees for your lawn, don’t bargain with him until he is afraid that if you don’t get your way you will badmouth him to the neighbors- just accept that you can’t afford his fees and cut your own lawn.

On the topic of Shadchanim, I do truly think that shadchanim should not rely on people knowing the community norms, and should mention the normal and usual fees at the outset, so no one gets a surprise. Most people who are “in the parsha” do inquire of their friends what the typical fees are, but it is always best to be upfront right at the beginning. It is to both parties benefit; no one wants to spend hours working on shidduchim for a family, and discover afterward that the family feels paying what amounts to three dollars per hour for time invested is just fine.

As a side-note to my comment, there are some industries in which it is normal and expected to negotiate. I prefer to err on the side of caution, but would not think it inappropriate if the vendor truly “offers” the original price with the expectation that it will be subject to negotiation resulting in another, “final” price. Such as a house being offered for sale, in which the seller is expecting that potential buyers may offer a bid a few thousand lower than the “asking price”.

And with that, it is way past my bedtime :). Goodnight, CR.

Tzippy,

These gemachs are great. Many gemachs have “suggested” prices, because their purpose as a “gemach” is to help out financially. I think a “suggested” price makes the renter feel really comfortable if they are only able to pay less, and I give a lot of credit to all of those gemachs (from flowers to gowns and beyond) that give so much of their time for such a chessed, usually l’ilui nishmas a loved one.

numerous typos pls repost

The reason Shadchanim do not state the compensation they would like to receive upfront, is NOT because they are looking to take advantage at the end -but rather because they are by and large a bashful group when it comes to asking for money. Being that there is such a “es kumpt mir” attidute regarding our dealings with shadchanim, they feel like they are being grubby if they were to discuss any kind of money when they are first called.

For some reason plumbers, mechanincs electricians don’t have that problem. Might it just be that WE create the atmosphere that makes shadchanim uncomfortable about discussing money.

Everyone here (seems to) agrees with the unbelievable time and effort shadchanim put into redding shidduchim. why is is so hard to recognize that they should be made to feel that they deserve the compensation and that when they receive it they should not be made to feel like beggers.

“I think all modest people have trouble asking for compensation, especially if compensation is not their only motivation for the work. Many of us do work we love, and the compensation, though necessary, is not the prime motivator. Stating the compensation makes it seem as if we are totally pecuniary”

I’m with you on this, ronrsr. It takes a lot of experience discussing these transactions upfront to feel comfortable stating the fees. Those in the service industry seem to have this problem much more than product vendors. I can just see the shadchanim being asked for their fees, and that apologetic look when they need to state them. I just used the services of a carpenter to repair something, and when I asked him the price, he stated one while looking apologetic and explaining why it needed to be that price, then offered a lower price without even waiting for my reaction. Needless to say, I paid him the original, higher price, and I hope I gave him confidence by telling him that most people, like myself, don’t provide their services for free or for inadequate compensation, and he should feel comfortable charging the full amount. He left after the job smiling from ear to ear.

Hi oomis,

Thanks for your reply. I responded to each component beneath the quote:

“Your second paragraph puzzles me more than it puzzles you. Caterers, bands, flowers all have charges that are pretty similar to each other. There are variations in the industries, but that’s why people shop around and pay for what they can afford.”

Shadchanim too, have charges that are pretty similar to each other these days. I have frequently of $1000 for each side, and $1500 as well. I once heard of $2500 (!) and rarely, $500, but the “standard” is pretty widely known and quite similar.

“I could not afford to make my daughter’s wedding at the Marriot Marquis, but I COULD afford Razag. I couldn ‘t afford a million hot smorg dishes, but I paid for what I could afford. I got gemach items, because they, too, were less, though I LOVE fresh real flowers.”

There ARE cheaper ways of engaging the services of a shadchan. Using family members or good friends (if they have the skills, the patience, and the many hours available) can be a cheaper option, because sometimes they will feel bad to accept the regular amount (although as I’ve said previously, I wouldn’t dream of underpaying the standard rate just because someone is a friend, and I know that lots of people have paid the “industry standard” to friends). Another way is to ask around and mention discreetly to a few people that you are looking for a shadchan that does it for the chessed only, and does not take money (or just takes a “hakoras hatov gift”. Most people want to pay shadchanus, not a hakoras hatov gift, although hakoras hatov should always be a centerpiece of this process.

“I do NOT view a shadchan as a vendor. That is too impersonal.”

That is exactly what is so sad for shadchanim. Because it is “too impersonal”, they should not get paid at least like a normal vendor? This is exactly what makes it so uncomfortable for shadchanim. The “job” of shadchan has been around for hundreds of years. The old “shtetl shadchanim” worked long and hard at their job, and did it for parnassah. So do many of today’s shadchanim. The difference between a shadchan and another service vendor is that shadchanim, for the most part, are doing this with an incredible passion and desire for people to find their zivugim, and there is a lot of “mitzvah” in the efforts. I would say similar to an extremely dedicated doctor, who of course gets paid for his services but is completely passionate and selfless in order to save lives.

“But at least people know what they are getting in service from all the above mentioned providers before accepting the service.”

Particularly because some people (although far from most) feel that shadchanim are there as chessed machines, to be called at will to help their child, it is important that shadchanim state their fees at the outset. It is uncomfortable, but important. It can be said neutrally, “I would love to help you; your daughter/son sounds like a wonderful person. I charge $1500 from each side, but of course that is only when there is a successful match”. From the consumer’s point of view, not knowing what the fee is in advance is no excuse not to pay the industry standard.

“You do NOT know what (if anything) the shadchan will find for you, and it really is only long after the fact that a shidduch can be deemed successful or not.”

Of course. Shadchanim are generally not paid for unsuccessful efforts, so that is not an issue. As far as a successful marriage, the band doesn’t wait to see if the marriage is successful, why on earth should the shadchan? The shadchan offered a match, the two individuals are (hopefully) adults who are making their own decisions regarding the suitability of the individuals for marriage, and unless the shadchan willfully lied or was grossly negligent about information, the couple made the choice to wed, and the service of a successful introduction needs to be paid.

“While I agree wholeheartedly that a shadchan should be shown some measure of hakoras hatov, if not professional, but a friend of the family, a relative, etc. a professional shadchan should have a reasonable fee that they charge.”

This is what seems to be the problem here. Shadchanus gelt is money paid to a shadchan for a service. It is hakoras hatov to enclose a warm note with the payment. (and a colored tie, like ronsrs did to his Rabbi in addition to the Rabbi fees :))

“I do not think that $1,500 from each side is reasonable”

This, or an amount similar to $1000 is the standard. You paid more than $1000 for the band/photographer duo, and didn’t tell them that it “wasn’t reasonable”.

“and I ask again, where is that written?”

As noted, the same place it is written how much to pay your gardener for yard work, your hairdresser for a sheitel wash, your high-school tutor for your child, your carpenter for your furniture repair, and your electrician for your outlet work. Do you ask “where it is written” for any other service that someone provides? It seems so inappropriate that of all “trades” the shadchan one, which involves so much thankless efforts, should be debated regarding fees as in “where is it written”. When a secretary comes for a job interview and feels $13 an hour is too little, the boss doesn’t say “where is it written that I need to pay you what you feel is appropriate, $15? He either pays, or chooses to engage the services of the secretary. Even more parallel, when you find out references for a new wig stylist and discover that her fees are $35 a wash and set and you are accustomed to your years ago rate of $15 a wash and set, do you say “where is it written that I need to pay $35?”. No, you either decide to engage her services despite the fees that your friends told you about, or you decide not to do so.

“If they don’t have the money to pay such a fee, does the boy or girl get given back to her parents? It really is not the same thing as paying for the band or flowers.”

Why is it not “really the same thing”? In which specific way is it different? I would say a shadcham is more important than flowers (to put it mildly), and if one can only do one, er, I think the choice is obvious. Flowers without a chassan/kallah are not very helpful.

“And should someone poor, as I stated in another post, never be redd shidduchim, because the shadchanim know there is no “real” money coming out of this for them? Maybe the poor families have no recourse to marry off their daughter or son – they have no people who have approrpiate shidduchim for them.”

That is a very important point, except for the sarcastic “real money” reference. A band would not offer services if they know that the consumers cannot pay, unless arrangements were made in advance and the band is doing it for tzedakah. The ugly reference of “real money” is because you feel the shadchan should be putting in hours and hours of his/her time for a chessed, and don’t realize that it is a trade just like any other, albeit imbued with mitzvah, passion and dedication, just like those incredible selfless doctors one hears about. If a shadchan, unsolicited, reds a shidduch to a family that he/she knows is extremely poor and will not be able to afford band/flowers etc, I would think the shadchan is planning on not accepting the usual and customary fees, and doing it solely for the mitzvah. B”H, there are many wonderful shadchanim who do incredibly selfless mitzvos, and I’m sure the poor of the community are thought of, just like in so many other areas.

“This mercenary approach makes me feel very sad.”

I am sadder about the climate of “let’s avoid paying the shadchan his/her customary fees”. It is a chiyuv to pay a worker on time, and the important work of the shadchan should not be left out because we “feel” shadchanim should not be paid a living wage for their efforts (at least for the successful efforts; unsuccessful efforts don’t have the tradition of being paid, but here is where hakoras hatov fits in, and is very much appreciated- a heartfelt note, a candy platter, a gift certificate, or even a modest monetary gift). In fact, it appears that it is the one who wants to avoid paying shadchan fees that is mercenary, not the hard working, underpaid shadchan.

“Again only the wealthy are deemd worthy. I cannot believe Hashem smiles on this.”

Hashem does not smile when people do not pay their workers and services providers, of that you can be sure. When I go into the store to buy a computer desk, and realize that the prices are above what I can afford and seem “for the wealthy”, my attitude is not that I am not “deemed worthy”. Nor do I bear a grudge for the poor storekeeper who is charging normal and customary prices for well constructed desks. Unlike a desk, a shidduch is infinitely more “essential” :), and one cannot simply give up and decide that one will have to pass. That doesn’t make the industry standard cruel, just like it doesn’t make the price of tomatoes sometimes cruel. It just means that just like in the other areas of wedding efforts will the poor need to have accommodation for them, either in the form of a shadchan doing it solely for mitzvah (a hakoras hatov note is always appreciated), communal funds earmarked for such matters, or another route. I haven’t seen anyone complain about how expensive even the cheapest halls are (who will start a thread on that :)), and say the poor aren’t worthy, lets demean the service fees for the hall rental because not everyone can afford it. Really and truly, I do not mean to minimize the anguish of those that cannot afford; I myself have to think about every purchase. But I don’t think it’s fair to pick on one wedding-related service, the shadchan, and ask why some aren’t deemed “worthy”. Perhaps the bands should play for a token “hakoras hatov” gift as well.

“Please do not think me to be of the opinion that people have no obligation to makir tov for something so important. I just question the amount of hakoras hatov involved.”

I only think well of you, and think that you are sorely mistaken in this particular area. As I noted before, you are an extremely intelligent person, as well as a nice person. And I think if you thought about it some more, you would realize that the usual fees paid to a shadchan are a pitiful (although standard) amount paid to the one who played such a crucial role in the marriage, in comparison to the photographer and caterer (who ALSO need to be paid on time and not made to feel that they have to run after their hard-earned money for services rendered), and in comparison to the likely hours and hours of difficult work invested in the successful outcome. Some shidduchim are fairly simple, most take many hours, some take an enormous amount of time, and that is why there is a normal, community standard, albeit with variations.

I think it’s best that I end here, because I’ve said what I think is important for the parnassah of hard working individuals, but to continue is to irritate you in the process, and I don’t know what is the worse. I never expected to dialogue this far, but surely it’s time for me to stop.

I continue to think well of you, and hope that you are ok with this dialogue.

All the best.

AZ,

I don’t know why they are not paid for time invested for matches that don’t work out, and it’s possible that the trend should change here- I’m not qualified to be the one to change this, although what I would do in my personal life is what I believe to be, proper.

The time-honored “trade” of shadchan has always been paid for a successful shidduch, the amounts obviously keeping up with “inflation” with variations in and across communities. Hakoras Hatov as shown in a token gift, even monetary, is simply mentchlich for efforts invested by a shadchan that do not result in a successful match (hakoras hatov expressed in conjunction with the shadchanus gelt is I’m sure always appreciated as well!) and I’m sure people with appreciation often do so in some form or another.

If your suggestion takes off in some form or another, I would think that is a positive change.

tzippi,

If there are no sources for paying for unsuccessful efforts, and though I don’t know too much, I’ve never heard of one, do you think it would be a good thing if it became “the norm” to pay a minimal amount of money per “episode” of shidduch efforts? (episode meaning as relates to one specific shidduch suggested and worked on.) Do you think it would encourage more people to become shadchanim, or the flip side, perhaps discourage people from making an all-out effort on their child’s behalf, because the process, which can sometimes drag on for years unfortunately, can get too expensive? I’m not sure on which side I stand on this, other than a mentchlich expression of hakoras hatov which can of course include a monetary gift at the discretion of the family. What do you think?

Tzippi: Before qouting sources. I’m just curious whether you checked the sources before paying your shaitel macher, mechanic, lawyer, manucuristetc. What is going on????

And last time I checked lawyers fees where quite high-whether or not they win the case. Why do we take such advantage of the shadchanim?

Bemused: I agree with you a hundred percent and it’s high time the custom changed.

“And last time I checked lawyers fees where quite high-whether or not they win the case.”

And many lawyers are willing to take cases on a contingency basis, where there is no out of pocket fee. The lawyer, however, has had years and years of schooling to prepare him for his/her chosen field. Can you say the same about the average shadchan? You are comparing apples and oranges, IMHO.

AZ,

I’m not disagreeing with you, just noting that it would take a sea-change to effect the kind of change you are talking about. Although it might be true that you often pay a lawyer for time and not for results (not always), and for that matter you pay a gardener for his time, not waiting to see if his efforts bore fruit and the garden bloomed the way you envisioned, it has not been done with shadchanim this way previously, and change is always hard.

BTW the lawyer comparison may be a valid one. It is customary in the legal profession (normally), that the sharks, er attorneys, are only compensated by the plaintiff if they are successful. I am suggesting this may be similar to why shadchonim are customarily only compensated when successful.