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Being a shadchan for many years ,,of course you dont have to agree with me,but i would like every one who has complains about shadchanim,nasi,and all the other wonderful people who try to red shidduchim ,to please redd a shidduch and wait till you get a yes from the boy,and wait and see if they do go out ,how you need special Siatta dishmaya that you should not lose your mind ,not get upset at any of the parties for behaving so stupid and not making correct decisions but making all the decisions based on your personal feelings and not on what is best for your children.Unfortunatly i will have to say that this so called shidduch crisis was made possible alot by the parents by saying no to girls where their really is no legitimate reason.Wake up nobody is perfect and every one has their pekilah.I allways say first look into the child if that shtims perfectly then you are 80% there After you set them up and they start going out get ready to become a therapist .They start finding things that are bothering them that if it would be such problems in a marriage it would be over.You as a shadchan have to listen and try and explain to them that they are looking at it wrong,this is not what he or she meant ,and to simplify what the issue is that they are having.As a shadchan you have to be very carefull how you voice your opinion and the responsibility you have not to be nogeh in your opinion ,because you really want to make this shidduch work but not on the expense of the children.After you passed the stage you have to come to the inyan of financials ,i am not going to go into it but you have to know the 5th chelek of shulchan orech .At this point if every thing is ok you are almost their at making your shidduch ,i cant begin to tell you how many shidduchim have stopped after that.Let me just end because i can probably write a book on my experience and my phone is ringing .”maybe its a yes from the boy”After one shidduch that you made ,you are now entitled to voice your opinion on shadchanim.
Funny, but unfortunately true. Many people say no far absolutely ridiculous reasons! Then a couple years down the line they might have the chance to try it again if they are still available…..
i’ve made one friends shidduch, two people that i set up are in middle of going out, and i’ve red tons. and im 20. and single. the above post is one thousand percent true. it’s no wonder that shidduchim are compared to splitting the sea. that said, i now have a lot more understanding towards the shadchanim and i’ts really great to see all the efforts they invest in their work. however, theres something i’d like to ask. i want to know why when i’ve gone to all the big shadchanim they all say “we will be in touch with you” and months and months go by and i never hear another word from them. granted, my parents are not rolling in the dough, and i may not be THE skinniest girl out there. but from the hundreds of boys you meet, you cant think of ONE? ONE boy that might be good for me? i know how hard it is. but i’ve been to countless shadchanim and i have yet to recieve a call from anyone.
I have redt many shidduchim and B”H was zocheh to be matzliach with at least one, for my own niece. No it wasn’t easy but each one told me I was on the right track. At least it was comforting to know I didn’t waste my time and I understood what they were both looking for.
Personally in this day and age, I feel that finances is something that needs to be discussed right from the start. There is no point putting two people together only to have to tear them apart because they or their parents are in two different planets as far as the finances are concerned. If a boy wants support that is something that needs to be said upfront. If a girl is going for her masters and the husband will be expected to take on that cost, that has to be said upfront. If you know that one or the other has a background or a history that the other family would never approve of, move on to someone else and don’t even try or go there.
As a shadchan there is certain information and questions that you must ask so that you are prepared to give the appropriate information and answers. Asking for an updated resume from both parties is appropriate and can save a lot of time and headaches. If a boy is NOT working at the time the shidduch is being redt then it is appropriate to ask how he plans to support his wife and family because that is a question that will be asked of the shadchan.
One thing that I truly believe has sabotaged the shidduch scene is dropping the shadchan too early in the process. Kids today think that they know everything and can handle everything on their own. They are so wrong and they mess up so badly. In today’s technical society, kids drop the shadchan and start texting each other very quickly. They become too familiar too soon and drop to the level of “friends” instead of “prospects”. They forget they are in a “courtship” and forget to be on their toes. In a courtship, one doesn’t call unexpectedly and one always puts their best foot forward, treating the other with the respect and holding the other in high regard. Texting is faceless and voiceless and you write things that are curt and short and on the level of other friends that you are very familiar with. That takes things down quite a few notches to a lower level of courtship.
You are NOT supposed to be friends. You ARE supposed to be “possibilities” finding out about each other and NOT “hanging” together and that is the difference. When you start hanging together you forget to treat the other as the most special person in your life. You are removed to the level of “friend”. This kind of courtship usually fizzles out fairly quickly. After a month or so. Usually it is the boy that ends it because he is NOT looking for a friend, he is looking for a wife. The girl meanwhile, feels like things are moving along because they are becoming best friends and buddies. They see each other quite often, they text or call a lot. But really the relationship is not growing and not going anywhere because they are not courting they are “friending” and they don’t have the middleman to guide them and build the excitement and anticipation of going slowly and not being so familiar with each other. This not only gives them time to think about the other person a lot but build excitement for the next phone call, the next date, and so on. I have seen too many shidduchim go this route and to top it off the boy always ends with “but we can still be friends, right?” WRONG!
Kids today are too confused. They don’t know what they want, and why they are looking to get married. They are more caught up with the engagement, the wedding, the gifts and the shopping, than the marriage itself and the reality of living and growing with their partner. Because of peer pressure and parental pressure, they are not sure what they should be looking for. Should they go after what their heart and brain tell them, what their parents tell them, their Yeshiva says, or what their friends tell them is right? Should they do what everyone else does, or should they decide for themselves? “If I choose this girl, my mother will make us miserable for the rest of our lives”, “If I go for the money, I won’t have to worry about anything and my life will be simple”, “Everyone says I should work and look for a learning boy, a true ben Torah but I really want to raise my own kids, what should I do?”, “I really want a learning boy, but my parents have no money to help us, what should I do?”.
What happened to “if you are old enough to get married, you are old enough to make your own decisions?” Not in this society; yeshivas tell their talmidim to listen to their parents. Parents of boys think they “own commodity stock” and make the girls feel like they are department store stock, to be sorted and picked through. I can’t even count how many times I have sat with a bunch of yentas who told me “there just aren’t any good girls around”. I have been known on occasion to pick my self up and walk away but not before saying, “I guess you haven’t really opened your eyes to see what’s available, there are much more “good” girls than good honest and ehrlich boys available.”
We all know about the stupid list of questions that keep growing year after year. Who really cares or rather why should anyone care if the female in questions was toilet trained early or not? Why should anyone care if her mother serves with crystal glasses on Shabbos? Who’s business is it if they use a white or off white table cloth? These things are what is important in life? These are what makes or breaks a shidduch? This is what will determine whether a boy or girl will make a good wife and mother or a good husband or father? This my dear friends is what causes the shidduch crisis. Picky parents with hoieche fenster who raise the bar higher and higher each year.
When my daughter was dating, a family member chased after a boy for her for over a year. She called us and was so excited that she finally got a “yes” for her. She started to give me information on the boy. She finally said to me that the boy was going to Law School and the parents wanted the mechutanim (girl’s parents) to foot the bill. I told my sister-in-law, no thank you. I will pass. Say “NO”. She said “What?” are you crazy, do you know how long I was chasing this shidduch?” I didn’t care, I said “Is he no longer their son once he gets married? Why should I or anyone else take over their responsibility of teaching their son how to make a parnasah? What does this mean then, they are selling him to me? I am NOT interested.” At any rate, he finished law school and was working in the field. My daughter was married over 10 years before he got married. So his parents paid for his school in the end anyway. They were well to do people, and could well afford it. So what kind of mishugas do these people have? Why do parents insist on ruining their children’s lives?
If you want to look at the truth why there is a shidduch crisis, there are many pieces to the pie. In addition, there are many “advisors” than need to change their tune and help children make the right choices as individuals and not as robots all trained to do the same thing.
“to please redd a shidduch and wait till you get a yes from the boy,”
Modche. As a shadchan do you find this to be the norm? If yes, why do you think it is? Is it feasible to say to a boy I need an answer in a week or the shidduch is off the table for after all you want the girl to go out with someone, not wait for someone to say yes, hopefully, eventually. Would things be different if you mentioned the name to the girl first got her yes, and then went to the boy? Would it force an answer sooner if he knew that a girl (not just a shadchan) was waiting for an answer?
Is it feasible to say to a boy I need an answer in a week or the shidduch is off the table for after all you want the girl to go out with someone, not wait for someone to say yes, hopefully, eventually.
No, because it isn’t true. When he wants to date her, he’ll just call up a shadchan and say, “hey, can you call shprintza’s parents and tell them I want to date their kid?”
Would things be different if you mentioned the name to the girl first got her yes, and then went to the boy?
No, because it would change nothing. You would go to a boy, tell him sara wants to go out. He would say, “so does rivka, rachel, leah, bilhah, and zilpah; so I’ll think about it and get back to you if I’m interested.” And when he called you back, you’d better believe the girl would still be interested.
Would it force an answer sooner if he knew that a girl (not just a shadchan) was waiting for an answer?
That it would. In which case, he would say “yes” to bilhah, and “busy” to sarah rivka rachel leah and zilpah.
Really, when guys don’t say yes or no, it isn’t because they are being jerks. It is because the answer isn’t yes or no. It is, “well, it depends what my other options are. I can’t be expected to divide all girls into yes and no, and then go out with the yes girls in the exact order I find out about them.”
And if you don’t like it, become Modern Orthodox. I hear they can change the torah, maybe they can change nature also.
Im starting to think the 11K dollars for NASI is just for the priviledge of getting a YES from any boy, no matter what the age of the girl or the finances!!!!
bottom line is shidduchim are corrupt! because people can’t work together well enough to make them happen!! If people co-operated better, stopped being stubborn, selfish, and insane there wouldn’t be a shidduch crisis.
guys we need achdus in order to build mikdash me’ats.
if we can work on that sort of achdus it might bring us to have a deeper sense of achdus that will bring the geula bimheirah viyomeinu amen! that will solve all our problems not just the ‘shidduch crisis’. If we do our hishtadlus hashem will take care of the rest.
Klal Yisroel Hatzlocha!!! We’re in this together!!!!!
I must thank everyone who has posted up on this new thread-
thank you modche1
The reality of people running their kids’ lives, especially the financial side is new to me, and I am a mother with married kids !
hey…op…paragraph breaks matter!
oh and why on earth did you make the title of the thread all caps?
Soliek: I completely agree.
It would be so nice if everyone here knew how to write English so I could actually understand what they are trying to say. Correct punctuation would be really nice too.
O, and one more pet peeve… please don’t refer to the people dating as ‘kids’ or ‘children’. Surely if they are old enough to get married, they shouldn’t be referred to as ‘kids’?
Hi modche1 Excellent post!
Please dont feel that complaints about the NASI method are complaints about Shadchanim as a rule. You do a wonderful thing and I can only imagine the art of what you do is very demanding, but you know it is also very meaningful.
modche1-
After one shidduch that you made ,you are now entitled to voice your opinion on shadchanim.
I never made a shidduch but I feel that as a victim of too many shadchanim I am entitled to voice my opinion.
After you set them up and they start going out get ready to become a therapist .
That is part of the problem right there! A shadchan is not a therapist- a shadchan is a go between or an agent. A shadchan has no business doing research or asking for details as to why one of the parties is ending the relationship. Leave that to a Rov or some other professional.
In my opinion it is extremely unfair for the other party to discuss anything with the shadchan as a shadchan can- and will- hold anything against them to the fullest extent. Keep in mind that one may get the wrong impression of another person after meeting them for a few hours and a shadchan will hold it against them for eternity.
From a personal experience- what should have been a 4 hour drive for one date turned into an 8 hour drive due to an accident with numerous fatalities. What should have been a 30 minute drive to the location I was taking her to, turned into a 2 hour drive, also due to the traffic. I asked her if we could go out to eat since I hadn’t eaten in 12 hours but she refused saying that she ate already. (I was asking from a humanitarian point of view, not a social point of view.)
Anyway- she told the shadchan that I’m slow, rude (for yawning too much and for suggesting that we go to eat so late at night) and some other “compliments” to show her gratitude for wasting 36 hours and $150+ on her.
The shadchan never called back with any other suggestions (no big loss). Don’t you think a more appropriate approach would have been to call my Rebbe or family Rav to see if I’m always like this, or maybe I just wasn’t myself due to the circumstances?
To end on a positive note-
“A boy has no pressure”
So create some. Dale Carnegie once said, people are motivated by one of two things, fear or money. It seems apparent that that there is no fear of not getting the names of girls, however, if you made boys put money up front, and deduct a few dollars every time they delay, drag along and waste your (and everyone else’s) time it might put SOME pressure on them to stop comparing the 47 options on their heilige list and make a decision. Seems to me that it is reasonable, dont shadchanim feel the need to be compensated for their time? Why is the time only on the clock once the girls family is in the picture?
“hoieche fenster”
Aries translation please.
modche1-
I’m sorry if I offended you.
You seem to be from the .1% of shadchanim that are involved for the correct reasons and are a mentch.
May you have much hatzlacha and may all shadchanim follow your footsteps.
P.S. WHERE WERE YOU WHEN I NEEDED YOU!
apushatayid: I totallly concur! Instead of rolling around in the mud of the status quo, it’s time to create some solutions and clean the mess up. This is a cornerstone of Jewish life and needs a quality approach to set a quality foundation. Attitudes must be changed and mechanisms applied to accomplish that.
“hoieche fenster” just one more of those yiddishe phrases that don’t quite have a good translation, it means “airs about them”, “above the rest”, exact translation would be “high windows” so that could me a “penthouse attitude”.
modche1. I agree with Dr. Pepper’s post, and want to add that those families you are working with are in good hands, BH.
It seems apparent that that there is no fear of not getting the names of girls, however, if you made boys put money up front, and deduct a few dollars every time they delay, drag along and waste your (and everyone else’s) time it might put SOME pressure on them to stop comparing the 47 options on their heilige list and make a decision. Seems to me that it is reasonable
Yes, but you can’t do that. You know why? Because the boys won’t put up with it. And they control the market.
Also, I simply don’t know what your issue is with guys looking at their options before getting into a relationship. It is not like they are not dating- they are dating, usually consecutively. Just not dating everyone at the same time.
Look, if you want to solve this part of the problem, you need to use market forces. The only one I know of is a union with collective bargaining. (That is the point of unions, to counter the bargaining position of employers when there is a glut of labor).
So girls should band together and refuse to date any guys who don’t accede to certain conditions.
popa_bar_abba-
So girls should band together and refuse to date any guys who don’t accede to certain conditions.
Why stop there, everyone should band together and refuse to deal with any shadchan who doesn’t adhere to basic decency and common sense.
Look, if you want to solve this part of the problem, you need to use market forces.
Increase supply! Go out with the guy who doesn’t want to learn, but wants to be an Erliche Yid. The YU guy, the Chofetz Chaim Guy, the College guy, and the working guy.
Not that it will solve all problems, but the solution will be incremental, with little pieces falling into place. This is one piece.
As for PBA’s suggestion, you forget the purpose of girls (as per brainwahing in Sem): Support a Kollel Boy! They have no ability to unite; they are hopelessly indoctrinated, and only time can release them. (somewhat 🙂
modche1-
Dr pepper I have to tell you that what nasi is doing at the matzev that it is right now the only thing that will help is for more people to get into shadchanis,ofcourse if you take it apart people can feel bad and insulted but i think more good will come out of this.There is no perfect solution but something has to get done asap
Don’t get me wrong- I do respect your opinion- but I disagree with you here.
We don’t need more shadchanim per se, we need more competent shadchanim and shadchanim who are more competent.
In my personal opinion, one major part of this crisis is that many good guys don’t want to deal with shadchanim. If they can have friends or neighbors suggest a shidduch for them why would they want to deal with professional shadchanim and have to put up with their despicable practices?
The ones who get hurt the most are the OOT girls who rely on professional shadchanim as a lifeline.
“Yes, but you can’t do that. You know why? Because the boys won’t put up with it. And they control the market.”
The shadchanim should be the ones who have the control. But they dont. They allow the inmates to run the asylum. They should put their foot down.
“So girls should band together and refuse to date any guys who don’t accede to certain conditions.”
No, shadchanim should band together and not set up anyone, male or female, who doesn’t adhere to certain conditions. One of those conditions should be respond in a timely manner.
“everyone should band together and refuse to deal with any shadchan who doesn’t adhere to basic decency and common sense.”
Shadchanim should band together and stop dealing with people who dont adhere to basic decency and common sense as well (read parents – after a certain age IMO if the parties are not mature enough or smart enough to speak with a shadchan, they should not be seeing anyone for the purposes of shidduchim and it is usually parents who say things that if their children knew about them, would embarrass them greatly).
My wife and I were zocheh to make a shidduch a few years ago, since then we have only suggested 3 or 4 more, (none worked out). As much as we would like to suggest more of them we find that the people really don’t appreciate the time and effort we put in to trying to make it happen. A professional shadchen can suggest a name and talk for a few minutes and hang up. As a friend or relative we try to sell the boy and girl which takes time, each side pumps us for info which takes even more time and then if they go out we get a call at 8 or 9 in the morning (when we have to get everybody out) it takes even more time. And if at the end they is a flat out no by either side ( sometimes in my opinion for the stupidest reasons) my wife and I looked at each other and said “who needs this”. Then people wonder why there is a shiduch crisis.
I believe that the parents and their children need to understand that when a private individual suggests a shidduch they are doing it as chessed and should appreciate it even when it doesn’t work out.
I would strongly suggest that both the girl and the boy should commit to give at least two dates, and not be quick to say no. There are many people who wanted to say no after a date and for one reason or another were pressured into another date and today they are happily married.
One story sticks in my mind from a chasiddshe rav in flatbush from when he dated 50 years ago. He went to pick up the girl, in those days the girls usually worked at a very physically demanding job to help support the family. As soon as she got into the car she fell asleep, he did not know what to do, in those days you couldn’t park on the side of the road with a girl, so he drove around for hours until she woke. They were zocheh to have bunim ubenai bunim.
apushatayid-
I wish there was something I could have done to get them to stop dealing with me.
Dr. Pepper: What compelled you to continue dealing with them? You could have simply refused to communicate with them.
apushatayid: The shadchanim can’t take control because they need the boys, whereas the boys don’t need the shadchanim. There are more girls than boys in the shidduch market, and the shadchanim are desperate for the boys, since they have more girls than boys. On the other hand, the boys are inundated with girls (since there are more girls in the market than boys) so the boys can hangup on the shadchanim and it’ll be the shadchanim coming back on their knees to the boys since the shadchan has so many girls and so few boys. Hence there is no way to dislodge the boys’ side control of the system.
Just ate 2 sinos…. again. The 2nd soda went to a hungry person though. This is getting unhealthy.
passfan-
I wish it would have been that easy, unfortunately it’s not.
Back then I didn’t have a cell phone, so if I didn’t answer the phone in my room or return calls they would resort to their evil tricks. They’d harass my friends who would beg and plead with me to just go out with whoever just to get the shadchan off their back.
Another tactic was to call my parents directly. My mother would automatically think that they had someone for one of my sisters since she already ordered them to stop calling for me and my brother (“please, can you convince him to go out with her? I promise I’ll find dates for your daughters…).
The Bais Medrash used to be my Ir Miklat, where I thought I was safe from shadchanim, but they’d ask my Rebbe to mention a name to me. (Luckily he told me to give him a one word answer, either “yes” or “no” and that was it.)
Finally, there wasn’t much I could do when they would see me in public, walking in the street or after davening on Shabbos.
Hope that answers your question.
Until the roshei yeshiva allow the boys to socialize with the girls, they need the shadchanim to set them up. As much as they won’t admit it, the boys need shadchanim. Shadchanim should start wielding this power.
Dr. Pepper: Yup, it sure does answer my question. Thanks. In a nutshell what you are saying is that the shadchanim engaged in nasty pressure tactics. That is quite outrageous.
It also demonstrates my above point to apushutayid that the shadchanim desperately need the boys while the boys don’t need them. OTOH the girls need the shadchanim. So the shadchanim have no leverage over the boys other than engaging in abusive pressuring tactics.
apushatayid-
Shadchanim- yes, professional shadchanim- no. Even after I stopped taking any name from any professional shadchan I had still too many suggestions coming from friends and neighbors to check them all out.
If guys needed them they wouldn’t have to stoop to these pathetic practices.
After we got married my wife told me that she had no interest in a number of the guys that she went out with, but the shadchan threatened her that if she didn’t go out with him she will never call back.
As much as they won’t admit it, the boys need shadchanim. Shadchanim should start wielding this power.
I guess you’d be arguing for a shadchanim’s union. Because if guys just stop dealing with a particular shadchan the others will just stop in. Seems to me.
Besides, I get confused when people talk about socializing being a solution to anything. We have plenty of singles events in the frum community, they are just seen as something you do when shadchanim haven’t worked. But it isn’t taboo.
i agree totally to the person who wrote that people who have ther boys away in yeshiva dont know them at all they are selling them as one thing but wake up he hasnt live with u in a couple of yrs get to know him before u sell him
i resently set up a boy but only once he got to know the girl did his true colors come out and it was not at all what he was protrated to be
and this checking out which can take wks at a time can make all involved crazy if u try to pressure to speed it up they just get nervous
squeak-
I plan on coming out my my bunker for a few hours today and hope to stop by KD for lunch.
If you’re going to be there please let me know.
(You can encode a message describing what to look for.)
I was once set up by a well-known shadchan (I was not aware that my name was even given to the person by a friend of the family). I went out with the guy a couple of times and the shadchan IMMEDIATELY began to pressure my parents and me with a what aare you waiting for attitude. I ended up breaking it off with the boy after a few more dates, primarily because he was not for me, as I came to realize, but also because of the feeling of being rushed into something by someone who did not even know me personally.
“Because if guys just stop dealing with a particular shadchan the others will just stop in. Seems to me.”
Sure. There are only so many bridges someone can burn though.
apushatayid: The guys don’t need those bridges, i.e. the professional shadchanim. Most shidduchim are made via non-professional shadchanim, i.e. family, friends, acquaintances, etc. Even if a guy blacked out every single professional shadchan in the world, he would do just fine in shidduchim. (Additionally, your idea is DOA unless every shadchan agrees to it. Good luck with that.) Remember, there are more girls available than guys available.
“Remember, there are more girls available than guys available.”
What I think is a more accurate statement is that there are more girls looking for a specific type of boy than there are boys of that type. The proliferation of seminaries and girls who attend them in the last 15-20 years has resulted in girls being told that only X is what you want, only X is a torah life and only X is what a “real” bas yisroel wants. Girls are smart enough to see through the phonies and can tell who is an X and who is an X wannabe. Many who get married when they are 24 or 25 end up marrying those “other types” who they would reject out of hand when they are 19 or 20.
apushatayid-
Very well said.
But I’d go a little further.
If I’d have to estimate I’d say that more than 95% of the girls who want a type X and won’t settle for an X wannabe, would be an X wannabe themselves if they were a male.
apushatayid & Dr. Pepper: What I said in my previous comment is a more accurate assessment of the issue. There are more girls (of all types cumulative) available than guys (of all types cumulative) available. Therefore, your point — as true as it may be — doesn’t get to the root of the problem. Even if the girls would forget all their meshugasim and be willing to marry any ehrlich boy — or even if she would be willing to marry ANY frum boy [and he willing to marry any frum girl] — the problem still exists, as there are more total frum girls in the entire shidduch market than their are total frum boys in the entire shidduch market.
For that reason, also, the shadchanim have no leverage over the boys, and must cater to the boys whims and they can’t do anything about it. The shadchanim have to be afraid the boys will ignore them (while the opposite is the case with the girls), while the boy doesn’t care if the shadchan ignores him.
“There are more girls (of all types cumulative) available than guys (of all types cumulative) available.”
This is not true. Certainly not to the extent that things have reached, as people call it “crisis proportions”.
From a personal experience- what should have been a 4 hour drive for one date turned into an 8 hour drive due to an accident with numerous fatalities. What should have been a 30 minute drive to the location I was taking her to, turned into a 2 hour drive, also due to the traffic. I asked her if we could go out to eat since I hadn’t eaten in 12 hours but she refused saying that she ate already. (I was asking from a humanitarian point of view, not a social point of view.)
Anyway- she told the shadchan that I’m slow, rude (for yawning too much and for suggesting that we go to eat so late at night) and some other “compliments” to show her gratitude for wasting 36 hours and $150+ on her.
The shadchan never called back with any other suggestions (no big loss). Don’t you think a more appropriate approach would have been to call my Rebbe or family Rav to see if I’m always like this, or maybe I just wasn’t myself due to the circumstances?
Dr. Pepper, I thought you were out of shidduch stories but this one takes the cake! Wow, sorry you had to go thru that but on the other hand in a way its good it happened – it made you discover quickly that she’s not a mentch.
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