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Recently i’ve talked some shiduchim and the more i’m getting into it i realize how complicating it could be. For one when do you call back after you red a shiduch? a few days or rather a week or more? Is it better to wait for them to call me back. I recently called a person and they told me if the boy will wear a shtreimel i shouldn’t bother. Should i proceed without checking this point and leave it for later when it gets serious or is not right? It would be very helpfull for alot of beginners if anybody with more experience in these matters would offer some advice.
I think that there are certain issues that are very much shayach and some that are not. In the case of the shtreimel, if that is a real fundamental deal-breaker (“I shouldn’t bother”) then clearly this is not a shidduch to redd, because it will hurt both parties, when it inevitably does not yield success. But if it is something most people would consider to be inconsequential (like hair color, neighborhood that the boy or girl comes from), whether they use paper bags or plastic, then it should not be dismissed out of hand. Making a shidduch is VERY hard to do. it’s not, “Here’s a boy, here’s a girl, here’s the shidduch!” Similar hashkafa, background, interests, and goals, (note I am not saying identical), ARE important. No matter what we would like to think, attraction IS important initially, but there also must be more behind that attraction, which can sustain the relationship later on. There are too many young people getting divorced these days.
I only recently heard of the concept of a “Shtar mechilah” from the one who has had the engagement broken by the other party. I never knew such a thing existed. How sad, that making a shidduch has become SUCH a business-like thing, that if the engagement falls through, the injured party must send a written document that he or she forgives the other for doing them the favor of not bringing them into a marriage that was bound to fail. I hear of broken engagements all the time now. There was a time when it rarely happened. Then again, people were not getting divorced within the first six months, so readily, either. They worked on the marriage. Now it seems like there is no real vested interest in doing so. It’s very sad. But it also underscores what a tremendous achrayus it is to make a shidduch. It should not be looked upon lightly.
JayMatt seems like the expert on this, but I think there’s something wrong with his computer/internet
My own advice- don’t go ahead till you find out if he wants to put on a streimel or not. What’s the point in doing all that work if you’ll hit a dead end anyway?
I think that there are certain issues that are very much shayach and some that are not. In the case of the shtreimel, if that is a real fundamental deal-breaker (“I shouldn’t bother”) then clearly this is not a shidduch to redd, because it will hurt both parties, when it inevitably does not yield success. But if it is something most people would consider to be inconsequential (like hair color, neighborhood that the boy or girl comes from), whether they use paper bags or plastic, then it should not be dismissed out of hand.
My philosophy is that if someone says they dont want XYZ, its not up to me to force it, no matter what I think of the detail. I don’t believe in pushing AT ALL. So, you dont want to date a guy that has blue eyes? Your perogative, not mine.
I wanted to add that many times a girl does not realize that livush does not equal a boy. Sometimes it’s in a good sense and sometimes in a more negative sense. But from personal experience I can say that you can be SHOCKED at what’s really under that hat.
This may not be the usual- but you sure need to check your facts. Livush absolutely should NOT be a deal breaker. I personally know someone that waited many years till she came to the realization that it just doesn’t matter! And her chosson proves it!
You don’t need to go from baseball caps to streimels. But we need to be more open-minded and expand the range that we’re willing to consider.
RoshYeshiva,
let me start with a disclaimer that I am NOT an experienced shadchan.
That being said I think it would be very wrong to tell the girl’s side that he will forgo the shtreimel without first asking the boy’s side if that is indeed true. You may think the shidduch is perfect and that the 2 sides are complete fools to let the wearing of a shtreimel get in the way, but don’t try to play G-d and try to force the shidduch to happen. If he ends up not being willing to part with the shtreimel after they go out a few times and have feelings for each other, and if her side then breaks the shidduch because they were lied to, you will have caused a lot of needless pain and heart-ache.
If you think they have crazy hakpados you can try to reason with them but don’t try to lie to them to force them into something.
i think that if they basically come from same type of backgrounds, then it wouldnt be such a deal for either side to put on/take off a shtreimal, however, if it is an issue,then maybe even though it wont seem like this to the shadchan that maybe they arent that similar- and a very important thing in a marriage is to have similar backgrounds.
I know a shadchan personally that has done approximately 60 shidduchim and the way he works is he basically says the details but he leaves out some minor details for example- the boy is 23 and the girl is 19, then hell say that the boy is appx 22…not 10% sure-hell beat around the bush bec such a minor detail is noot a major factor after marriage, but before marriage ppl tend to get all overwhelmed..such a big age difference..etc. and as this shadchan says- whats the difference what age you are- so that in 75 years one will be 93 and one will be 97? and i totally agree. whats the major difference.
I definitely think that there is nothing wrong with leaving out some minor details until later- unless these details can later on ruin the marriage.
amen to charlie’s post!
Sorry, I’m not at home. I’ll try to take some time to compose an answer in a few hours
Here’s a story that happened with me.
Shadchan calls and tries to set me up with someone whose parents insist their son-in-law must live in their neighborhood. I immediately say no.
Shadchan calls back and says her parents are willing to negotiate after the wedding. Still not interested but call a friend of mine whose wife is the girls friend to see what is going on. What the shadchan didn’t tell us (she probably didn’t know) is that the girl is an only daughter of elderly parents, who need her to take care of them.
They also felt that the lucky guy will be getting so much (their daughter as a wife and them as in-laws) that he should be willing to forgo something as trivial as living where he wants to.
While the shadchan might have felt it was a silly request, the parents had a legitimate reason for the condition and as far as they were concerned it was not something that could be negotiated.
(No, I did not go out with her.)
Here’s a streimel story with a happy ending.
Guys family insists he wear a streimel, girls family won’t hear of it. The two are already going out and like each other. So they compromise. When they are by his parents he wears a streimel. When they leave the streimel goes into the “spare tire well” as he calls it.
Both families were fine with that and they are now married. (He wore a streimel for the wedding.)
#1 TIP FOR SHADCHANIM: BE TRUTHFUL ALWAYS!!!!!
~a~
Dr. Pepper, OMG! I know a couple like that! Wonder if it’s the same.
~a~
oomis- That’s exactly my question with the shtreimel shouldn’t i let things go a bit and let them see first if the boy is interesting to them before they make such a statement? it’s like we’re talking a satmar family with a litvish one we’re talking very similar backgrounds semi-litvish-chasidish. But then again after such a statement i’m scared i’ll upset them when the boy refuses to let go of his shtreimel. Isn’t there alot of shadchanim that work that way they don’t tell all the details in the beginning?
I would not go forward with this unless I knew the boy’s position on the shtreimel was that he does not wear one. Even if he said he does but he won’t if that makes a difference, he may change his mind afterwards, the first time they have a disagreement, and then use it as a means of a power play. Believe people when they say something is important to them. Another girl will LOVE his shtreimel. Ya win some ya lose some.
Dr. Pepper: loved the line–>”spare tire well” for the streimel!
the boy is 23 and the girl is 19, then he’ll say that the boy is appx 22…not 10% sure-he’ll beat around the bush bec such a minor detail is not a major factor after marriage, but before marriage ppl tend to get all overwhelmed
Personally, I hate this sentiment. Its one of the reasons I could not shidduch date (or even blind date). It doesnt matter if YOU think its a minor detail, if I say I don’t want a guy who is 23, you should respect that, no matter how much you think I am wrong. I think lying or stretching the truth is awful. People need to make their own decisions in life and own up responsibility. If someone rejects another based on age, that is their perogative, not yours as a shadchan.
RoshYeshivah: personally, i think there is a difference between not saying everything you know & stretching/changing the truth. nothing to do with how many matches will it make, i don’t think it’s a good idea for anybody to lie.
SJS, my cousin didn’t wanna go out with a girl that was a “baby” when his mother met a random girl and loved her she found out more about her and couldn’t believe she was only 19. she looked into it, decided she really wanted her for this son and convinced him to go out with her. when he asked how old she was my aunt said “about 20” (she was JUST passed 19 and a half) he said that was really too young, but OK – 20 is REALLY the limit…
…and they lived happily ever after. tada!
(he found out halfway through the first date that she was only 19, but he liked her anyway, so it didn’t matter.)
SJS has a point. Lets say a girl says she won’t date a guy who’s younger than her. That’s fine, she’s allowed to say that. I would respect that and people should not try to set her up with guys who are younger than her. BUT, if she would meet a guy, not shidduch-style, and like him and only find out later that he’s maybe 6 months younger than her, she might not mind anymore that he’s younger. It’s a hard call. I would NOT want someone to deceive me, yet sometimes the girl won’t care about such a thing once she meets the guy. I don’t know what the answer is, I do hear both sides.
~a~
all i know is that if it were me, i might be ok with it being different than i asked for once i already met them. but if the shadchan or someone had, as anonymisss put it, deceived me, i would probably be annoyed at them. i really don’t like dishonesty, though, so could be other people don’t mind as much.
Nice to see I’m missed. I’m not at home, so not as easy to spend time in the CR.
Lets deal with some of the previous posts:
>>#1 TIP FOR SHADCHANIM: BE TRUTHFUL ALWAYS!!!!!<<
Sorry, this is false. There are many situations where there is actually a mitzva for the shadchan to lie. (If desired this can be further discussed at a later time)
>>I recently called a person and they told me if the boy will wear a shtreimel i shouldn’t bother. Should i proceed without checking this point and leave it for later when it gets serious or is not right?<<
Check initially. 1. since it will be a deal breaker, and 2. because it will hurt you as a shadchan if you set them up with someone who they state they have no intention of marrying.
There are numerous categories which things fall into.
1. Things which are obvious
2. Not Obvious, but will kill the shidduch at anytime
3. Not obvious, but if given time people can get over it.
Example 1: A friend of mine has a glass eye. We were told that this needed to be told to the other side before date #1, as it is something which would be notice right away. And not telling her before hand would create an uncomfortable “shock factor”
Example 2 & 3: A boy has cancer in remission. We would not set him up with a girl who lost a parent to cancer, as she would say no to the Shidduch, even after meeting him a few times, since she does “not want to go through with it again”. However, there are some girls who will say no initially to such a suggestion, as “they have better offers” but they will probably not nix the shidduch if all is going well after 5 dates.
Obviously the streimel does not fit into category 1, you need to see whether it fits into #2 or #3. Though you are implying that it goes into #2
>>But if it is something most people would consider to be inconsequential…<<
Don’t think about whether the others consider it inconsequestial, only consider the Point of View of the girl and guy (and respecive families if they play a role)
>>i think that if they basically come from same type of backgrounds, then it wouldnt be such a deal for either side to put on/take off a shtreimal, however, if it is an issue,then maybe even though it wont seem like this to the shadchan that maybe they arent that similar- and a very important thing in a marriage is to have similar backgrounds.<<
This has no connection to the question. There is a reason the girl wants to know this before hand. Background plays no role here.
Not sure I agree with you about the background comments (which is a nice way of saying I don’t)
A Lesson A Day (beige sefer chofetz chaim) discusses this. check it out.
Sorry, this is false. There are many situations where there is actually a mitzva for the shadchan to lie.
Please lets discuss this because quite honestly, it makes me sick.
No one should be lied to. No one. Honestly, if I were on a date and found out the shadchan had lied to me, I would pick myself up and leave right away. No matter how much I liked the guy.
No one should be manipulated into dating someone. Just becauses the shadchan thinks its a great match and should go through, doesnt mean it should. And I know plenty of success stories with lying and I always feel so bad for them. I also know plenty of divorces that occured because of a shadchan lying.
So, honesty IS the best policy.
There is NO mitzvah for a shadchan to lie outright. There are several aveiras, however, i.e. 1) lifnei iveir 2) gneivas daas but to name a couple. It is one thing to say a girl is pretty, when she might not be – beauty is very subjective and in the eye of the beholder. It is quite another to exaggerate about someone, when in fact they possess NONE of the qualities. I hate it when someone makes a shidduch for my daughter and will tell me,”He’s got a wonderful personality, once he gets to know you. You just need to draw him out A LITTLE.” In fact, the guy was afraid of his own shadow, said not two words on the date, and my daughter (who is very charming and easy to talk to), was at a loss. It was a waste of her time AND his.
Never say a personality problem is a little problem when it might be clinical depression. Never say he is “brilliant” when he is a mediocre student. If there is a potentially serious illness or either party is on lifelong meds, DO NOT HIDE IT! No one will trust your judgment. If the boy is short, don’t say to the short girl, “Oh you two will look so CUTE together, and you’re short, too.” She might not feel comfortable, having dated other short guys, with someone who is not a few inches taller (not necessarily tall, but at least five inches taller than herself, so she can wear heels comfortably with him).
I knew I would create an uproar.
Yes, if you ask da’as torah, you will find out there are times where there is a mitzva to lie. NOT ALL THE TIME, JUST SOME SITUATIONS.
When something falls into my previously mentioned category #3 there could very well be a mitzva to lie initially, especially if it is something which will not be discovered while on a date, and something which one will ignore if the dating is going well.
E.g. The girl ideally wants to date a guy whose mother covers her hair. However, we know that she’ll have no problem with this if she likes the guy. Could very well be that there will be a Mitzva here to lie, enabling her to make the decision vis-a-vis her feelings of the mother’s not covering of her hair after meeting this boy. How about other examples (age, how plates are removed from the Shabbos table, tablecloth etc) The main thing which must be considered is whether the couple meeting first will positively affect the processing of this information vs. them not meeting first)
Oh, and NEVER lie to a Kohen about a girl he cannot marry!! It should be so obvious, yet so many shadchanim are so very incompetent in this area.
Look, I know most shadchanim wrongly play this card (as to be expected), just realize that there times when it can AND SHOULD be played.
In the name of full disclosure, I never would have dated my wife if I knew her age initially. Someone knew this and told me she was a year younger, we found this out right away, but at least we had went out.
just realize that there times when it can AND SHOULD be played.
I still disagree. If I have my own personal hangups, you as a shadchan should still respect that, even if you disagree with me. You may think its stupid (such as using plastic table cloths on Shabbos), but it may be of utmost importance to me. Only *I* should get to make that decision for myself, no one else.
How about other examples (age, how plates are removed from the Shabbos table, tablecloth etc) The main thing which must be considered is whether the couple meeting first will positively affect the processing of this information vs. them not meeting first)
The age issue IS a factor, your happy marriage (ad meah v’esrim shana)notwithstanding. However, the other things you mentioned are such unbelievable narishkeit as to be an embarrassment for anyone to even ask about such a thing! And shame on anyone to whom this matters in a shidduch.
>>If I have my own personal hangups, you as a shadchan should still respect that<<
I do, please note how I differentiated and made categories 2 AND 3 above. A boy once told me “Listen, No redheads”, I’m not going to lie to him about that one, as it is a hangup which he would not get over. However, when someone tells me that their age range is 22-25, I might still set them up with someone who is 21, if I believe that after they meet the response would be something to the effect of “wow, your 21, you seem older”. In cases like this the person has a “paper hang-up” i.e. when written on paper it bothers them, however in reality they could care less.
AZ, Do NOT use this post as your soapbox for your agenda
In cases like this the person has a “paper hang-up” i.e. when written on paper it bothers them, however in reality they could care less.
You should allow the person themselves to decide what is a “paper hang-up” vs a real hang-up. So, you can say “The person is 21, but maturity wise is older” rather than the person is 22. Its not up to you to decide what a paper hang-up is – that is THEIR choice.
JayMatt,
thanks for your posts – very thought out and you say based on da’as torah. 2 things I think though need clarification in your third example above (boy is in remission) and I’d love to hear your take on them.
1. would this only apply to hiding the info if the other person doesn’t ask or even to lie outright even if they do ask? (Suppose they say they heard a rumor that he once had cancer and they ask you if thats true).
2. would you tell her at some point before the l’chaim so she can make a decision whether it bothers her or if she doesn’t find out before the chuppa then so be it?
Scenario 1:
>> In the name of full disclosure, I never would have dated my wife if I knew her age initially. Someone knew this and told me she was a year younger, we found this out right away, but at least we had went out. <<
Scenario 2:
Boy walks in to take girl on date. This is date #1 and the parents are there to greet him. There is something wrong with this boy, both the parents and the girl can tell. He seemed drugged or not feeling well. The mother is concerned to let her daughter leave with this boy that does not look capable of driving. There’s not much she can really do though, so the couple leaves on their date as planned. The girl comes back and says nothing really bad happened, but he seemed… weird, out of it. Mother calls shadchan and demands an explanation. Shadchan says she’ll have to call her back. Next day mother calls shadchan again- what’s going on? Oh- I didn’t think it was such an important point, being that it’s all under control now… but he’s on medication for xyz(don’t know name of illness) and I guess there are some side effects.
Shadchan didn’t think this was important?! go figure
SJS: I’m not making sure they get married, we’re discussing dating. If after meeting the person still insists that 21 is not 22 then fine. However, I think that a shaddchan can decide some issues are worth investigating whether or not they are paper issues or not (by lying and getting the couple to go out).
Charlie Brown:
In the case of remission I was not going to say outright before they met, though I would answer truthfully if asked.
I would not do as much as set someone up who would hold a secret like that until after a l’chaim. I try my hardest to ensure that all parties have a Rov and get proper hadracha. If I know someone will try to hold a secret like that until after an engagement, I won’t work with them.
Direct quote from A Lesson A Day:
The prohibition against misleading one’s fellow requires that one not suggest a shidduch unless:
1) He believes that given what he knows of their personalities, the two could be a good match, and he is unaware of any reason the relationship should cause pain to either one.
2) In his opinion, there is reason to believe that their meeting will ultimately result in an engagement. (It is wrong to waste a person’s time, energy and emotions!)
3) He is not aware of any medical, emotional, or character deficiency that would render one arty unfit for marriage.
4) He does not feel that either party will have a negative influence upon the other.
5) He is not aware that one party lacks something that the other is insistent upon, or has something to which the other has explicitly expressed strong objection.
Should there be any doubt as to whether any of these conditions have been met, the counsel of a talmid chacham should be sought.
END.
~a~
anonymisss, I actually wrote down last night what the exact pages were, but I don’t have it here. thanx!
thanks, kapusta & anonymisss
anytime;)
~a~
SJS: I’m not making sure they get married, we’re discussing dating. If after meeting the person still insists that 21 is not 22 then fine. However, I think that a shaddchan can decide some issues are worth investigating whether or not they are paper issues or not (by lying and getting the couple to go out).
JayMatt, you come across as a wonderful person. But to me this is dispicable. If a shadchan lied to me once and it didnt work out, how could I ever trust them again? Their word means nothing then.
It shouldnt be up to the shadchan to decide what seems unimportant enough to lie about. I think its rude and obnoxious and a solid relationship shouldnt start out with a lie.
sjsinnyc: did you read what anonymisss quoted?
AOB yes. Why?
i was just wondering
Charlie Brown:
In the case of remission I was not going to say outright before they met, though I would answer truthfully if asked
If ANY shadchan set up my child with someone who had been seriously ill (even if B”H in remission) and DID NOT tell me prior to the shidduch being made and get my informed haskama, not only would I not trust that shadchan ever again, I would tell my friends not to utilize that person’s services. A lie of omission of that magnitude, is not the same thing as lying about a girl or boy’s age (bad enough to do that). It is a rachmanus that a young person is chalilah ill, and they deserve the happiness of getting married, just as anybody does. But to fail to inform someone that the boy or girl was once very seriously ill with a potentially life-threatening condition, well, that is just unethical in my book. What if the girl and boy were to really like each other, and THEN find out? Now you have the potential for two heartbroken kids, should the well-person not want to take the very real risk of being widowed at an early age (and although people could get hit by a bus crossing the street, yada yada yada, this fear of the cancer returning is far more realistic a concern, given the circumstances).
If this were not a problem, there would be no need for Dor Yesharim, either. Why should anyone be told in advance if there is a genetic disease in the family? Because, to NOT tell, could result in a child being brought forth into the world with a doomed future chas v’sholom.
I understand that not all things have to be told – it is irrelevant if the uncle on the mother’s side lost his job, or there are non-religious members of the extended family. These things can be discovered in the course of dating and really have minimal impact on the couple, for the most part. But if that same uncle is bi-polar, and there is a possibility that the prospective shidduch might also be, the other party has a right to know before going forward with this for even one date, IMO.
>>The prohibition against misleading one’s fellow requires that one not suggest a shidduch unless:
5) He is not aware that one party lacks something that the other is insistent upon, or has something to which the other has explicitly expressed strong objection.<<
Not sure I am arguing here. The first part states that misleading can occur. And the second part gives the exclusion for “insistent” and “explicitly expressed strong objections”. I think this is what I was saying when I gave categories 2 & 3.
oomis: your post was exactly the way my mother would put it! someone in my family years ago, once went out with a boy that feel under this category! on a date when it started getting serious he mentioned his condition! the girl practically feel off her seat & was in shock! the boy said he thought she for sure knew about it! the boy bidafka told the shaddchan & he always said he tells the shaddchan before about it! the shaddchan even admitted to knowing this peice of information, yet felt it wasn’t so important to mention! something like this should have been mentioned by the shaddchan!
jaymatt: places like bonei olam & chai lifeline do shidduchim for those that have/had cancer! for the specific reasons, that most girls/boys will not go out with them cause they were sick! as oomis had put it- It is a rachmanus that a young person is chalilah ill, and they deserve the happiness of getting married, just as anybody does. But to fail to inform someone that the boy or girl was once very seriously ill with a potentially life-threatening condition, well, that is just unethical in my book. What if the girl and boy were to really like each other, and THEN find out? Now you have the potential for two…..
oomis: your post was exactly the way my mother would put it!
Jax, I probably am old enough to BE your mother (if you are in your 20s or early 30s, that is)… 🙂
oomis: yeah i know!
oomis- agreed 100%. Well said
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