- This topic has 56 replies, 26 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Why do I get so upset with my husband when he sleeps in?
I understand he doesn’t concentrate property through his 3 sedorim when he doesn’t have his 7 hours. BUT shachris with a minyin is sooooo important!! I cant help but get really annoyed with him!
How am I wrong?
Well done!
From what I’m understanding is that he’s in kollel. If he’s not going to minyan, then maybe it’s time for him to leave kollel and get a job.
Whats important is not that you are bothered that he doesnt daven with a minyan, it is how you address the situation.
1. I would speak to your rov immediately. I think that you’re treading a dangerous path that can undermine the stability of a marriage and proper guidance is a must
2. How long are you married? While very wrong, there is a de-emphasis among many segments of bochurim as to the importance of teffila b’tzibur. Certainly many bochurim are not like that, but there are many that are. Sometimes it may not even be a gauge as to his yiras shomayim, rather just a cultural shortcoming. Of those, most will move past it as the years go on, but a young married wife can be horrified. Hashkofically she is right, but being that she is culturally not in tuned with the mindset of a bochur she would be misjudging him. The most critical thing though is to have proper hadrocho. Without it a marriage can really suffer.
Rabbonim frequently remark that it is not a wife’s role to be her husband’s mashgiach (or as R’ Shais Taub put it in one column, his parole officer). More generally, getting angry at one’s spouse or trying to forcefully pressure them to do something, especially if it is a religious matter, may not be a good idea. I strongly recommend you read the popular shalom bayis manual Garden of Peace by R’ Shalom Arush (I’ve only read the men’s version but I can tell you from experience that it works wonders — I truly believe it is 100% emes).
i know people that concentrate property, not the way to do it
I’d like to address your question, “Why am I upset?”
The reason you are upset is likely because you have an idealistic (and correct – but that’s irrelevant at this point) picture of how you’d like your household to look.
The same picture applies when a husband comes home and finds the house a mess with his wife stressed (it happens – shockingly!) “instead of” everything being organized with his wife sitting on a chair and saying Tehillim aloud.
You shouldn’t be looking to prove yourself wrong, but you should be able to be sovel your own expectations in face of helping a relationship grow.
As far as helping your husband do what he likely feels is important as well, that’s a different issue but you probably shouldn’t actively address it at this point (at least as long as you’re upset) – as it’s unlikely to go anywhere positive.
On a more personally pro-active level, if you’re also going to sleep at a later hour, it doesn’t make sleeping early for your husband any easier. Maybe try going to sleep earlier youself and see it helps him. But again, that shouldn’t be with an expectation that it will have an impact – just a desire to help.
Hatzlocho!
This definitely seems strange to me. I mean, obviously we shouldn’t judge a person for not being able to daven with a minyan. He has challenges I don’t have and vice versa. But at the same time, you would think a chiyuv like minyan would be a prerequisite for someone who wants to learn (and presumably gets paid to learn) in kollel. A kollel guy who doesn’t commit to davening with a minyan seems a little off.
In my opinion, and experience, it’s not effective to insist that a spouse do something she doesn’t want to do. For example, if my wife is staying up too late and I say, “Go to bed,” she will not listen; instead, she will just get angry.
For this reason, I suggest you encourage him to go to a minyan not by lecturing or bugging him about it, and not even by mentioning it at all, but instead by being a good example and getting into bed early enough so that (if he follows your example and goes to bed soon after) he will get enough sleep to be able to make minyan. Nowadays it is way too easy to stay up too late, with artificial lighting and the internet and smart phones and such. We all need to devote considerable willpower to going to bed at an appropriate time.
An ironic thing about this thread is that I’ve seen stories of well-known rabbis advising their students to daven b’yechidus if necessary for shalom bayis reasons. I personally know people who, more frequently than not, have to daven alone for shalom bayis reasons (to help with the kids, for example).
In any case, while davening with a minyan is very important, it is not required if one has a really good reason not too — and being so sleep deprived you’re in a horrible mood and can’t function (if that’s the case) seems like a good reason. So as long as it only happens sometimes I wouldn’t see it as a horrible thing.
yytz’s idea is a great idea!
im not sure when he has to wake up for his kollel minyan but lets say its 7 then go to bed @ 11:30, whats so important that he has to stay up late?
“After all we are living a life of only avodas Hashem (for now at least)”
“for now at least”. you have plans to live a life that is not one of avodas hashem (c’v) at some point? I know what you mean, and you are seriously mistaken if you believe that once your husband leaves the kollel you will not be living a life of avodas hashem.
Show him R’ Moshe’s T’shuvah about this precise issue.
It is possible to sleep in AND Daven with a Minyan.
Yes, sometimes, but that depends on how many minyanim are available locally…in some places all there is is an early minyan.
HaLeiVi: I believe R’ Moshe has a T’shuvah about that too (might even be the same T’shuvah).
I do not really see why you should be upset. Should one go to minyan if it would cause him to lose out on 7 hours of good learning? lets get our priorities straight,
YOSEF (Joseph, right? This has to be Joseph): Kol HaLomed Shelo Al M’nas La’asos Raui Lo Shelo Ba L’olam. Her priorities are quite straight. As are R’ Moshe Feinstein’s.
wow your a holy soul to care so deeply about anothers ruchnius! i mean that. i pray i have a wife one day like that. Shachris is important, i find it a bit funny the reasons you listed are all the reasons that apply for a woman also, for men the main reason to doven with a minyan is for saying the Amidah prayer with a minyan, one’s prayers are m’kabal when we doven with a minyan, when dovening alone our prayers are inspected and only if said with proper cavana are they accepted. ofcourse there is no din of minyan by women.
Why do I get so upset with my husband when he sleeps in? Then practice what you preach, and go with him to Shacharis. How about waking up early for Shacharis and preparing coffee for your husband and yourself, and then driving yourself & your husband to Shacharis. This method is guaranteed to work to get your husband to Shacharis.
Meanwhile I who do attend Shacharis services daily, am much more bothered by habitual latecomers including so called frumies always Makpid about wearing white shirt & dark suit, but also always Makpid to be very late to Shacharis even when Shacharis is later such as Sundays & July 4th.
By definition:- On time to Shacharis is defined as being 5 minutes early so that your are already clad in Tallis & Tefillin when services commence.
If its important to you then it is (or at least should be) important to him. Communication is key. Why not sit down one day when you are calm and collected and express your feelings to him? Oftentimes spouses don’t even realize that something they are doing is irking their spouse. It seems from what you wrote that he is aware of your frustration. It’s possible he doesn’t comprehend the degree of frustration you feel.
I’d be more concerned about the cigarettes than the minyan.
YY -I agree! This is what goes on – people think it’s alright to miss Davening. The truth is Davening is part of the Sidrey Hayeshiva, whether you like it or not.
Many a mornings I have attempted to wake early to prepare my husband his coffee and cigarette Every single puff of a cigarette is an absolute violation of a Chiyuv Min haToroh of ‘veNishmartem Me’od leNafshoseeichem’ {A Possuk we are reading in just another 34 days time}. No Toroh obligation can ever be violated [not even 1 time] to attend a Minyan for Shacharis.
147- I think you’re reading into things – the CIG has nothing to do with Davening. The CIG and coffee are part of his morning routine.
“@apushatayid
“After all we are living a life of ONLY avodas Hashem (for now at least)”.
And I asked if you ever plan to live a life that is not one of avodas hashem? Instead of answering the question, you repeated your statement, this time with emphasis on the word ONLY. So, I will ask you again, do you have plans to ever live a life that is not one that is ONLY one of avodas hashem?
chochom-ibber: T’fillah B’tzibbur is more important than being on time for Seder. If your husband can’t understand that, then it is clear he is not learning properly.
Davening with a minyan and being on time for seder are serious issues, but whether you should slowly commit suicide — which is really what smoking is (see R’ Avigdor Miller on this issue) — is obviously a matter of life or death! It’s no exaggeration to say it could kill you, too — second-hand smoke is a serious cause of cancer that kills a lot of people, spouses included! It’s also a chillul Hashem, assuming he smokes in public — he’s devoting himself full-time to the Torah and yiddishkeit but he’s enslaved to a disgusting habit even the most uneducated of the non-Jews know is deadly? If I were you, I would put aside everything else and put all your efforts into getting him to stop smoking.
Smoking isn’t regular suicide–it slowly kills everyone around the smoker as well.
The Gemara in Berachos 8a says:
??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????
Based on this the Tur in O.C. Siman 90 says:
??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????
Perhaps the husband in this saga is relying on this. At least we should be dan lekaf zechus as we see from the Maharsha an amud earlier – the gemara says:
??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?’ ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?’ ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???????
The Maharsha quotes the Tur and says that R’ Yitzchak must have known that R’ Nachman did not have a ???? ???? in his house. This implies that if R’ Yitzchak did not know for sure then he would have been dan lakaf zechus that R’ Nachman davened beyechidus because of this issue.
Although granted Lehalacha this is not the accepted practice (see the continuation of the Tur as well as the Shulchan Aruch and Rema) it is at least a limud zechus.
PAA: Are you familiar with R’ Moshe’s T’shuvah on the subject?
are you seriously gonna start lecturing about smoking here? golly!
luz up!
By definition:- On time to Shacharis is defined as being 5 minutes early so that your are already clad in Tallis & Tefillin when services commence.
this isnt true. its very possible it takes someone less time to daven with full kavanah than it takes your minyan to. now you need to make up a new definition.
well leave the white shirt comment for a different time, i gotta go to sleep
is davening with a minyan deoraisa? what about learning torah all day long?
Sam2:
????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???? ??
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14673&st=&pgnum=76
and
????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ? ???? ??
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14675&st=&pgnum=200
Neither one really contradicts what I said. (There are two seperate issues – bittul torah and davening in the place where you learn. I only mentioned the second one.) In fact according to R’ Moshe’s pshat in the Rema, then the case is even stronger than I made it out to be for davening beyechidus, even halacha lemaiseh.
Correct me if you know of a different Teshuva that speaks about this.
“I’d be more concerned about the cigarettes than the minyan.”
Me, too.
“is davening with a minyan deoraisa”
Of course not — tefillah b’tzibbur is clearly rabbinic in origin. In fact, according to Ramban (disputing Rambam) tefillah itself is rabbinic in origin.
“is davening with a minyan deoraisa”
No, but “Vnishmartem” is.
I have a similar question. I have class till relatively late a few nights a week near a community which has multiple minyanim for Maariv. Where I live there is only a minyan right after shkiah. I usually have a chavrusa at night, but if I wait around to daven Maariv with a minyan, I will be getting home too late for my chavrusa. Is it better to keep a consistent seder with my chavrusa and daven Maariv beyechidus? Or should I be makpid to daven with a minyan at the expense of my chavrusa?
Good question. Ask your Rav.
Start by appreciating that the value of every word of Torah and Tefilla that we say is infinite, and that we should be incredibly grateful to Hashem for allowing us to know that we have Someone to daven to and Someone Whose Torah to learn (the vast majority of people in the world don’t know these things). Once we start with that, all the details do certainly need to be worked out, but keep them in perspective that those are just details and the main thing is that we know and appreciate that there is a Main Thing.
PAA: The second T’shuvah you quoted. That’s not like you at all. He should go to the Minyan in Yeshivah, even if it necessitates going to sleep earlier out of his night Seder.
In the second one the shaila is about bittul torah not about davening in the place where you learn. He brings it in at the end when he quotes the first teshuva. Regarding that issue it’s mefurash that it’s docheh tefilla b’tzibur, however there are other considerations such as the Teshuva the Tur quotes from the Rosh that the multitudes will learn not to come to shul either. This is why I noted in my original post that Lemaiseh one shouldn’t rely on this halacha and I said that I am only being melamed zechus. But R’ Moshe definitely seems to be agreeing that M’ikar Hadin davening in the place where you learn (especially when combined with the sevara of bittul torah) is docheh tefilla b’tzibur.
PAA: Yes, but that doesn’t help because this is not an issue of Davening where you learn vs Shul. It’s an issue of Yechidus vs Tzibbur, where the Tzibbur option is (presumably) where you learn.
Sam2:
I’m not disagreeing with you. I was careful in my first post to only say that we should be dan lekaf zechus that maybe the husband has a ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? – after all nowhere in this thread did Chochom-ibber say that her husband learns in a kollel/beis medrash/yeshivah/shul.
PAA: Everyone learns in their homes. I can’t prove it, but I have long thought that you cannot give your own house a Din of a Beis Medrash. It’s a house; you live there. I have also thought that you cannot apply this Rama/Gemara of Makom D’Garsi to one’s own house, though I can’t prove that either. But Libi Omer Li that it has to be a place where the Ikkar Kavua is learning, not living.
There is no OBLIGATION to hear Kaddish. Nor is there an obligation for an individual to hear the Torah reading. There are Poskim who hold that praying with a minyan is not obligatory either. We may not follow those opinions but it helps to keep them in mind to enable you to be more patient and understanding. I would not rebuke him. That is the role of his Rav or Rosh Kollel. What you can do is clarify why it really pains you and share your feelings with him.
Just to add something I once heard from one of my rebbeim. It is completely unfair to compare bachurim, and even young kollel men to 60 year olds in regards to tfilla btzibur. While, yes, ideally someone who spends their whole day learning should obviously be davening btzibur, a young man often has not yet learned enough discipline in his life to do something consistently. After having a couple kids who wake up at 7 and need to be fed, taken to school etc.. a father will naturally become more scheduled out of necessity. Therefore I wouldn’t be overly concerned.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.