- This topic has 21 replies, 9 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Has anybody heard of a halchah regarding having a bigger shiur for the first kos of the seder when its friday night kiddush? Sources…
Friday night Kiddush is Deorysa Source: Shemos 20:8 with Gemara
Arba Kossos is derabanan.
when unsure regarding shiur (or most things for that matter) by deoraysa we are machmir and by derbanan meikel. Hence the bigger shiur for the Deoraisa first kos/Kiddush on Friday night
The short answer is yes. As ubiquitin says, there is a mochlokes how many ounces are in a reviis, so for kiddush on Shabbos, which is d’Oraisa (although wine isn’t), it’s better to use the larger shiur.
I don’t remember a source offhand, but if you google, you’ll find Rabbi Doniel Neustadt saying this.
Y”T kiddush is also d’oraysa, acc. to a p’ri m’gadim, I don’t remember offhand where.
its a machlokes rishonim as to whether al hakos is dioraysah or not.
iyb: Pashtus is according to most there is still the Kiyum D’Oraisa on the D’Rabbanan Chiyuv to do it Al HaKos.
There is a very minority Shittah in the Rishonim that Kiddush (and Havdalah!) Al HaKos is D’Oraisa. See Nazir 4a (maybe 5a) and the Rishonim there.
the pm”g I quoted before is in eishel avraham 296:11
I believe required amount for the 4 Kossos is deemed to be 3.3 fluid ounces albeit there is an entire gamete ranging anywhere from 2.5 to 5.1 fluid ounces.
For 1st cup on a Friday nite, the required amount generally is deemed to be 4.42 fluid ounces. Notwithstanding, if the Ba’al haSeder is being Motzi everyone else’s Kiddush, then only he requires 4.42 fluid ounces, and everyone else only requires 3.3 fluid ounces.
Furthermore albeit Kiddush on Friday nite is 4th commandment, yet the 4th commandment is to announce/sanctify Shabbos, but not necessarily on wine, so even iof one did end up making Kiddush on 3.3 fluid ounces, one would probably be Yotze anyways.
Furthermore, according to Rambam [whose birthday is coming up this Friday, since he was born on Shabbos Erev Pesach] even Havdolo after Shabbos is part of this 4th commandment, but no-one seems to mention having a larger 1st kos on Moztei Shabbos.
Another question:- Do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chayil this Friday evening prior to Kiddush on 1st cup?
Another question:- Do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chayil this Friday evening prior to Kiddush on 1st cup?
No
We want to start the seder right away kidei di kleiner kinder zullen nisht einshlufin
147, according to Chazon Ish, 5.3 oz.
Do you ubiquitin plan to skip Bensching your {grand}children at this most auspecious hour for benedictions?
“Another question:- Do we chant Sholom Aleichem & Eshes Chayil this Friday evening prior to Kiddush on 1st cup?”
Absolutely yes. It’s Friday night.
Source: Luach Eretz Yisrael 5775, Y.M. Ticochinsky, the standard luach for all Ashkenazim.
Standard minhag is not to
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46448&st=&pgnum=309
I have never seen it printed in a Hagada, obviously this isnt the strongest rayah, though it certainly indicates that the “standard” minhag is not to say it. (Of course it may be printers were cheap to print it so people stopped saying it, regardless it certainly indciates that it wasnt said.)
As always if your minhag is to say it, then by all means.
Incidently i’ve looked through old hagadahs and they (almost) never have Shir Hamalos printed before benching. I’m not sure why this is. Any thoughts?
Old man, since when is a luach an authority on halacah?
Lyb, yes, every Friday night is the same.
Lyb
“First, According to those that are saying that kiddush you shod be Machmir with the shiur, then you should be machmir every Friday night.”
Agreed. but see below
“Second, in Shulchan aruch it only mentions a machlokes regarding the kzayis for matzah, … But nowhere does it mention to be machmir by a kos,if it is a doyraysa kos, to use the bigger shiur.”
Why would it be different? When you are unsure/have machlokes regardign shiurim by Deorisa’s me machmir and d’rabanas be meikel. Why would there be a difference between MAtzah and Ksosos?
” If your are machmir to use the biggest shiur by mitzvos in general, then be machmir by the first kis as well. If your not usually machmir in general for the bigger shiur in mitzvos than you won’t have to be machmir here.”
By defintion you never “have to be machmir” If a person wants to be machmir with some mitzvas and not others tovoi alav bracha! Why is it all or nothing? (Especialy given the aformentioned distinction between Deoraysa and Drbanan)
“If your going to want to use the Chazon Ish’s shita for the first kos, you might as well wear the long tzitzis all year round”
Wait what? Mai Inyan shmita Eitzel Har Sinai? How did you even make the conecion MAtzah to tzitizis? A person want to be machmir with a mitzva that is chaviv and comes once a week (or once a year if only PEsach he is makpid, or even once every 3.5 years if he is makpid only when the first night PEsach is Shabbos) Would you say no first get bigger Tzitzis?
For the young, the ba’alei tshuvah, and the uninitiated or uneducated,
Lu’ach Eretz Yisrael was first published by Harav Yechiel Michel Tikochinsky in 1905 in Yerushalayim for the “yishuv hayashan”, when Rav Shmuel Salant zt”l was Rabba shel Yerushalayim IH”K.This is minhag haprushim talmidei haGra, and has been accepted since day one as the only authority for minhagei eretz yisrael. It has all the minhagim and dinim of the year, including the davening, times of the molad, krias hatorah and haftorah, olos hashachar, netz tables and more.
Do we say bameh madlikin? Till when can we eat chametz? When is bi’ur ma’asrot? Do we say ka keli? Do we say lamenatzeach? Do we say tachanun? Can I get a haircut erev pesach? Does this village keep 14 or 15 Adar for Purim? When does the chazan take the sefer torah during rosh chodesh bentching? Where should I put my menorah on Chanukah? It’s all in there.
The lu’ach is sold in Elul at all seforim stores or straight from the Tikuchinsky family. It is the only lu’ach accepted by all, mostly because it is the only lu’ach at all. (The rabbanut also has a lu’ach, but it is Rabbanut oriented, Zionist, has minhagei hasefaradim,and is not comprehensive, r”l. No one in the ashkenazic yeshivishe world uses it)
Needless to say, not all sects keep all the same minhagim, timetables or psakim, but those differences are the exception and not the rule. Those who know, also know when their private or community’s minhag deviates from the lu’ach and they act accordingly.
A few years ago, a chutz la’aretz version was published and is available in America.
In summary, in Israel, when there is a question in shul,whether in Meah She’arim, Bet Shemesh, Telzstone or Kiryat Sefer,(or even Tel Aviv) the answer is always “Do what the lu’ach says”.
The lu’ach says to say Sholom Aleichem on the seder night.
Ok, so here are the sources on this:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14171&st=&pgnum=99&hilite=
The ????? ???? here (??”? ?”? ??”? ?? ??????) says one should be ????? on the ??”?’s ????? for ????? ???? ??? because ???? ??? ????????.
Earlier, in ‘?”? ?”? ?, he equates ????? ???? ??”?.
The ????? ??? ?????? in ??? ?”? ???? ? adds that for ????? we should also use the bigger ?????.
I have never seen it printed in a Hagada, ubiquitin:- Likewise we steadfastly follow the 15 steps of Kadesh uRechatz etc. Since we follow these 15 steps so vigilantly and no deviations therefrom, we take note that there are 2 mentions of washing:- uRechatz and Rochtzo, but there is no mention of a Rechitza between Tzofun & Borech, so clearly based on these 15 steps:- No washing before Borech {= no Mayim Acharonim}.
147
1) Ken zayn the minhag is/was not to wash mayim achronim at the seder. Rationales for minhagim are easy to make up: since mayim achronim is primarily for melech sedomis causing harm, on leil shimurim there is no concern
2) Youll note I never said it was the strongest rayah
3) I’m not sure how long the “minhag” of wetting fingers for mayim achronim is, but while I’m sure there are people who actually wash their hands IVe never actually seen it.
4) Not being included in the simanim is not the same as not being in the haggadah. Dont you find it strange that (almost?) every hggadah has kiddush printed incuding Vayechulu yet rarely (if ever) does it have Sholom aleicehm?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.