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shlishi- He did not write apikorsus and the vendetta agaisnt him was pure malice. The various rabbonim did not even read his nooks to be able to judge. This is a fact.
Sam: That, too, is incorrect. Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky signed a letter, together with the other gedolim, condemning his works. And Hagaon HaRav Aharon Feldman shlita most certainly does speak English. Natively, I might add.
off topic
just to confirm that gedolim arent pawns: i personally saw the handwritten/typed letter of rebuttal that R shlomo miller shlita of toronto wrote against slifkins theories of time and creation. R shlomo also speaks english, and maybe even better than you.
Shlishi: That whole controversy aside, this particular article of his is quite enlightening. He may have published borderline Shittos that we clearly don’t hold by in the past, but he himself is certainly not an Apikores (he is certainly not more of a rationalist than the Rambam was).
I actually admire R’Slifkin for the way he didn’t let the Da’as Torah machine just steamroll him into contrition.
He presented legit views and theories on issues regarding science and Torah. Just because some of those ideas dont fit into the “Charedi narrative” doesn’t give the right for some askanim with an agenda to brand him a non believer.
The whole debate doesnt pass the smell test, especially the timing of it all (Pashkavalim going up erev Yom Kippur)
anywhoo..I’m wondering if they are calling it Shaas Shmad because they are geniunely concerned about limud hatorah and it’s ability to “protect” the nation..or is it because it shows an entire population that there is life as a frum jew outside of the beis medrish. And like rumspringa with the Amish, it offers its members a choice (albeit a slightly different one)
crisis- im smelling troll. all your posts on the threads today were provocative and lame. sums it up well.
Nah…not a troll..just someone who can pass as one of you when I need to.
And my posts are insighhtful,hillarious, and sarcastic.
Plus wouldn’t this place be boring if it were just a bunch of people who think exactly like you?
Toi: He’s being an anti-Joseph. Maybe we should just let the two (i.e. 200) of them bash each other over the heads in their own thread somewhere.
Sam, who are “we”?Do you consider Rambam “borderline”.
Shlishi and Toi, Rabbi Aryeh Carmell, Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky, Rabbi Yisroel Belsky, Rabbi Chaim Malinowitz and Rav Tzvi Hersh Weinreb suppport Rav Slifkin. Rav Zeev Leff publically apologized for his condemnation and declared neutrality regarding whether Rav Slifkin is correct or incorrect.Here is Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky’s letter”:
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Avi,
You’d have to find something more current than that.
Avi: Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky signed a subsequent letter condemning him. Rav Belsky, too, is against his writings.
Shlishi, produce the letters. In nay case, many rabbanim support him and at least some of those only signed because someone else signed – which is absolutely unbelievable both regarding the subject at hand and the ramifications.
Avi- thats like ignoring the fact that bar coziba died and still claiming hes moshiach. brilliant.
crisis- youll never pass as anyone with any yedios and kishrin just by stirring.
Avi: The Rambam is certainly a tremendous support to rely on. But standard Jewish thought nowadays is nowhere near as rationalistic as the Rambam is. The Rambam was too rationalistic for his own time. That’s why some burned his books. Kal V’chomer would he be on the fringe if he lived today, after us having 700 years of Kaballah being incorporated.
Sam, what is “standard Jewish thought”? As for burning the Rambam’s books, Rabbenu Yona held that the Talmud was burned in Paris as a punishment for this and went to all of the communities where he denounced the Rambam and publically recanted.
Our gedolim are brilliant. Our gedolim are tzadikim. Our gedolim are incredible guides for us and doros to come. No question. But our gedolim are not infallible. We leave infallibility to the catholics and their pope. Making them out to be such introduces a goyish mentality into yiddishkeit.
And you Toi, and Shlishi, simply by posting here, are demonstrating that you don’t accept all of the psakim of the gedolei hador, so where do you get the gumption for criticizing someone else for doing the same thing?
Avi K: I honestly have no idea how to determine normative Halachah in these topics. There just seems to be a range that people are willing to accept. Beyond that range, even with Rishonim that back it up, does not fall into “standard Jewish thought”. What is clear is that calling all of Ma’aseh B’reishis a Mashal does not fall in this range, even though there are Rishonim that said it first. Does this make R’ Slifkin an Apikores? I would say probably not (he does have a fair few Rishonim to rely upon), though it’s clear that several tremendous Talmidei Chachamim think it does. What it does do, according to everyone, is make his books controversial, to say the least. And your pointing out the eventual acceptance of the Rambam (and that apparently Shamayim wanted us to accept him, for however much that actually matters) in no way affects my point.
yichusdik- lie. internet is needed in my house for school/parnassa. heter. with a filter and image blocker. lie.
Toi – internet may be needed, but according to what I have been advised many of those gedolim involved in the inyan have said, it shouldn’t be used except for those things. So – how is your education or your parnossah advanced by posting on yeshivaworld?
ohr chodesh – I was talking about the principle of the matter, and you make it personal. Poor debating skills. If Moshe Rabeinu could make mistakes, and Dovid hamelech could make mistakes, so could the holiest people of our generation. It makes them no less holy, no less worthy of being our guides. We don’t need to emulate the gentiles to recognize their greatness.
These things seem to change with time and klal yisroel’s experience. The rambam says it is apikorsus to say Hashem has a body – the Raavad says gedolim ve’tovim mimenu said Hashem does have a body – we would side with the Rambam – probably becuase of our experiences with Christianity
Our chodosh, their biggest wrongs came at the end of the 19th century when they failed to recognize that centuries old shtetl isolation culture was falling apart and million’s of Jews were emigrating to the USA. Because they didn’t recognize the changes, many emigrating Jews were lost to Yiddishkeit and many of the Jews who stayed. In Europe were either killed or were lost to Yiddishkeit under the Soviets
How do you know which times the gedolim are right and which times they are wrong? And can you please let everyone else know when you’ve made a determination that the gedolim are wrong on a matter?
Anytime someone points out a case when the Gedolim were wrong, an excuse is made like You didnt really understand what they said, or if had listened they would have been correct.
The simplest is, The gedolim who said to stay in Europe in the 50 year before WW II, when Jews first started emigrating to the US, the Gedolim said it was a “Traif Medina” and assur to go. When the US was closed to immigrants and in the 1930’s with the advents of Nazism , Palestine was still open to Jews (Until The 1939 White paper) and the Gedolim said Palestine was “Traif” and assur to go.
Had some gedolim emigrated to the US and Palestine (Rav Kook did go to palestine, but of course many Charedim didnt agree with him) Perhaps yeshivas could have been built in the 1910-1920’s in the US for example
Does this make R’ Slifkin an Apikores? I would say probably not (he does have a fair few Rishonim to rely upon), though it’s clear that several tremendous Talmidei Chachamim think it does.
In all fairness, what I heard (which goes well with the Charaidi mindset) is that the Shittos themselves are NOT Apikorsus. However, bringing these shittos out in the open could cause questions that might make OTHERS become apikorsim or go off the derech.
That makes the question not one of Halacah, but of Hanhaga. Even the Pope is not considered infallible in matters of Hanhaga, only doctrine.
There was no limits to immigration to palestine until the White Paper came out, HOWEVER it was not seen as desireable to go, there was starvation , hostile neighbors etc. It was seen as a lower standard of living Palestine in the 30’s than Europe was, The USA was alaways seen as better
However there was a fairly large German Jewish emigration in the 30’s with the advent of Nazism.
Better a physical death in Europe than a spiritual death in America.
This is nonsense, Did Rav Moshe , Rav Aharon Kotler or others who were able to escape hold by this shitta.
Those who said to stay were wrong, What they should have done is send Rabbaim to the USA and built Yeshivas. Already around the year 1900 New York City had the largest jewish population in the World and it might have been the richest as well as many Roshei Yeshivot went to NY to Fund Raise, but did not say to use the money there to built yeshivas in NY
Ohr Chodosh, you aren’t debating with anyone. My point is not to be the town crier for when one or the other godol makes a mistake or makes a decision which turns out to have had unintended consequences; My point is also not to tell people not to follow gedolim – follow who you feel is your manhig and for what you need his hanhogo.
My point is that the relatively recent phenomenon of “godol infallibility” is a minhag akum. Look at the kaporoh sought by the megaleh amukos for his wrong decision, which he felt cost the lives of his three brothers in law. Look at the feud between Rav Yaakov Margoliyos and Rav Yehudah Mintz. R yonasan Eybeshutz and R yaakov Emden. There was a right and a wrong in each of these cases.
Boruch Hashem that our gedolim are human and can relate to our frailties. You want to set up our gedolim as beyond mistakes?
That’s not Yiddishkeit. Its kim’at kfira.
The White Paper was before Germany invaded Poland setting off a world war.
No one believes in godol infallibility. That accusation is merely leveled by those who don’t like being told by rabbonim on how to act. Though, I don’t know how any non-godol can purport to know when a godol is incorrect.
wow- I am not sure that I want to enter this discussion- but I’d
like to ask ohr chodesh specifically and the others who think like him- do you truly believe that every word of a Rov is infallible? No one can make a mistake? Moshe rabbeinu, dovid hamelech, rabbi Akiva, the ones who oppose ther Rambam, the rabbonim who supported Shabsai zvi(there were many!), the followers of the Gro who put all chassidim in cherem….the list is long…our faith does NOT accept infallibility and does not even accept a sign from heavens ! (R’Eliezer did not win his debate with the chachomim….in spite of shomayim being on his side !)It is up to us- as human beings- to evaluate our chachomim. Even in halacha, there is no infallibity, let alone in “milei de’alma”.
I don’t want to re-fight the arguments about the Holocaust and the medinah- but clearly, the gedolim who directly dissuaded people in Europe to flee were wrong, and the gedolim who continue to fight the medina will end up on the wrong side of history. (they already are) ‘Ein tsaddik bo-oretz asher lo jechto”
our faith does NOT accept infallibility and does not even accept a sign from heavens ! (R’Eliezer did not win his debate with the chachomim….in spite of shomayim being on his side !)It is up to us- as human beings- to evaluate our chachomim.
This is incorrect. To see this, note that the reason R’ Eliezer did not win his debate was because the halacha goes with the rabim over the yachid, i.e. the rabim being other gadolim on the Sanhedrin. Thus, this ma’aseh does not constitute proof that it is “us” that evaluate our chachomim. This ma’aseh suggests it is other gadolim who do so.
ohr chodesh: You misunderstood. I paraphrased the letter from Rav Aharon Feldman regarding Rav Elyashiv Z”TL shitta on the book. It is not Minus or Apikorsus. So say the Gedolim. Or if you want to try something novel, do some research for yourself.
the White paper passed parliment in May 1939
There was a huge spike in jewish emigration to Palestine from 1933-1937 especially due to emigration from Germany. In 1937 the Arabs rioted so even though immigration was legal, it was difficult
No one believes in godol infallibility. That accusation is merely leveled by those who don’t like being told by rabbonim on how to act. Though, I don’t know how any non-godol can purport to know when a godol is incorrect.
So, in other words, you’ll agree that they’re not infallible, but, nonetheless, give them functional infallibility (i.e. treat them as if they are right, even if everyone else agrees that they’re wrong).
The Wolf
Whether people are right ot wrong to think Gedolim are infallible, dont compare to avi avos hatuma chas vishalom and dont say such unbased things like its kimat kfira. All it is is a well meaning mistake if anything. How in the world is it kfira to think gedolim are infallible? Dont let your heart run out before you and then conform your opinions with your emotianal impulse. And this should be really obvious, when it comes to Hashkafa, we dont give a darn if the rest of the world does it if its emes. There is absolutely no reason to assume that this (true or untrue) way of thinking comes from goyim lihavdil anyways. If you had even a bit of Ahavas Yisroel or common sense you wouldnt have let this shtus enter your head.
Ohr chodosh, even if the Nazis hadn’t happened the world the gedolim knew was collapsinng.You didn’t have to go to the US to become frei . Jews were leaving the shtetls and assimilation, and all the isms (the socialism, communism, anarchism. )were already making deep inroads. They didn’t forded that unlike the tsars, who for the most part allowed us to practice Yiddishkeit, the Soviets would close down yeshivas and shuls and attempt to stamp out Yiddishkeit.
” I don’t know how any non-godol can purport to know when a godol is incorrect.”
Well, for one thing many of us like to deal with these inconvenient things called facts and many of us have some specialized knowledge in certain narrow areas or fields. An expert can tell when anyone, even a godol is making a statement about something relating to their speciality without understanding certain facts. Thes e days the obvious examples are technology related but there are plenty of other examples
Just about the only field that I can think of gedolim being acknowledged by professionals in the field is medicine. And there only because of years of consulting with doctors to learn the ropes, not with asskanim
Rav spent eighteen month with a cattle driver to learn about mumim before he checked bechorot (Sanhedrin 5b).
So, in other words, you’ll agree that they’re not infallible, but, nonetheless, give them functional infallibility (i.e. treat them as if they are right, even if everyone else agrees that they’re wrong).
The Wolf
Who’s everyone else?
Zahavasdad, I am not saying a Godol can not make a mistake, but the proof from the emigrarion shailah is not a good one.Going to America since the end of 19-th century till mid 20-th one was a trip to otd and losing olam habah, if not for the person himself, then for his children. The situation in Europe did not become obviously dangerous till 1938. The mass immigration to the US was ended by the 1924 act of Congress.Till 1938, according to what was seen, the psak was the right psak. It is easy to speak now after we see what happened — they did not know it would. In E.Yisroel, the Yidden needed miracles (and they got them) in 1942 and in 1948, and in 1967, and later. It is good they got them. It could have gone differently, though.
Quick answer to 557- if i remember , the chachomim said “torah lo bashomayim hih”-mesning that r’eliezer’s views had to stand against the chachomim and- as you note- the rabbim won. My point was that infallibity is not part of the talmudic lexicon, even if the heavens support you. Same today- no chacham has infallibility-not in matters of halacha and certainly not in matters of “milei de’alma”.
to mdd- from 1933 onwards, jews in europe knew that matters were very dangerous. after 1838 and certainly after the evian conference in that year, every jew knew that matters were desperate. yet- the rabbonim in poland and hungary continued to advise jews not to leave europe- whether to the US or to israel. Please note that I am not accusing the chachmim of that dor of anything- they acted according to their beleifs- but ,clearly, it puts to rest the idea thast chachomim and gedolim are infallible.They are not.
Things were bad for jews in Europe even before 1933. There was mass starvation and pogroms, Why do you think Jews came to the USA. Why was it called the Goldena Medina. People needed incomes.
And What if The Gedolim said, NYC is the largest Jewish Population in the World (And this was in 1900) Lets send some of the biggest Gedolim there to start Yeshivas, to run shuls etc. There were already over 1 Million jews in NYC in 1900. How many yeshivas could have been built, How many Neshamas could have been saved.
And Not only that , when the Holocaust DID occur, they might have been in a better situation to lobby the government to help the Jews, Instead Steven Wise was Roosevelts right hand man and he had his own ideas (as did several Jews in Congress at that time)
Zahavasdad, wrong! Ye, the Jews needed incomes, but going to the US meant otd and no olam habah. Needing incomes does not matir aveiros! Sending over some Gedolim would not have helped — there were tremendous nisyoynons with keeping Shabbos. Also,some people just wanted to go off the derech.
The ta’anah about the Holocaust is preposterous. Nobody could have known what was going to happen untill it was to late.
yichusdik:
“If Moshe Rabeinu could make mistakes, and Dovid hamelech could make mistakes, so could the holiest people of our generation.”
This is completely true. The Torah explicitly tells us that Moshe Rabeinu, one of the greatest men of all time, made a mistake. (By Dovid Hamelech it’s not quite as simple – kol ha’omer Dovid chateh aynoh elah tu’ah.) But if you look through the Torah, you’ll find that every single person who thought that Moshe was wrong ended up on the wrong side of history, and more often then not ended up dead. Seriously, take a moment and think about all the different groups that, at one point or another, decided Moshe was wrong. Korach, Dosson and Aviram, the Miraglim, then the ones who decided to go into Eretz Yisroel after the miraglim, etc, etc, etc. All of them – dead. And the time that Moshe did indeed make a mistake, the only one who realized was Hashem. So can Gedolim make mistakes? Absolutely. But it is still far from our place to think that we can decide when that happens.
“”No one believes in godol infallibility. That accusation is merely leveled by those who don’t like being told by rabbonim on how to act. Though, I don’t know how any non-godol can purport to know when a godol is incorrect.”
So, in other words, you’ll agree that they’re not infallible, but, nonetheless, give them functional infallibility (i.e. treat them as if they are right, even if everyone else agrees that they’re wrong).
The Wolf”
Precisely. As R’ Ahron Feldman put it , disagreeing with the Gedolim does not make us heretics, merely arrogant fools (paraphrased).
lesschumras:
Do you really, honestly believe that you are smarter than pretty much all of the Gedolim of the last 100 years? If the answer to that question is no, I have no idea how you can possibly say the things you’ve just said… and if the answer is yes, you might just be the most arrogant fool I’ve ever met.
On the pre-Holocaust immigration issue, Rav Dessler wrote an extremely sharp letter against the people who had these exact taynos on the Gedolim… y’all may want to look it up.
Although I realize the thread is now way past this point, this particular comment has irked me into responding anyway.
Naftush:
“nothing happening today deserves this kind of rhetoric. Believe it or not, there were times when Am Yisrael didn’t have 60,000 full-time learners, and the world spun on its axis anyway.”
True. And throughout all those thousands of years, life has never, ever been half as good for then is it is now. Then, we often literally did not have food to eat; now we live in wealth and comfort that could not have been dreamed of a mere 50 years. Then, the goyim made our lives miserable with anti-semitic laws, beatings, and pogroms (by many names); now we can practice our Religion in all but complete peace and security. Coincidence? I (and apparently, R’ Chaim Kanievsky) think not. Torah is the source of everything we have; weaken it, and we will end up with more problems, not less.
After much time spent on Google, I have managed to locate an article that quotes the aforementioned letter from R’ Dessler on Emunas Chachamim:
Rabbi Dessler’s letter concerning faith in the sages (emunat chakhamim) opens with criticism of the questioner:
This introduction gives us a fairly clear idea of the question that had been posed to Rabbi Dessler. Since the letter is dated 1944, the issue was a burning, fraught one: at this very time the annihilation of Jews was proceeding at full speed. News of what was going on in Europe was circulating, but precise information had still not made its way to many places. Thus, for example, further on in the same letter Rabbi Dessler speaks of Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman in the present tense, while in fact he had been murdered three years previously. Rabbi Dessler sets forth his reply as follows:
“First of all I want to tell you that I had the merit to know several of these great ones personally, and I have observed them at meetings on matters concerning Klal Yisrael; such as the Chafetz Chaim of sainted memory, Rabbi Chaim Brisker of sainted memory and Rabbi Chaim Ozer of sainted memory; and I can tell you with all sincerity that the amazing agility of their minds could be perceived even by puny intellects such as ours; the depth of their wisdom penetrated down into he very abyss; there was not the slightest chance that anyone like you or me could follow completely the crystal-like clarity of their understanding. And more: whoever was present at their meetings could see with his own eyes the extent and depth of the sense of responsibility with which they approached these matters; it could be seen on their faces, when they deliberated for the sake of Heaven and devoted their minds to considering the problems of Klal Yisrael. Anyone who did not see this has never seen feelings of responsibility in his life. Whoever had the merit to stand before them on such an occasion could have no doubt that he could see the Shekhina resting on the work of their hands and that the Holy spirit was present in their assembly. One could certainly make the blessing “He Who separates between holy and profane” on the difference between their meetings and the kind of meetings we are used to nowadays.
I expect you are aware of what Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman (may he live a long life) relates concerning the spiritual power of his teacher, the Chafetz Chaim of sainted memory. You must know, my revered friend, that Rabbi Elchanan is certainly very great, and it would be wrong to set aside his words, much less to reject them, because of what we puny people think that we see with our own eyes. Our Rabbis have told us to listen to the words of the Sages “even if they tell us that right is left,” and not to say, God forbid, that they must be wrong because little I “can see their mistake with my own eyes.” My seeing is null and void and utterly valueless compared with the clarity of their intellect and the divine aid they receive. No Beth Din can revoke the decrees of another Beth Din unless it is greater in number and in wisdom; failing this it is very likely that what they think they “can see with their own eyes” is merely imagination and illusion. This is the Torah view concerning faith in the Sages.”
Rabbi Dessler’s response adopts a virulent tone quite uncharacteristic of his writings in general. He devotes his main efforts to describing the greatness and righteousness of such leaders as the Chafetz Chaim, Rabbi Chaim Ozer Grodzinsky, and Rabbi Elchanan Wasserman, who negated Zionism and discouraged aliya. By virtue of their greatness, he argues, their guidance as leaders should not be viewed as the advice of mortal leaders; rather “the Holy Spirit is present in their assembly.” In other words, when such great and righteous Jewish sages gather together, it is impossible for their conclusions to be mistaken.
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