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Let us all take up a commitment to take Shamayim by storm with our Tefilos to, with the Ribono Shel Olam’s vital assistance, defeat the Shas Shmad the Zionists in Israel are attempting against Klal Yisroel’s Bnei Torah, with their evil attempt to force them out of the Butei Medrashim and draft them into their immoral Army.
As per Gedolei Yisroel shlita, including Rav Shteinman, Rav Auerbach, Chacham Ovadia, and many others.
A ??? ??? requires one to give up their life in resistance. Or certainly to go to prison.
Perhaps the Israeli State is in the process of building new prisons to house hundreds of thousands of Chareidim, following the call of ????? ?????. I read that Netanyahu said pushing it through may lead to civil war.
And, while you are davening, try ask ???”? that no ????? ??? should occur if the decree is ?”? decreed – the people in ?”? will listen to the ?????? and only get violent on the command of the ?????? ????. If ????? breaks loose because of this command, they have defeated a major opportunity to make a huge ????? ?’!!!
I don’t believe this will ever get through, it would be civil war
That would be
the shortest civil war
of all time.
Also your misapplication
of the word “evil”
and characterization
of an army protecting
those who are (maybe) learning
as “immoral”
discredits your entire statement
and makes you look
like an idiot.
sorry 🙁
A Letter from Rav Chaim Kanievsky
The news I heard that a law is being passed to harm the very core of the souls of Klal Yisroel and to contaminate the cruse of pure oil, i.e., the sacred yeshiva and kollel students, shook me up and made me quake.
Beware for your souls and for your existence. Know for certain that the Jewish people’s right to exist lies in the merit of those devoted bnei Torah whose whole world is bound by the four cubits of halochoh. This is basic; it has been fundamentally clear to every Jew that ever since our emerging into nationhood: tampering with the purity of our sacred Torah scholars and introducing foreign thoughts into their minds is perilous.
Whoever has the power to protest, to inflame others and to encourage the bnei Torah is obligated to do so and surely not to act contrary, chas vesholom, since our very souls depend on it.
Written with deep pain, and anticipation of the imminent geula shleima,
Chaim Kanievsky
Ohr Chodesh, Choppy, maybe others — taking shamayim by storm, going to prison in the hundreds of thousands, civil war …. Is there something about this situation that reduces people to incoherent babblers? Rabbanim were of many minds about whether the Holocaust was a sha’at shemad. Kal va-homer nothing happening today deserves this kind of rhetoric. Believe it or not, there were times when Am Yisrael didn’t have 60,000 full-time learners, and the world spun on its axis anyway.
when
gedolim
say one thing
and you fool
says another
you look like
an absolute
retard.
Toi, you have not yet answered my question about Rav Kook and Rav Y.B. Soloveichik who knew kol ha’Torah kulah!
whoa, chill, i didnt even read it. maybe ill have time soon.
With all due respect to the gedolim that are against the draft, are there no gedolim that are in support of it?
And is it also possible that they will not be sending the bnei yeshiva to the front lines, but only asking them to do the training, and help out as support staff?
My guess is yes to both questions. But like most takers, the very thought of being asked to help out sends them screaming “shmadd!” so the status quo rolls on.
And we wonder why the chilonim think of us the way they do.
With all due respect to the gedolim that are against the draft, are there no gedolim that are in support of it?
If there are any that support it, their adherents can enlist. But they cannot force non-adherents of theirs, whose Gedolim forbid enlistment (as being a ??? ???), to enlist.
bpt -“With all due respect to the gedolim that are against the draft, are there no gedolim that are in support of it?”
Almost all are against. So the Halacha is after the Rov.
“And we wonder why the chilonim think of us the way they do.”
Yes, we should care what the Chilonim think, just not when their beliefs contradict our Torah.
Repeat after me:
This is NOT sha’as sh’mad
This is NOT sha’as sh’mad
This is NOT sha’as sh’mad
This is NOT sha’as sh’mad
This is NOT sha’as sh’mad
Calm down
Calm down
Calm down
Calm down
haskalajew vs. Gedolim.
choppy- health and all others “leminehem”: Have you ever considered the case of the dog that did not bark? or- for your ears- the deafening silence of any chassidische rebbe in this matter?? I have yet to see one word from one chasidsiche rebbe- and the reason is simple- they understand that there has to be some compromise here- because you cannot have a whole tsibbur that does not work. Thank g-d, the chassdim work and thrive, the others become parasites.
repeat after me
when R chaim kanievsky and R aharon leib shteinman shlita tell us, the common folk, whats going on, they just might have a better idea then you. honestly, if you really want to follow your heart on an issue you please, stop making excuses and just say so. at least then you wont need to blame it on your “torah hashkafa”.
The Chasidishe Gedolim (Rebbes) are equally opposed to the draft as the Litvish Gedilim are.
Taking a quick look at recent YWN stories, the following Rebbes are protesting the draft:
Belzer Rebbe Shlita, Satmar Rebbe Shlita, Ravaad HaGaon HaRav Moshe Sternbuch Shlita, HaGaon HaRav Shmuel Halevy Wosner Shlita, Chernobyl Rebbe Shlita, Rachmistrivka Rebbe Shlita. And many others.
Here is one recent story (there are many more):
It is sha’as sh’mad.
Charadim entering the draft will mean the end the Charaidi religion. Those who practice that religion agree that the religion must be saved at all costs.
Why is this even a question?
As an explanation, the draft will break open the “chareidi museum” implemented by the previous generation’s Gedolim. The Charaidim want to be in a Ghetto, as that is the only way that they can practice their religion of not allowing outside influences into their lives.
Chareidim do not follow any specific teachings of any specific Rebbi, nor do they believe in any specific values not already in the Torah. Chasidim follow the specific teachings of the Baal Shem Tov and his disciples; Telzers follow the teachings and Minhagim of the Telzer Yeshiva; the Mussar movement was started by Rav Yisroel Salanter – but “Chareidi”? There was no beginning to “Chareidism” except on Har Sinai; no particular person whose teachings they follow except Moshe Rabbeinu, and no particular Minhagim they perform.
So there really is no such thing as a “Chareidi.” Those who people refer to as “Chareidim” have mostly never referred to themselves as such – in America you can go to Yeshiva from Kindergarten through Kollel and you will most probably never hear “we are Chareidi,” and you may even never hear the term used at all.
I do not use the term “Chareidi” because by giving generic, default Judaism a label it conceals the fact that this Judaism is in fact the generic and default.
To quote the Israeli Mishpacha Magazine
“Without the haredi lifestyle, conservative and stubborn, the Jewish people has no future, and without the jewish people, there is no need for a Jewish state. Continuing this lifestyles is dependent upon spiritual independence, and we are therefore drafted into this ancient army from the age of being an infant, with the generals being the gedolim. We are constantly tested, we constantly deal with the challenges and seductions presented by the modern world, but we withstand and do not get drawn in, we protect our kids at any price from the fire of dangerous permissiveness. While we are drafted and committed to this life of Torah and Yirat Shamayim, we are unable to accept any demands or a draft of any other kind, even if it makes us look unreasonable.”
That is the religion.
(I know, some people will say it is not Yiddishkeit. They may even be right. But so what? THE CHARAIDIM THINK they are right. That makes it Shmad.)
GAW -“Those who practice that religion agree that the religion must be saved at all costs.”
You remind me of the Baal Hagada with your “Those”. Lochem V’lo Lo. And the Baal Hagada says since you took yourself out of the Klal – you are a Kofer B’Ikkar!
GAW- do you really wanna duke it out with R chaim kanievsky? Edited
Our brillian Gedolim are meant to help us not dictate to us, can you not tell the difference???? Jews have a direct line to Hashem, what is with the intermediaries?
Have all those years in Catholic Eastern Europe seen our revered rabbonim turn into living saints for some.
Brony
Member
That would be
the shortest civil war
of all time.
I’m sure that’s exectly what all the bloggers said about Matisyahu and his sons some 2200 years ago too!
I am certain this is shaas shmad.
Shaas shmad is not defined by how many mitzvos they are attempting to stop us from doing, but from their motivation. Their motivation is to break down chareidi society–not only because they don’t want to pay for it, but also because they don’t want people to be frum. They do not hide this purpose.
(and whoever mentioned the holocaust: No comparison, it goes by the purpose.)
PBA: Is it that they don’t want people to be Frum or that they don’t want Chareidi society to exist as it is (I’m sure different MKs have different goals)? Might that make a difference? The exact wording of whatever new law comes through will tell us a lot about the government’s intent, I think.
Sam: certainly different MK’s have different intentions.
Still, it is quite clear that the majority of chilonim don’t want people to be frum at all. They say that outright. And it is obvious that this is a step in that plan.
You don’t see it as that, because your community draws religious value from serving, and I wouldn’t be surprised if people from the chardal community come out of the army more religious.
But, chareidim are certainly not going to see it as that, and it is quite certain to have a negative effect, and that is certainly part of the goal.
Sam2 – I don’t think that is relevant. PBA is right anyway, it is a moral call on frum Jews and the message is, conform to the way we are.
Do they really want the Chareidim to take over the army too?
PBA: My community? I don’t quite have a community, but thank you, I think. Hopefully whatever new law they pass will not coerce the Chareidi community into doing anything they don’t want to do. If people are actually capable and learning all day it would be a shame to take them away from that. And I don’t think the average Chiloni cares if the Chareidi is Frum or not. They just care that they not throw rocks and stuff at them. Hopefully whatever new law is passed keeps the Toraso Um’naso P’tur but incentivizes doing some sort of community service for some period of time (Mada, Zaka, etc.).
I’m sorry you don’t feel part of a community. I would have pegged you as part of the RWMO American community, which feels kinship to chardal. You should feel part of it.
As far as chilonim, I don’t know who you are trying to fool.
PBA: I know far too few Israeli Chilonim to get an accurate impression, but that’s the one I have so far.
“As far as chilonim, I don’t know who you are trying to fool.” A lot of chilonim have a live and let live attitude, it is the looney left that makes most of the issues
GAW- do you really wanna duke it out with R chaim kanievsky?
Of course not. I think Rav Chaim (obviously) is right. The draft will end Charadi life as we know it.
However, for other strains of Yiddishkeit (such as Chardal, etc.) which keep Torah U’Mitzvos just as much as Charaidim, the draft would not be Shaas Shmad.
The other “strains” are inauthentic break-offs of Judaism. They have nothing to do with Yiddishkeit, other than in name only (falsely claimed.)
Face it:
THe chareidim in EY are living off the efforts of the non-chareidim. Yeshayahu Leibowitz described this decades ago. As it is now in the Chareidi world, the only way to be authentically jewish is to study torah and live off the work of others. Is this what we really think Hashem wants from us?
As it is, in the chareidi world view, the only way the jewish community of EY can continue to exist is if there is a sure supply of chilonim to do the work the frum refuse to do. Do we really want a system that relies on the continuing existence of Jews who don’t follow the Torah, just so we can keep ourselves pure?
“But they cannot force non-adherents of theirs, whose Gedolim forbid enlistment”
Excellent point. And if the Charaidim want to opt out of serving their country, good for them. But they should go off grid totally and not use the public’s hospitals either.
Wanna be a taker? Be a giver as well. I’m not asking them to patrol Gaza. But anyone can help in the kitchen or stock a supply cabinet.
If there are so inclined.
Israeli Chareidi society as it presently exists will end anyway.Who will pay for it? There is no one left alive who worked, the financial crisis is drying out donations from the US and a more Libertarian economic outlok is lowering government benefits. Add to that the growth of the Chareidi population and a concominant rise in the number of young men who are not built for full-time learning and tired of poverty in the midst of prosperity and you get a metamorphosis into a Chardal or American Chareidi sector.
The other “strains” are inauthentic break-offs of Judaism. They have nothing to do with Yiddishkeit, other than in name only
Charedi Judaismsis also a “strain”. Chasidism stems from The Baal Shem Tov and his followers and the Litvish comes from The Vilna Gaon/ Chatam Sofer and their Disciples
The other “strains” are inauthentic break-offs of Judaism. They have nothing to do with Yiddishkeit, other than in name only (falsely claimed.)
That’s what they would say as well about you, who uses the internet. That is what they would say about Rav Reuven Feinstien, Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, and other American Gedolim who veer from their absolutes. After all, they Matter things like playing ball, working, and speaking Hebrew, which everyone in Eretz Yisroel knows is Assur (and Yehareg V’al Yaavor).
We at least consider them frum. We are only frum enough that they can take our money 🙁
I know that was mean, so I’ll choose to think that you are refering to Yidden who are not Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos, and are not “Mevakshei Hashem”.
Speaking of “Mevakshei Hashem”, I think one of the telling moments of the recent asifa is when the Lakewood Moshgiach had to apologize for speaking in English, because even those who don’t speak Yiddish can be “Mevakshei Hashem”. It opens a window into the mindset of certain groups of Yidden and what they feel about other Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos who are not like themselves.
All that being said, if you don’t think that we are Yeraim, then you and I have nothing to talk about. I’ll go join Wolfish in denegrating myself. According to you, I’m going deep anyway, but at least I will be in good company.
I’m going to add to my original point. Israeli Charaidim are completely unprepared for any outside experiences, that the Gedolim may be (rightfully) afraid that there will be mass off the derech movements if there is exposure to something other than the Charaidi lifestyle. This does not apply to other derachim of Yiddishkeit (such as American Yeshivish or Israeli Chardal), where there is some measure of exposure and understanding of the outside world.
There you go, my nevuah was right, anyone want to know tomorrow’s lottery winning tickets?
The other “strains” are inauthentic break-offs of Judaism. They have nothing to do with Yiddishkeit, other than in name only (falsely claimed.)
Ah, the “chareidi Judaism is the only Judaism” claim.
Your idea of shivim panim laTorah is like Henry Ford’s idea of consumer choice of color for the model-T.
The Wolf
or Microsoft’s idea of choice of operating system
Shlishi: Not that you ever will, but I highly advise that you read R’ Slifkin’s piece on the founding of Chareidi-ism (his term). It’s interesting and while I don’t believe with everything, there is a lot of Emes in there. It’s worth reading if you actually want to be honest with yourself.
That is the guy who wrote works of apikorus, according to the gedolim. Of course I wouldn’t read him. His untruths (as you even partially conceded) aren’t worth the time of the day, even if they weren’t heretical.
Shlishi: He still has Haskamos from R’ Shmuel Kamenetzky. The Gedolim who put one (maybe two) of his books in Cherem (I won’t say who) never even saw what he says in them because they don’t speak English. He was never given a chance to discuss or explain what he wrote. For all we know, the Gedolim who put him in Cherem were entirely lied to about what he published or were told something vague like “He says Chazal is wrong”, which isn’t what he says at all. And just because I disagree with something doesn’t make it an “untruth”, unless you respect my opinion that much. 🙂
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