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TheChevra wrote:
“I’ve just been told, on good word, that Georgie Wigs has commented on this incident as follows:
1. The employee who answered the phone call when The People’s Court called, did not advise or identify to the caller that any particular wig or label number was not purchased from Georgie Wigs. This is in contradiction to the statement made by the arbiter on the show, that was used as the basis for the dismissal.
2. After looking at the damaged wig in question, have determined this is the Georgie Wig that the $3,000 receipt represented. (This physical inspection occurred after the arbiter dismissed the case.)
This ought to put to final lie this incident as fodder for the usual anti-semites. No doubt they will ignore this, even if indisputably disproved, and will be sure to fabricate other “incidents” to attack Frum Yidden.
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I heard it from a spouse of an employee. But since you asked, I called Georgie Wigs directly at their listed number and they’ve told me directly. In a nutshell Georgie said that Ms. Milian from the People’s Court has lied on the show. The ruined wig was a $3,000 Georgie wig. Feel free to call them yourself.”
Has anyone else independently verified this? On one hand I think it’s important, OTOH I think it would be a bad idea for CR members to flood Georgie’s with phone calls when they are trying to run a business.
Aishes,
I remember learning it in the context that (e.g.,) if someone seriously aggrieved a woman, she can unload her burden to her husband. From this, I get the sense that the talking out of the problems should be done in a private setting with a confidant, rather than in public.
That said, without the video, I could see a toeles in discussing the problems caused by the TV appearance, including the chillul Hashem and embarrassment caused to other Jews, but I don’t think anyone new should know who specifically the story was about, and cause further ruin to their lives. At this point, nobody here personally knows this family, but already there has been one post to the effect of, “my brother-in-law knows who they are!” and it’s only a matter of time before word spreads from this forum into their real life world.
Turkeyneck,
I’m not sure that TV can be considered a 100% faithful representation of reality. A boring one-hour case can be edited down to a much more scandalous sounding (and ratings garnering) 24 minute bit. I was once interviewed for a newspaper story while in high school, and my words were taken considerably out of context to fit into a story already dreamed up by the reporter. None of my words were changed, but they were used to portray me as more nervous than I was to contrast me with another fellow who was very self-confident. No damage was done, but as a high schooler I felt quite embarrassed. I learned a valuable lesson to not rely so much on TV and newspapers as “truth”!
Chevrah -I actually believe you (probably one of the few). The problem here was, that the Judge had to make a quick decision, so bacically she did whatever she wanted. Next time go to a real Court and use a real lawyer. I actually don’t feel bad for them, considering I’ve gone to court and the Judges were very far from honest and truthful. “Kol Hadom Koizev”. We daven everyday for the restoration of true Judgement.
AishesChayil. I was not at the shiur you attended and can not say “you didn’t hear it”, but I find it very hard to believe that someone giving a shiur in shmiras halashon stated that if you are bothered by lashon hara you can spread it further (especially publicly) because it is therapeutic to get it off your chest.
Shaitel Wearer…
Yes, DO watch the clip.
The judge said NOTHING about numbers. She said she read to the people at Georgie’s what was on the tag.
Maybe it was a name, maybe a brand. She said NOTHING about a number. You said there’s no way she could know if it was a custom piece. Not so. IF the tag said, for example, Estee Lauder, or Revlon, or the name of some other inexpensive wig company or wig style, she COULD know it was not a custom (Georgie) shaitel.
I didnt say bothered by LH, I said bothered by the harm that someone caused you. In this case, being two frum people who misrepresent our (my) values.
Some people don’t seem to realize that dan l’kaf zechus does not mean giving the benefit of the doubt based on what each individual person thinks are the true facts behind the story. It means giving the benefit of the doubt regardless of whether you know the reasons or not. There can be so many facts to this story (and other stories) that we don’t know about, and maybe we’ll never know about, and if we would know them we would judge the people involved favorably. We have to believe that these people are innocent because of the mitzvah of dan l’kaf zechus and not because WE decided they are not guilty. Only Hashem is the true Judge.
I recognized the guy immediately.Whatever the truth is,the embarrassment they surely have now is punishment enough.
My personal thought was:
Maybe they are so financially desperate,they(unfortunately)did not think clearly before doing this whole thing.
Seeing believing. If I were the innocent couple, I would have acted like I was innocent. I would have immediately put an ad into the frum media and would certainly have written in the YW to clear my name. I would have provided the olam with all the proof needed to remove any doubt. Sometime a 10% lie will override the 90% truth.
I don’t want to comment on the couple any further I would just like to say that with everything and every other thread words are twisted, facts are twisted and people say what they want to say without proof, without logic and without any truth behind it. So all I would like to ask is that anyone who wishes to comment should please just watch the video again carefully to see for themselves what actually occurred. The judge said she “read the tickets off the wig to the person on the other end and they said it was not one of their wigs”. I am not going to say that Georgie lied because there is no reason for her to do so and she is a great person. I don’t know who the person was who answered the phone, but the Judge has no reason to lie either and if you watch the video again carefully the judge was appalled that the laundress would be so foolish as to wash the wig IN THE WASHING MACHINE with DETERGENT so she was siding with the couple before she called the wig shop! That’s it. It is what it is and it was discussed to death. I am sure the couple regret having taken their private business public and I am sure they would appreciate if we stop discussing it. The moderators have the option of allowing this discussion to continue or to end it here and now. Does it help anyone to continue it? Is there a lesson to be learned from this? Yes we have already discussed it? Can there be more harm done if this thread continues? Well probably because a lot has already been said. The couple have already been bashed. The judge has been called a liar and an anti-semite. Georgie has put out a statement. I believe everything that could have been said has been said. And as Eclipse has brilliantly said, the embarrassment has surely been punishment enough.
Tell us who it is.
It is not important who it is. Someone just pointed something out to me. I should have made it clear that I am only speaking about the video and not speaking about the entire incident which no one will ever know the complete truth about. Anyone who wishes to comment about the VIDEO should go back and view it before twisting the truth about what occurred ON THE VIDEO. On the video, the Judge clearly states that she read off the ticket numbers and info on the phone. And on the video it clearly indicates her dismay at what happened to the wig. What actually occurred in the courtroom is only known to those present in the courtroom.
As far as whether or not this thread should continue or be shut down, the comments I made regarding Georgie’s statement etc. I was referring to the comments made here on this thread only as I have no clue about any comments made elsewhere, nor do I care about any loshon horah being spoken about this issue. I still concur with Eclipse and feel that whatever was said here is quite enough to embarrass the couple and can’t even begin to imagine what kind of embarrassment they have been going through in the real world. So personally I would say that they have been through enough and it is time to close this down, it doesn’t really serve any purpose to keep it open other than to continue to hurt these people who must already realize by now that they have made some errors in judgment.
I was myself as a plaintiff in this court
and i can tell you it is a serious court, no games, and they have a strict drisa we gakira.
I believe the judge is lismoh
now i hapened to know the couple in question they did not tell me either yeah or neih if it was a fraud (their case ) however i am sorry to say having seen it togehter with my parents in europe (who dont know the couple ) we all have a problem being don adam be kaf zechus in this case.
but most important this show is not fake, and neither are the litigans
Interesting video, Rabbi V and I happen to know you too. BTW, I have seen two cases on the People’s court with frum people who I personally know. Trust me, the cases are real.
rabbi v,
I looked at you case video and its quite interesting. Nevertheless, you lucked out with an opponent that acted like the biggest imbecile, literally begging her to let you win.
In this case of the shaitel there are so many loose ends the judge didn’t cover. She may be even worse than Judge Linda Reade who railroaded Shalom Rubashkin. We now even have the store confirming it was their wig. What more proof do we need the judge railroaded the frum couple for a couple of extra rating points? That’s what its all about. It was a good show, but bad justice. I’m sure Hollywood liked it. But not Lady Justice.
I won’t go so far as to say Milian is a raging anti-semite. (But I wouldn’t rule it out either.) Nevertheless, her pursuit of theater in a mock courtroom is no substitute for true justice.
Whoa, Rabbi V, that guy is a nutcase.
I hope you didn’t hear from Mr. BP Esq after that day!!
Those suggesting that if Milian could have been sued if she lied, are sadly wrong. Idris Kabia sued his son, Ahmed Kabia, for $2,000 for alleged failure to return property. The television program “The People’s Court” offered the parties the chance to resolve the dispute before “judge” Ed Koch, former Mayor of New York, who presided over the program. Parties sign an arbitration agreement when they appear on the program. During the program, Koch referred to Idris Kabia as a kidnapper. Kabia then sued Koch for defamation. Koch moved for summary judgment. Summary judgment was granted to Koch. Submission of the case to the television court qualified as arbitration. The parties had agreed to appear on national television. As an arbitrator, under the doctrine of arbitral immunity, Koch was entitled to absolute arbitral immunity for all acts performed; this includes immunity from a defamation action for statements he made about Kabia; even if the claim is slander per se. Further, the arbitration association is similarly immune from liability for the actions of arbitrators who enjoy judicial immunity from civil liability. So Milian could act as idiotic and unfair as she wished to the frum people, without fair of being sued.
If you read the fine print that comes up after the show, they basically agree not to sue each other and in return they both get paid the same. The people get paid for being on the show the same amount. The Judge’s monetary “judgement” is settled by the producers. Details about who pays judgments on “The People’s Court” were made public in the real-life court case of Kabia v. Koch. In Kabia, the court noted that “The People’s Court” requires litigants to sign arbitration papers before appearing on an episode. The documents require “The People’s Court,” not the defendant, to pay any judgment rendered.
I am amused by the comments making out Milian as being some beacon of truth. I am even more amused by the comments judging the frum couple based on their facial reactions on the show. It is also amusing how some comments are judging the frum couple for not making comments on the show strongly reacting to Milian’s decision. They signed an agreement with the show beforehand that they will not react in any negative way or make any negative comments against Milian’s decision. This show is scripted to a very large extent. While all that is amusing, what is not amusing is how some are judging their fellow Jew negatively based on scarce information that television produces found fit to air. Who even knows what the editor chose to “cut” out of the final edit, that presented additional facts supporting the plaintiff’s.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. As far as Judge Milian’s credentials are concerned you can find them on the webpage for the show. She is in fact a Judge and she served on the bench in Miami. I can’t comment on former Mayor Ed Koch who might have been hired for his political view points and entertainment value. Anything you want to know about the show can be found on the web page.
I imagine that Rabbi V can answer some questions as well, since he has a personal experience with the show.
Regardless of who is right in this case none of us are supposed to be on these types of shows with a Yarmulke and we should know that even though we live in a free country we are still in Galus and evrything that we do can become a Chilul Hashem.
There is no way a frum couple would go on public TV before 10 million viewers and risk lying. Besides for that, I believe them because they are frum people and doubt they’d lie in general, as they are Honest Yidden.
However, they took a risk at making a chillul hashem in going to court before TV, before the public. THey had no idea how crazy or batty this judge was, but took the risk she’d do something crazy and that was their mistake in judgment. She made them look very bad, and they had no way to defend themselves from her.
However, I believe they can sue her or at least appeal the case.
however, I just feel so bad for them.
Trying my best, actually, real amusement is you quoting Rivera. Even if he were correct (more about that in a moment), his opinion is binding on no one since it is not an appellate decision. (Do I need to explain this?)
It’s true that The People’s Court is not itself authorized to administer oaths. One wonders, however, if they do not take the precaution of having a notary public administer them just as is done in every single other arbitration. Accordingly, Rivera’s decision says nothing applicable here.
Your suggestion that if nothing could be done against Ms. Milian “if she lied” means that she is a liar, is outrageous. For your information, every single sitting judge in the United States enjoys judicial immunity which extends to things a lot worse than lying.
Shame on you.
Homeowner – It’s about time we start voting out the anti-semitic judges, who always find the frum Jew wrong. They did it in Iowa with the pro-gay judges; let’s do it here. We also have to get rid of federal judges without the congress involvement. We have to lobby our gov. to change the law. Too many judges don’t practice justice and they get away with it. I personally think a lot couldn’t care less, as long as they don’t look that bad and they clean their docket list!
Not so. They do administer an oath before the show starts (you can sometimes see the bailiff doing this with the parties in court while Harvey Levin is talking about the case. The statements made on the show ARE legally binding. Soemtimes she will dismiss a case without prejudice, so it can be brought to suit again, when she feels (As in this case) there was no good evidence presented in an otherwise open and shut situation (where the cleaners should have known better, as professional cleaners, than to put a wig in a washing machine with detergent), but which has no proof as to the value of the loss incurred by the plaintiff.
Homeowner: Its on the video. The actor playing “Bailiff” administers the oath at the beginning of the show.
Anyways, I’d prefer a real Judge, like Brooklyn Judge Francois A. Rivera, defining the non-existent authorities of this People’s TV Court (as Judge Rivera says “The statements made on the show have no more probative force than the words of an actor reading from a script in a play”) than an anonymous BP homeowner esq.
As far as Milian lying, based on the evidence from the store (that sold the wig) described earlier in this thread, I think the evidence doesn’t look good for the show.
Rabbi V, thank you for posting the link to Part I of your appearance on The People’s Court. I watched it along with Part II,
In light of the criticism in some other messages, would you please tell everyone here if you feel that Ms. Milian treated you fairly. Also, did you detect even a hint of discrimination against you?
Please note that while Milian as well as Harvey Levin used the phrase “bar complaint,” that is a term from other states. Here in New York, it is the court system that is in charge of attorney discipline.
If you wish to make a complaint about an attorney, and I cannot say whether or not you should or if your complaint has merit, here are the official instructions from the Grievance Committee:
http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/ad2/attorneymatters_ComplaintAboutaLawyer.shtml
Grievance Committee for the Second, Eleventh, and Thirteenth Judicial Districts
Renaissance Plaza
335 Adams Street, Suite 2400
Brooklyn, NY 11201-3745
(718) 923-6300
rabbi V,
where can I see the link to your day in court?
I spent several nightmarish years in the judicial system(not by choice).There are personal agendas,off- the- record conferences,financial incentives(otherwise known as “shochad”),political connections,etc.etc.
While ONLY HASHEM KNOWS THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR CASE,no one should ever assume that anything is necesssarily what it appears to be in the court system.
Incorrect, we have not seen nor heard of any evidence from Georgie Wigs confirming that it was their wig.
Rabbi V kol hakavod you did a great job, looks like you had a hard life till now , Hashem should bench you from now on you should only know good things and have kol tuv
A freilachen Chanukah
this story is about to get national attention.
the media is hiding near their house.
they better have some good answers for the cameras.
and tell mrs blondie to put some cloths on, not like when she pranced out onto national tv dressed like a you-know-what, with her husband sporting a beard and yarmulka.
what a disgrace. why isnt anyone talking about that part of this? did it not bother anyone else?
disgusting.
cherrybim, someone called Georgie and spoke to them and was told it was from them. Why would you believe that Yid who spoke to them directly, over a shiksa on the show out to make ratings?
“There is no way a frum couple would go on public TV before 10 million viewers and risk lying. Besides for that, I believe them because they are frum people and doubt they’d lie in general, as they are Honest Yidden.”
First of all, don’t be so naive – frum people, like any other people, sadly lie all the time. It is a sad fact we have to face. I don’t think they were substantially lying in this case – I think the cleaners ruined her wig, through stupidity and negligence, or accidentally (maybe they first noticed the wig AFTER it went into the wash – who knows), but I also think they were not smart to come to a TV show unprepared with proper evidence. I have no doubt that even her short wig might have been very pricey. I cannot afford to buy these wigs,because they are so expensive, and the one she wore to the show was clearly a good one, so why would she pay anything less for the other one that was ruined? She should have kept her receipt (but how many people keep such meticulous records for a wig?). The only issue that really bothereed me was the Judge is not knowledgeable about wigs (by her own admission)and Wendy Williams, the black TV host who actually wears wigs all the time on TV, wears stuff that looks absolutely horrific, so I would never ask her opinion about this subject. Clearly Judge Milian needed to speak to a Jewish wigmaker AT LENGTH, regarding the damage that can occur to a human hair wig, which once it is cut off the head DOES NOT continue to respond like human hair in all cases. It cannot grow back when damaged, or repair itself. It does get matted, frizz up, break off, and become damaged, whether on or off the head, if abused. This wig was abused. And that is the only thing that should have mattered to the judge, which is why she dismissed the case w/o prejudice, so the couple could sue again, when they have the proper proof.
this story is about to get national attention.
No it’s not. Please. You think that if they lied on TPC that they’re the first? The only reason it’s big news with us is because it’s one of us. The rest of the world forgot about it by the time the next episode aired.
the media is hiding near their house.
Yeah, right.
they better have some good answers for the cameras.
No, they need to have good answers for the people in their community.
and tell mrs blondie to put some cloths on, not like when she pranced out onto national tv dressed like a you-know-what, with her husband sporting a beard and yarmulka.
She was dressed perfectly fine and in complete conformity with halacha. For heaven’s sake, you talk like she went on the show in a bikini. Get a grip.
what a disgrace. why isnt anyone talking about that part of this? did it not bother anyone else?
Because she was dressed perfectly fine.
The Wolf
A thought-
if the couple wanted to fool the judge into thinking this wig was more expensive than it was, wouldnt the couple have removed the label with the cheap brand name first???
Wolf, you’re wrong…we are hearing this might get some media attention….
Let’s hope not.
The best and only response to any media inquries is that Mrs. Milian was wrong and NO further comment.
Wolf, your wrong…we are hearing this might get some media attention….
Granted that I could be wrong. Let’s hope I’m not.
The Wolf
Hey, The Rov — welcome back. 🙂
The Wolf
WolfishMusings, his other names were blocked last night, so he’s using this one now.
The Rov,
Re- Ms Millian,
the only thing she was wrong about was not making the laundress responsible for damaging the wig regardless of whether washing it was autherized or not.
Once they took it upon themselves to toss it in the machine, they were responsible for the outcome.
Even if she believed that it WAS a cheap wig, there was still a value on it, and it should have been considered . She could have awarded them whatever she thought it was worth, and scolded them for their alleged scam at the same time. But to deprive them of the minimum just because she was ticked at their behaviour was not very professional.
The concept of the show show itself was the ratings. they didnt need to manufature an outcome for ratings, that show does extremely well.
They get paid $250 for losing $500 for winning.
its binding arbitration not an actual court. binding arbitration lehavdil gives bais din their authority.
Lets give Judge Milian the respect she deserves because she is indeed a Judge so lets address her properly whether you agree with her decision or not. Oomis, she found in favor of the defendant, she did not dismiss it without prejudice.
It is a chilul Hashem because as the Editor said, it might get more media attention and might not die here. We all have our own opinions here. I personally have watched this show on many occasions and I do have an idea of how fair this judge is and how she works. I do feel she did her job and did it fairly like she normally does. There is no difference in the way she handled this case from the way she handles any other case, and it is sad that Yidden keep pulling the anti-semite card. Yidden are not automatically right just because we are Yidden. If the defendant were other Jews, you would sing a different tune. You are all choosing to call the Judge a liar as well as the defendants only because the plaintiffs appear to be “ehrlich” yidden and that is biased.
WolfishMusings, his other names were blocked last night, so he’s using this one now.
I know. That was the point. 🙂
The Wolf
AC, you have a very good point there. But since she felt that the plaintiffs tried to scam the defendants and tried to trick the court which was not only insulting but was probably perjury, she probably felt the best thing to do was not reward them anything since they would be getting compensation for being on the show regardless.
Wolf, you’re probably wrong – and unbelievably naive.
A thought just occured to me;
Had she come in with a hat or a scarf , which might have backed up her claim that her ‘one’ good sheitel was in ruins , whether true or not, the Chillul Hashem would have been so much less.
The judge would have known this’mop’ to be the ‘one and only’ and would have no reason to call up Georgie.
AC, this is true. Also, I was wondering how many women who are married for 10 years own only 1 wig and 1 fall? That didn’t ring true with me either. It just didn’t make sense to me.
A good rule of thumb.
before you post anything, make believe it was YOUR brother and sister in that courtroom.
At the end of the day THEY ARE your brother and sister.
Wolf, you’re probably wrong
Granted, it’s possible
– and unbelievably naive.
Oh, come on. If you’re going to try to insult me, you have to do better. I can give myself better insults in my sleep.* 🙂
The Wolf
(* I’m just fooling around with you… I know you didn’t really mean to insult.)
FWIW, I’ve been married 13+ years and have one wig and 2 falls, but rarely wear any of them because they give me headaches.
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