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Should learning family’s children not mix with working family’s children in yeshiva. Should there be 2 different yeshiva’s? I hear this is the new shtick. What do you think?
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I think you’re a troll.
Yes. In fact, I think that every possible gradation should have it’s own schools. After all, I don’t want my kids hanging out with those that are only 99.9999% as frum as I and those that are 100.00001% more frum than me don’t want their kids hanging out with mine.
The end result should be that each kid has his own yeshiva. This way, no kid has to interact with any other kid from a differing hashkafah, lifestyle or taste in living room decor.
The Wolf
I agree with Wolf, but it’s just not financially feasible.
(to answer the question “What is a troll”.)
Since you are fishing for opinions, here are some.
1. The notion of discriminating against children from certain families is ridiculous. We all know of boys from “simple” families that progressed to becoming true bnei Torah, talmidei chachomim, and stars in their communities. We also know of those boys who come from star studded families who are, well, ordinary, and certainly not remarkables.
2. The idea, which exists in some communities, is plainly stupid. These kollel families are generally unable to pay the exorbitant tuitions required to keep up a yeshiva. The option of making this venture into one that the public will fund through tzedokoh is foolish, as there is a shortage of such funds today, and many baalei batim (I know many) would categorically refuse to sponsor or subsidize such a project.
3. It is high time that the chinuch world stop deluding itself that it can be consistent with Torah values while rationing Torah education, and that it can morally use exclusionary criteria for its admission policies. Yes, in the free enterprise system one may do whatever he wants. But how about Torah morality as the yardstick?
Wolf – I am curious. Would you please tell us what yardstick you would agree to ? Not your preference, and not practical examples. Just a theoretical line of observance/type beyond which one should not mix their kids with, or not have to be concerned with insulting those excluded.
Wolf – I am curious. Would you please tell us what yardstick you would agree to ?
My apologies. I forgot to include the [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags in my previous post.
The Wolf
Wolf, I, too, would like to know if your sarcasm was at the entire idea, or at the extent to which some people take it.
Wolf – I got your post. My point was – obviously you also think there should some sort of a policy. And undoubtedly others would be offended by it. So what are your thoughts, which would explain why to draw the line where you do at while mocking others.
In other words, Wolf, I, too, would like to know ….
Wolf?
Let sleeping wolves lie
Achdus creates strength. Discrimination on any grounds creates dispute.
profound
RABBAIM, even if they’ll be a bad influence?
There is an interesting video of Rav Shteinman who says that rejecting kids who are “not the right type” is not Yiras Shamayim, but it’s Gayva.
Yes, I saw that video. We do not know who he wad referring to, i.e. how far to take it.
DaasYochid, if there is such a video, assume that it refers to every scenario unless an Adam Gadol says otherwise. The acceptance situation has gotten to be extremely out of hand. Today’s society has many pros but school attitudes (which come from parents not rabbanim with da’as torah) are not one of them. The fallout from not getting accepted has tremendous negative long-term ramifications.
The video is a few rabanim asking about accepting a family to the school. Rav shteinman does say how far to take it. The rabanim say that these boys will influence the other boys and the rav responds that kids are going to go off with or without the influence. Everyone should watch the video. Look up rav shteinman and chinuch
A friend of mine in Bne brak had a problem with a certain cheder which wouldnt take his child because he was working. HaRav Shteinman got personally involved and said he would close the cheder down if they didn’t accept people from working families. He did say it was gaava causing this. He has tirelessly campaigned that chadorim do not discriminate against working people, just as he has that they take in sefardim.
On a separate point, who finances those places if not working people??
It would be an interesting sociological study, and the obvious best specimen would be EY grade school. There is the tribal identity theme, such as if you shovel sewage for a living, they will reject you for not doing so with a black hat, not for the nature of your work. Or you can be rejected for working at all. Then there is the fear of gashmius. I you are G-d forbid a foreigner, and you own sort an upscale dwelling, out you go. There was an infamous case of a Jerusalem BY that separated the children of Anglophone olim into closed class. This is a huge slap in the face to these people who feel no conflict between money and frumkeit, as most can manage the gashmius quite well. And there is also a parallel midos-sphere where the true currency is not money, (because there is none) but rather raw power.
I’m being misunderstood. I know he is against discriminating against working people; so am I, long before I saw that video. Again, I am asking how far this goes, playing off of Wolf’s assertion that if we take this to its logical conclusion, every child will have his own yeshivah.
Instead, should every type of family within the frum spectrum, from those who send to coed institutions to Satmar and Bais Hatalmud, from Mizrachi to Toldos Aharon, have the same school system?
Must I expose my children to children who are given unfettered access to secular media sources? To assume that R’ Aharon Leib meant all of this is absurd; he was referring to the educational system within the chareidi world, the values of whose families are much more closely aligned than that.
To assume that R’ Aharon Leib meant all of this is absurd; he was referring to the educational system within the chareidi world, the values of whose families are much more closely aligned than that.
I’m glad that you have come around and seen the truth.
When a Gadol Paskens (unless it is a S”HUT Sefer where he brings the reasoning), it is only meant for the specific individual that asks. Just becuse Rav Shteinman said something in one specific case for one specific school (and probably one specific child) doesn’t mean it can be applied anywhere else.
The same is true for all questions asked to “Gedolim”.
I do think that schools catering to a more kollel type of family has every right to be choosy and I think they should not let in boys from homes that don’t adhere to the hashkafos of the yeshivah. Most boys that got into trouble over the years came from making bad friends and these friends are boys that watch movies in their house and surf the net without filters. Ghe bad influences in every class come from more modern liberal chinuch homes and thats a fact. I think schools have every right to be picky about these issues. However its wrong to discriminate against kids based upon their intelligence. That’s a whole other discussion though.
Working parents don’t want their kids influenced into thinking that they (the parents) are completely into gashmius and are Torah illiterate while the Klei Kodesh parents don’t want their kids influenced into thinking that they are useless bench-kvetchers. WE MUST KEEP THE BLINDERS ON!!!
😉
Seriously, as long as we all respect each other, we stand to gain from mixing these groups.
TL;DR is no excuse here
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I’m glad that you have come around and seen the truth.
I’m not sure what makes you think that this is a change of heart on my part.
There already exists one major elementary school which is exclusive for kollel yungerlites children. Even if you have a job as a Rebbi it is difficult to have your children accepted. It can only exist because there is a very well to do family which sponsors it.
This is obviously a lot more utopian than practical, as it probably wouldn’t work, but if we have a few schools across different sectors, people should be able to go to whichever they’d like, as most schools are, believe it or not, self-selecting. Sure, some people who “aren’t as frum” might want to go to the “more frum” school because it’s “better” or something, but if they really think so, it means that they have a respect for the frumness of the school and want to be like that. A kid who wears jeans wouldn’t want to go to Bais Yaakov unless she was okay with changing herself to fit the Bais Yaakov, because there are other schools which wouldn’t care if she wore jeans. There must be a reason why she chose Bais Yaakov. It works the same way the other way around- if a “frummer” family wants to go to a “less frum” (by the way, I use quotes around subjective terms) school for another reason, such as academics or some specific thing the other school has that the Bais Yaakov doesn’t, then they can’t expect the student body to be any specific way to suit them because they chose the school. But in both cases, there’s no reason why they shouldn’t be accepted, as they both WANT to be there.
If this doesn’t make sense, it’s because I’ve right now got a 101 fever…
As an intelligent person who has many intelligent friends, I would not want my children to go to a school where intelligence is frowned upon; nor to associate with children of the type of families that promote that (joking about the associating part). I was in such a school only for high school and it took me years to recover. Unfortunately, many schools in the NY/NJ area seem to be that way these days.
There are two issues here – whether inclusion is a good thing, and how to address the situation if it’s not. If I had the time, (and I still dream I will some day) I would like to start a school for families that are ultra-frum but do not wish to promote mediocrity in every area other than learning.
GAW:
There is a serious problem with your statement. You seem to assume that Rav Shteinman’s statement was specific to that situation, but that the exclusionary policies are otherwise acceptable. My reaction: Chas veshalom. At the very least, the dinei nefashos of allowing a child to have no yeshiva (Chazon Ish – a general psak) must be posed to a Gadol beYisroel. If this will be done, it will become recognized that the blanket, default psak is that no talmid should ever be left yeshivaless. It will be seen that the rare exception is to refuse a talmid admission in yeshiva. Furthermore, if you view the video carefully, Rav Shteinman makes his statement as a general issue, not a specific psak. Unfortunately, the menahel that posed this question to Rav Shteinman is a yochid. Most menahalim make their decisions without any effort to seek the guidance of anyone else. Their decisions to expel talmidim are also made the same way, without any consultation. I dare you or anyone else to query the average dayan or beis din to assess how many shailos are asked about “little things” versus questions about chinuch. The answers will shock many.
Gedolei Yisroel have spoken out about chinuch, the non-Torahdik policies related to admissions and expulsions, the logicless restrictions in rules and bizarre patterns of “discipline”. Trouble is that their voices are going unheard.
It is commonplace to have Gedolei Yisroel write letters to force admissions for both bochurim and girls to be accepted in yeshivos. Why must Gedolim be busy with matters that should be normal? This picture is frightening, and there is no place to intervene. Each yeshiva may even agree that this issue is problematic, but prefers waiting for other yeshivos to take their heads out of the ground first. This issue is complex, and nothing great will bring about change quickly. But for the sake of continuity of Torah, it better.
I’m not sure what makes you think that this is a change of heart on my part.
It seemed to me like you were dancing around the point, but fair enough. So you agree with me?
There is a serious problem with your statement. You seem to assume that Rav Shteinman’s statement was specific to that situation, but that the exclusionary policies are otherwise acceptable. My reaction: Chas veshalom. At the very least, the dinei nefashos of allowing a child to have no yeshiva (Chazon Ish – a general psak) must be posed to a Gadol beYisroel.
Nope. I’m just saying that the P’sak given only applied in that very specific case, and I have no idea what the P’sak would be in other cases. As we agree, an individual question must be asked for each student and each yeshiva, with the Rav that is asked having intimate knowledge of exactly what the situation is, both for the school and the child in question.
Nimnu v’gamru: The gedolim instituted this system of chinuch from the ground up, except the parts that we don’t like, in which people who run schools refuse to listen to the gedolim.
“I hear this is the new shtick. What do you think?”
Where did you hear this? Give me the name of so much as one yeshiva.
People are inherently driven to exclude others in whatever group they form. It starts in kindergarten with clubs and doesn’t stop post-adulthood but I have never heard of that one before. What a silly idea.
So you agree with me?
I don’t think I do 100%. I think that a psak can be evaluated in context and applied to other similar cases (by someone qualified to do so).
My opinion of that video specifically (as I recall it from a while ago) is that he felt that a lot of the exclusionary practices were based on gaavah, not chinuch, but that he wasn’t ruling out the idea of legitimate chinuch based exclusion.
I personally don’t think working families and kollel famlies can’t share the same chinuch institutions; they frequently share the same goals and ideals.
I also agree with the little I know (the poster) that the availability of other schools is a very important consideration.
I will point out, since he brought up the Chazon Ish, that a story has been printed about when there was a yishuv in which chareidim moving in wished to open their own gan, because they didn’t like the hashkafos of the ganenes, but the existing settlers waned the newcomers to join the existing one. The Chazon Ish advised that they offer to join, on condition tat pictures of zionist leaders be replaced by pictures of gedolim. She refused, and a new gan was started.
Of course, to be fair, there’s a difference between the influence of a teacher and that of fellow students, but I think there’s still something to be learned.
Okay, now, my personal agenda in this, as a parent: shouldn’t I insist that my sons not be in a class where a number of classmates are on their phones sharing shmutz with each other other IN SCHOOL? Is this not pikuach nefesh for my kids?
Even if the school were able to enforce their official no phone policy, am I not correct for not wanting to have my children surrounded by friends whose topic of discussion is total (and I mean by anyone here’s standards) shmutz? Is this what R’ Aron Leib was referring to as gaavah?
Yes, this type of behavior can come from the “best”, most “yeshivishe” homes, but that’s not been my personal experience, and in such a case, I would also want my kids separated. OTOH, I would have no problem with my kids becoming friends with kids from “less yeshivishe” homes with wholesome, frum values (according to my definition, of course 🙂 ).
We are supposed to be a mature nation. Don’t get me wrong, most frum Jews are.
Often though, when frum Jews do not have any exposure to the outside world they don’t see their own flaws and how similar they in-fact are to the very outside world they claim superiority to. It is only once you come in contact with the outside world are you able to see your own faults and become mature. I see so much geiva and if only I could tell these people “you are acting just like they are and you don’t even know it.”
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Okay, now, my personal agenda in this, as a parent: shouldn’t I insist that my sons not be in a class where a number of classmates are on their phones sharing shmutz with each other other IN SCHOOL? Is this not pikuach nefesh for my kids?
Aha! An agenda!!!
Too bad it is one that I agree with, so I can’t even argue. As we “10th Amendment” Americans sometimes say, vote with your feet, but don’t kick other children out where they will just become worse without asking a real Shailah.
Gavra, I don’t disagree, from the POV of the school, but what ‘m really advocating is non acceptance to pre-school. There are plenty of Orthodox schools which don’t have our crazy, kanousdik’e hakpados.
“other” kids don’t cause kids to go off the derech. parents, mechanchim, and rabbonim are the ones responsible.
Gavra, I don’t disagree, from the POV of the school, but what ‘m really advocating is non acceptance to pre-school.
Can’t do that. If the parent wants to give his/her child a fighting chance in this crazy world, who are we to tell them no? Especially if no other school will take them, you may as well send the child off to be a monk.
“other” kids don’t cause kids to go off the derech.
I’m going to have to disagree. Children who are exposed to things for which they are incapable of handling will be scarred, no matter who exposes them. And peer pressure is a tremendous force, both for good & evil.
“If I had the time, (and I still dream I will some day) I would like to start a school for families that are ultra-frum but do not wish to promote mediocrity in every area other than learning.”
Veltz, let me know when you are ready to get such a school started, I will help out any way I can. BTW I think that such a school was tried in Brooklyn, (I remember ads for it) but it never got off the ground.
“If I had the time, (and I still dream I will some day) I would like to start a school for families that are ultra-frum but do not wish to promote mediocrity in every area other than learning.”
Veltz, let me know when you are ready to get such a school started, I will help out any way I can. BTW I think that such a school was tried in Brooklyn, (I remember ads for it) but it never got off the ground.
I will send my kids there, but won’t support it. In fact, I won’t even pay tuition and I’ll set up a partnership blocker to shield my income from your tuition committee. I’ll just check the box on my sub. And set up a dutch sandwich.
If the non Kollel kids are children of Bnai Torah who are working, where is the bad influence?
“Even if the school were able to enforce their official no phone policy, am I not correct for not wanting to have my children surrounded by friends whose topic of discussion is total (and I mean by anyone here’s standards) shmutz? Is this what R’ Aron Leib was referring to as gaavah?”
Yes. He said that too. Watch it again.
Kids go off because they want to. They don’t go off because a kid in their class influenced them. A kid who isn’t looking to go off isn’t going to start because some kid in his class (even a friend) is rebellious. When a kid wants to go off they start looking for like-minded friends and they subsequently influence each other. You can blame the other kid when all the while it was your child’s choice.
I had a R”Y that once said that Chinuch is naturally a vertical process (i.e from a parent or authority figure to the child). While horizontal issues can exist, they’re almost always due to a lack in vertical guidance.
Gavra:Can’t do that. If the parent wants to give his/her child a fighting chance in this crazy world, who are we to tell them no? Especially if no other school will take them, you may as well send the child off to be a monk.
If the parents are not likely to expose their kids to the things which I don’t want to have my kids, in turn, exposed to, then I’m not advocating exclusion. If they are, then it’s their own choices which are “not giving their kids a fighting chance”.
Please don’t forget my disclaimer; I am assuming there is another shook for that child.
RABBAIM, no one in this discussion is advocating dividing schools according to kollel/non kollel lines.
MCP and interjection, why is the standard “going off”? I have much higher aspirations for my kids than that they merely “don’t go off”.
Frumnotyeshivish, part of my job as a vertical mechanech is to shield my kids from the things they shouldn’t be exposed to.
If I don’t guide then to a pure environment to the best if my abilities, I am being neglectful in my role as a vertical guide.
If the parents are not likely to expose their kids to the things which I don’t want to have my kids, in turn, exposed to, then I’m not advocating exclusion. If they are, then it’s their own choices which are “not giving their kids a fighting chance”.
I understand where you are coming from. However, it is not our “daas” that should decide the risk/reward calculation of accepting (or rejecting) a child whose parents “might” (or even “do”) expose their children to something that we may agree we do not want our children exposed to. That is why a Rov who knows the school, family, child & situation should be asked in every individual case.
Now of course, the school does not have to accept all comers, and there are good reasons to not accept a child (for example, the child is not from the area and there is no room, or the school can not afford to take the child that will not pay tuition over the child that will). The possibility of “exposure” to “something” (and it may be as innocent as an uncle or sibling who is not frum or is frum but (Chas V’Shalom) wears a blue shirt) is sometimes very much out of hand, and should be an individual shailah.
That is why a Rov who knows the school, family, child & situation should be asked in every individual case.
I don’t know how feasible that is, but a gadol’s guidelines should definitely be followed for admissions policy.
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