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PBA: I’m not sure if the side arguing for mixed seating is saying that it should be for married or perhaps only for singles, with a married couple or two at each table who volunteer to help break the ice.
Oomis1105, what about a man (especially, a bochur) sitting next to other people’s wifes who are very or very,very mekushat (fancy sheitels, lots of make-up, fancy outfits etc.)? “
When was the last time you noticed that happening at a wedding? (btw, the correct Hebrew word is Mekushetess, as mekushat is loshon zachar – just sayin’).
And if a man is sitting with his own wife at a mixed table, it is highly unlikely he will have the opportunity to be staring at someone else’s. But if he IS, that is HIS failing, for not learning a little self-control. As to sitting NEXT to another woman, that is easily remedied by only men sitting next to each other and only women next to each other, except to their own spouses. So I sit next to my husband, our male friend sits next to him, his wife sits next to her husband, the next wife at the table sits next to her, her husband next to HER, and so forth.
Al tarbeh is not a halachah, merely advice – not that it means don’t follow it, but you shouldn’t base a psak on it. And again, does that refer to a conversation with a woman when her husband is away, or is next to her as well?
Al Tarbe does not exclude whether her spouse is next to her or not.
WolfishMusings: You cannot make the Sheva Brochos of “shehasimcho bimoinoi” if the women are (or were) sitting next to the men.
Which does not, in any way, address the point I made (that a man is allowed to say Birchas HaMazon where women are present).
The Wolf
Oomis’s eitzah would work at tables of 8 or 12. But as most tables at most halls seat 10, the math doesn’t work.
Al tarbeh is not a halachah, merely advice – not that it means don’t follow it, but you shouldn’t base a psak on it. And again, does that refer to a conversation with a woman when her husband is away, or is next to her as well?
????? ???? – Normally when both husband and wife are present. No?
The issue is not bentching, it is the sheva brachos. I am a little surprised that most posters seemed not to be aware of that.
shlishi – you have got to be kidding.
But it bothers me when they say it’s wrong to have it.
Al tarbeh is not a halachah, merely advice – not that it means don’t follow it, but you shouldn’t base a psak on it.
Let me get this straight – it bothers you when someone says it’s wrong to disregard Chazal’s advice?
Also, is ???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ??? also merely advice, despite it appearing in the Shulchan Aruch (with the word ????)?
Oomis, about the dikduk — you are right. Just most people talk that way, so sometimes I do also.
As to the matter at hand, what do you mean when was the last time I saw that? If it is a mixed sitting wedding that could happen.
As far as staring goes, it does not have to be intentional to make the wrong effect. I do not intentionally stare at women, yet sitting next to or across the table from dressed-to-kill women would have negative consequences for me. It would still hold true if they were to sit at a next table or couple of tables away.
If all women showed up dressed “no frills, no sheitels (snoods, instead)”, there would be less reason for separate sitting. even then, it still would be a ma’alah.
I have never EVER seen bochurim seated with married women, unless they were their sons or brothers.
Oomis’s eitzah would work at tables of 8 or 12. But as most tables at most halls seat 10, the math doesn’t work. “
So you make a table with 11 seats and keep one empty.
Feif: Yes, it is always uncomfortable when people criticize what someone else does. But, I am compelled to point out that two posts ago you were criticizing us for adding to the torah.
Oomis, I mentioned bochurim as that would be the worst case scenario. Married men next to other people’s wives is also not good. And, for sure, you could have bochurim (or married men)sitting at the next table, in which case all those dressed-to-kill women would be sitting within their view for the entire seudah.
DY: I never noticed that before. The Mishnah Brurah and other Achronim point out in several places that Tzarich only implies a Lechatchilah.
I realize we are bending ourselves into pretzels here just to make a nice mixed seating wedding, but that last suggestion just won’t work. With 10 or 12 seats at a table (for the math impaired that’s 5-6 couples) there will always be one lady sitting next to one man who is not her spouse. I’ve been there. Leaving one empty seat is a very costly solution. As anyone fortunate to have paid for a catered simcha knows, you pay by chair or setting. You have to give the caterer an exact count of tables, & settings at each, several days in advance & are charged accordingly.
mdd, surely most males (including bochurim) eat Shabbos and Yom Tov meals at the same table as nicely-dressed married women who are not their relatives. How is that different from a wedding?
This whole “dressed to kill” issue bugs me. Is it tznius or not? I raised the question of form-fitting gowns earlier but no one seems to have responded.
When men and women get together, usually there is laughing with direct eye contact, this is against halacha.
Baruch Hashem, I can say that not only have I never attended a mixed seating wedding, but that I’ve never even been invited to one. To my entire circle of family, friends and neighbors, the very idea of a mixed seating wedding is extremely foreign. In fact, before running into this website I’d never heard of a religious Jewish wedding with mixed seating. And if someone had referenced a mixed seating wedding, I’d have automatically assumed it was a non-religious ceremony.
Yehudayona, I did not say it was ossur — I said it’s a good thing to have separate sitting. At Shabbos meals at home, it’s more difficult to have serarate sitting for a number of reasons. Plus, the women tend to show up there not as dressed up. However, I have been to Shabbos/Yom Tov meals where I felt uncomfortable because of the presence of overly fancy ladies.
And, yes, it is not tznius for married women to be dressed-to-kill.
Regarding the bracha of Shehasimcha bimono, the Maharam Yaffa says that since times have changed and now it’s normal for women to be walking in the streets at all times, the Rema which says not to say it in mixed seating no longer applies.
Obviously there were, and still are, big Rabbonim who hold it’s fine. As I said, if you want separate seating at a simcha you are making, go ahead. I don’t begrudge you doing so. But don’t attack those who have mixed seating.
Naysberg: I guess you wouldn’t have gone to most yeshiva dinners in the 1960s, or the weddings that many Roshei Yeshiva made back then.
I pity you for thinking that people who don’t do things like you aren’t religious.
Ummm, yehuday, your question did get a response. At least 1 that I know of. But it didn’t make it past the vigilant Mods. Apparently it’s difficult to phrase a reply on such an obviously unacceptable subject in a sufficiently modest, uncritical manner. So if you need to know, best to submit query to your LOR. Hopefully the Mods haven’t devised a way to censor his replies!
Feif Un: It is time for you to retract your comment of “Do we now know more than Chazal? Are we putting gezeiros in place so as not to transgress other gezeiros? That is not allowed.” in light of the fact that it has been pointed out:
?? ???? ???? ?? ????
???? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???
You have to give the caterer an exact count of tables, & settings at each, several days in advance & are charged accordingly.”
Ain’t necessarily so. Some halls (in fact A LOT of them) charge you for a minimum number of guests (usually around 400), whether or not that is how many you are inviting. You need to give them the count so they may set up the tables, but they will charge you for X number of seats either way. So you may as well cheshbon that into the table arrangements.
Sam,
I’m not sure that’s not, in a sense, the case over here.
The same level of harchakah which one should attempt to keep when possible, may not be assur in certain circumstances.
For example, even if we assume that separate seating is in the category of “meod meod”, and one should initially arrange a wedding as separate, that doesn’t make it unacceptable to sit in mixed company for a business meeting.
obviously there were, and still are, big Rabbonim who hold it’s fine.
I’m not sure how the “were” turned into “and still are”. Instead of asking if certain roshei yeshiva allowed mixed seating, why don’t you ask if they allowed mixed socializing? I suspect that you know what the answer would be.
I pity you for thinking that people who don’t do things like you aren’t religious.
I think you mischaracterized his post.
seperate seating is baloney. we had mixed seating for our kids bar mitzvas and the rabbis table managed to sit man woman, woman man, man woman etc…they had no problem whatsoever.
ive seen people sit mixed at engagement parties and say they wont sit mixed at a wedding. give me a break!
those who wont come because of seating can stay home…hypocrits
If you assign specific seats to specific individuals, what if someone doesn’t show up? Then you’ll have unrelated married opposite genders sitting next to each other.
And do you really leave no-shows seats empty?
What if an unexpected guest comes? You might not have a space to stick him/her in where he/she is not sitting next to an unrelated married opposite gender.
And, really, once the seating is mixed, even if you assign specific seats, is no one gonna sit in a seat there not assigned to? Of course it will almost always happen. And you will have men sitting to next to unrelated married women.
And socializing.
“There is a very long piece from the ??? ???? in ??? ?????, about mixed dancing. If anybody can find it, please write it here!”
Mayhap you are referring to the ????? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ????
The litvishe:
I don’t think the bochurim would socialize with married women. As for unmarried women, R’ Breuer’s position has been mentioned.
PAA: Quoting the T’shuvos R’ Akiva Eiger, correct?
He quotes the Shaar Ephraim.
I don’t know if it’s too late to add a reply. But the simple and easiest answer is read Geder Olam by the Chofetz Chaim. It’s a small and quick read unlike others.
Then decide if you want mix seating at wedding.
Ask your LOR.
So… the chasson and the kalah should be separated? I thought they’re married.
I am sure that this has been mentioned already in this thread: The way R’Moshe learns the sugya of mechitza, one is required for a wedding, even for seating, just like one was needed by Simchas Beis Hashoeva and just like one will be needed by levaya of Mashiach ben Yosef.
Others learn the sugya of mechitza as applying only to shuls and therefore opening up the possibility of allowing mixed seating at weddings.
DiDukDuck, yes.
I dont get it. Plenny of guys will be there that arent mature enough to be getting married. What about their olam habah? Same with girls.
And ya, the world is a sicker place.
Benignuman, as I once pointed out, R’ Moshe actually has a teshuvah being mattir mixed seating at weddings.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=916&st=&pgnum=102
?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ??????? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??
Others do asser.
DaasYochid, I am right.
Every person is right in his own eyes.
RebYidd23, to u that is.
DY,
I am pretty sure I saw a teshuvah from Reb Moshe assering in one of the later volumes (? or ?), because our weddings tend to be open to the public. Next time I have a chance I will look it up.
Aderaba, I would love to see it.
Perhaps benignuman is referring to Orach Chaim Chelek 5 Siman 12 Ose 1
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14679&st=&pgnum=66&hilite=
Two on a seat would allow double the amount of people into the same amount of space, with today’s large families I’m all for it…
from now on RSVP cards will ask the following,
number of people attending?
amount of seats needed?
fitting two over-sized people on one chair might be hard so a final question should be:
waist size of attending guests?
In Yoreh Deah 4:24:3 he reiterates that a wedding does not require a mechitza since it is not ???? ?????:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14679&st=&pgnum=256
What does pasuach lerabim mean?
If there’s no mechitza, according to many shittos shehasimcho bimoinoi can’t be said by sheva brochos. The reason for that limitation should clue one in why it isn’t recommended.
Even if fir arguments sake you don’t need a mechitza, you still cant have mixed seating!
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