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Frankly, I don’t understand the question. It should be obvious why we would want to cultivate in our daughters a love for our homeland of Eretz Yisroel. It is a mitzvah to live in E”Y, and while it may not be practical for many of us to make aliyah, even living there temporarily for a year or two is worthwhile. Imagine the spiritual benefits one can glean from living in the midst of our nation’s history, and the tremendous value in being immersed in lashon hakodesh. Imagine being surrounded by our brothers and sisters, of whom even the most sworn secular know their Tanach. Truly, there is no place in the world like E”Y. And in large families, it’s very likely that seminary is the earliest opportunity for girls to visit E”Y at all, due to their parents’ financial circumstances.
Regarding the “exoticism”: An 18-year-old is still a child in many respects. Send her to E”Y to learn Torah and make sure she understands that that’s what her primary goal is. But let her have some fun, too. When she comes back to the States, she’ll very likely go straight into the shidduch world, and could end up juggling work and family responsibilities on a tight budget before she’s old enough to drink. If she has the opportunity to go abroad and have some adventures with her friends, let her do it now before that opportunity disappears– and so she doesn’t end up jaded, thinking Yiddishkeit is all work and no play.
PBA:
Moshe Rabbeinu understandably wished to enter E”Y to perform the mitzvos that could be done there, but where did he express a love for the land?
And you still didn’t answer the question. What is the need for/purpose of “ahavat Eretz Yisrael”?
jfem:
Assuming that there is, in fact, a mitzva currently “in force” to live in E”Y if all the relevant parameters are met, why does it then follow that one should love the land?
Do we teach our sons to love their Tefillin, for example? Look at the incredible kedusha and connection to Hashem that Tefillin provides. Why no love for Tefillin, or countless other things?
(As to the immersion and “Lashon HaKodesh” and secular knowing Tanach and all that, I will not comment here on any of that.)
?????? ?? ??”?
?’ ????? ???? ??????
??”?: ???? ??????. ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????
Eretz Yisroel is our homeland. Of course we should love it. Do you not have an emotional attachment to the place where you grew up? How much more so should we have an emotional attachment to the land of our forebears, the land that Hashem promised us as a gift! I really don’t understand why this is such a difficult concept!
Popa- Why exactly do you not plan on sending your daughters to seminary in Israel?
Regarding Moshe Rabbeinu, I think there is an Rashi on the next to last pasuk in Haazinu, Rashi Asks, why does the pasuk say ‘El Haaretz’ when it has a few words earlier, ‘veShama lo Savo’, we know aleady where he’s not going. Rashi says there, because HaShem knows EY is CHaviv lecha’ so HaShem lets him see the land. I am not sure exact words not having a Chumash in front of me but that is the gist. What is Chaviva leCha? He doesn’t say Mitzvos, if so, maybe do some Mitzvah there?
I am very glad my daughter did go to Sem. Although now she is married and made Aliyah, of course I miss her and the children, but so i go to visit and they spend the summers here.
I would not want to not send a child there for fear she would move there.
I do hope that I can move there myself in the near furture. I am done with this ‘exceptional’ America.
jfem:
You still haven’t explained why one would love a land and the benefit of sending one’s daughter to E”Y for this purpose.
Yes, I agree that there might be an emotional attachment to a place where one grew up and that this could be extended to include E”Y because that is the land that our forefathers lived in, etc. and that we used to have until Hashem kicked us out.
As to “chiba”, this means a fondness, not ahava, but it’s irrelevant anyways.
None of that extends to create a mitzva to either be fond or to love any land and, as relevant to this thread, none of this explains the proposed benefit of sending one’s daughter to E”Y to increase her love of the land.
As to “chiba”, this means a fondness, not ahava, but it’s irrelevant anyways.
What’s irrelevant is your nitpicking of semantics.
Do you really not think that we shouldn’t cultivate in ourselves and our children the values which Chaza”l saw fit to share with us?
Hakatan, we agree that chibas haaretz has been twisted by some, but you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Not davka a mitzvah to love the land, no, but we should love it because it’s a gift from Hashem. There is tremendous chinuch potential here for hakaras hatov. Living in America and never visiting Israel is a pretty crummy way to treat a gift. It’s like keeping a wrapped box underneath your bed.
DY:
Point taken, but are you saying that Chazal propose a general hashkafa of chibas haAretz? Where is the source of this?
jfem:
It’s true that we are able to visit or even live there, but Hashem took it away from us. I will refrain here from commenting further in this particular aspect.
Hakatan, see ???”? ????? ?’ ?.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?sefer=14&hilchos=83&perek=5&halocha=10&hilite=
Reasons to go to seminary in Israel:
1) ?? ??? ???”? ????? ???? ????? ??????
(Kesubos 110b)
2)The Ramban (Leviticus 18:25) quotes the Sifri which says ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???????? ????? ???????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??????? ???????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? (?? ?) ????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? which seems to imply that the only purpose of mitzvos in chutz l’aretz is to prepare you for doing them in Israel
3)To fulfill the Gemara in Berachos (5a): ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???
PAA:
Regarding your #1, there are countless gedolim throughout the generations through today who were and are no rush to move to E”Y. Yes, some did try, but that doesn’t speak for the vast majority.
Even Rabbi Schachter of YU says your #2 is incorrect: doing mitzvos in Chutz laAretz is NOT simply “preparation” for doing so in E”Y. You can hear that on his speech given on this past Israeli Independence Day.
Regarding #3, we were also kicked out of E”Y afterwards, as mentioned above.
PBA and DY:
This simply reflects their joy at their ability to do mitzvos, to be in palterin shel melech, etc.
So I grant that one could feel joy upon entering the land, and I conceded this earlier because it is the land we once had, more mitzvos, Hashem’s palace, etc.
But, again, my prior question to DY still remains. And you have still not brought a mitzva or even a general hashkafa to “intend to love the land”, so to speak. “Ki ratzu…” is not a commandment, simply a reflection of my second paragraph here.
Finally, as relevant here, you have not brought a reason to send one’s daughter there for the reason of implanting “Ahavat Eretz Yisrael”.
See Shu”t Yeshuos Malko Y.D. Siman 66 and 67.
PAA:
What are you trying to say by bringing up this piece?
“PAA: What are you trying to say by bringing up this piece?”
Well I actually posted it before your other response to me was up. But either way, it is relevant to your first point. Also take note of the words ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????.
As to your second point, I didn’t quote R’ Schachter; I quoted the Ramban. If your point is that R’ Shachter understands the Ramban differently, then feel free to tell me what his understanding is.
My third point was a joke which apparently nobody got. But it does have some seriousness to it. Although I’m not sure what your response means.
PAA:
I read it before I replied to you. That line/piece is not in the slightest a siyua to Zionism, and I’m not interested in discussing it at this point due to the (frum) people involved in this particular matter.
I mentioned Rabbi Schachter because of his position in the institution in which he is employed. I think the implication is rather obvious. Our mesorah is not as you extrapolate from that piece, and even in the MO world they are aware of this. If you’re interested further in his understanding, you can either listen to that lecture or perhaps ask him yourself.
Gimar chasimah tovah to all of Klal Yisrael.
I never extrapolated any mesorah. All I did was present the opinion of the Ramban/Sifrei. When you said “Even Rabbi Schachter of YU says your #2 is incorrect” it was possible that you meant that I was misinterpreting the Ramban. It seems from your latest response that you were not making such a claim.
Are you disagreeing that someone who lives in Israel gets a mitzvah?
R’ Moshe Feinstein writes (Igros Moshe E.H. 1:102): ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??”? ?????”? ?? ???’ ???? ????’ ?????? ?? ?”? ????? ???? ???”? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? albeit not chiyuvis. Why is that not a good reason to go to seminary in Israel, even if you disregard the Ramban’s other position?
I agree with your last sentence.
No. I am not disagreeing that someone living in E”Y (not necessarily within the State of Israel, of course) gains that optional mitzva (if all else lines up).
My point was, however, as I keep mentioning, regarding the early poster commenting to the effect that she was working on “Ahavat Eretz Yisrael” by being there.
My question that nobody has answered is why one should work on “Ahavat E”Y” and, specifically relevant to this thread, why this “working on Ahavat E”Y” is a perceived advantage of going to seminary.
As mentioned earlier, I do not dispute that one who appreciates being in the platerin shel melech, etc. may feel joy as a result.
But why is it a good thing to work on loving the land? As mentioned, laying Tefillin is a mitzva chiyuvis for essentially all men, while living in E”Y is only applicable in certain cases. Shabbos is applicable to both men and women and is an os between us and Hashem, etc. also unlike E”Y. But we don’t teach our young men to love their tefillin, and neither men nor women to “love” Shabbos for that matter.
Once again, given the above, why is “Ahavat Eretz Yisrael”, emphasis on “Ahavat” perceived as a Jewish value?
If they love Eretz Yisrael they might decide to live there permanently which you agree is a mitzvah.
In your quote PAA the ahavas zion is directed to Hashem! But I’m sure you know that already!
Yes, we do in fact teach our children to love Shabbos.
“Shabbos is coming; we’re so happy, we’re gonna sing and shout out loud! Six days a week we wait for Shabbos, a gift from Hashem and we’re so proud! Let’s sing together, SHA A A BOS…”
Just one example.
“In your quote PAA the ahavas zion is directed to Hashem! But I’m sure you know that already!”
Oh, the problems with being one letter away from PBA.
It’s not just that, you’re styles are just so similar.
“It’s not just that, you’re styles are just so similar.”
Are they really?
“Because it’s my wife.”
And I’ve been waiting for a get for 11 years now.
Are they really?
Well, yours is a more feminine version.
And I’ve been waiting for a get for 11 years now.
Stop letting him have the last piece of cake, and maybe he’ll give it to you. It shouldn’t be a big deal; he’s got enough wives without you.
Well he was on the verge of giving it to me but then he read this: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/is-it-ever-proper-to-withhold-a-get
I’ve pretty much given up hope now.
PAA:
So you mean to say that there should be a mitzva to love the land so that people should live there (never mind that whatever mitzva there may currently be is far from universal)?
By that logic, there should be a mitzva to love Tefillin and Shabbos and all the others. If people love Tefillin then they’re more likely to lay Tefillin, too. Obviously, this is not a reason to institute a new mitzva to love something.
Again, as mentioned above, why is “Ahavat Eretz Yisrael”, emphasis on “Ahavat” perceived as a Jewish value (or even a major mitzva in certain circles), one that is perceived as an advantage to sending to seminary in E”Y as proposed earlier?
Who said anything about chas v’shalom creating a new mitzvah, which would be a clear violation of bal tosif?
As you correctly point out, those who love their tefillin are more likely to lay tefillin (and in fact there are men who have had the same set of tefillin for years and years, and prefer to spend more money on checking and repairing the same set periodically rather than purchasing a new set, because they are emotionally attached to that particular set).
Why then can you not admit that it is therefore worthwhile to instill in our children a love of Eretz YIsroel, so that they will be more likely to grow up and fulfill the mitzvah of living in Eretz Yisroel? Incidentally, whoever does this will have a share in that mitzvah even if he himself does not move to Eretz Yisroel, because he enabled his sons and daughters to do so.
I don’t think there are any social circles that literally conceive of “Ahavas Eretz Yisroel” as a mitzvah in and of itself. However, it is certainly a Jewish value for the reason mentioned above, and also because it is inherently a beautiful place (9/10 shares of the world’s beauty went to Yerushalayim, remember) and a precious gift from Hashem (and whether or not you believe that Hashem rescinded this gift, the fact that He gave it to us in the first place demonstrates that it is valuable and well worth loving. Don’t kids love toys they don’t actually own, because their parents won’t buy it or already took it away for bad behavior?)
Hakatan:
I never said there was a mitzvah to love the land. The only thing I said about loving the land is that it could lead to a mitzvah.
Also, seminary in Israel is better because ????? ???? ????? ????? (Bava Basra 158b).
The Chashukei Chemed there writes:
??? ????? ??”? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??????: ???? ????? ??????? ???”? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??. ?????: ???? ????? ‘???? ??? ????? ?? ?????… ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??????’ (????? ??) ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?”? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??”? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ??”? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????”? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? (?????? ?? ?? ?”?) ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??”? ???? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ‘???? ??? ????? ?? ?????’ ???”? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ??”? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??”? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??”? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??”? ?? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ??”?
If a quick visit to Israel helps for the future, then surely a year long stay will help, and even more certainly for the present.
JFem (and PAA and others):
Misplaced priorities and incorrect focus are not good things to teach our kids.
Simply speaking, living in E”Y is for those whose avodas Hashem will be best there.
So if one’s particular child or children’s avodas Hashem will NOT be best there, then it would be counter-productive to artificially instill in them this “Ahavat E”Y”.
So, no, I disagree with arbitrarily promoting “Ahavas E”Y”. At least with Tefillin (for men) and Shabbos, it’s universally applicable. And, with those, I have yet to see a school’s mission statement promote teaching our children a love of Shabbos or Tefillin.
Yet for some (obvious) reason, a “love of E”Y” is a popular one.
JFem (and others)
Regarding your claim that “I don’t think there are any social circles that literally conceive of “Ahavas Eretz Yisroel” as a mitzvah in and of itself”, that might or might not be true but, either way, they certainly come awfully close.
With a mantra like “Ahavat Yisrael, Torat Yisrael and E”Y”, which should be very familiar to those circles and with the mission statements of their schools clearly stating things like this, it is clearly a very high priority in their theology, if not an outright “mitzva”.
The alleged poster currently in Seminary earlier mentioned that she is working on her “Ahavat E”Y””. Others use the same term, too.
Given that no such term seems to exist in Chazal, unlike, say, “Ahavas Hashem” or “Ahavas Yisrael” (as in Jews, not the land), from where did this catch-phrase and hashkafa come, which seems to have no parallel for any mitzva, as I mentioned with Shabbos and Tefillin as examples?
Nobody wants to admit the obvious answer, I guess.
Hakatan:
There was a question posed by Lior towards the beginning of this thread: “Can anyone explain what benefit (other than partying/vacationing) there is to go to Israel seminary over domestic seminary? I never understood.”
That’s what I have been discussing. Do you think that I have failed to answer the question?
How on earth does sending one’s daughter to seminary in Eretz Yisroel teach her “misplaced priorities” and “incorrect focus”?
It is very appropriate to love Eretz Yisroel, even if you don’t live there. It is probably more important, actually, to instill this love into those children who DON’T plan to make aliyah, because one can’t help loving Eretz YIsroel if he actually lives there. I see nothing “arbitrary” about this.
Eretz Yisroel is our home. It’s where we came from, and where we are going. Unfortunately here in the Diaspora, it is so easy to get caught up in our little bubbles and forget that essential fact.
Shabbos and tefillin are mitzvos, things you do. Eretz Yisroel is a place (but not just any place; it’s our one true home). The comparison is apples and oranges.
??”? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ???? ??
(Discussing a student studying in Israel)
???? ?????? ??”? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????
????: ??? ?????? ????? ????”? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ?? ??????? ??? ???????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????”? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???
????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? (????? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ????????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???”? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???) ?
?????: ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????, ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??????????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ?? (???? ? – ?? ????? ?????? “???? ????” ??? ????? ??? ??”? ?????) ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?’ ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??????
??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???”? ????? ??????? (??????? ????? ?”?) “??? ???”? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?”? ????? (????? ?”?) ??? ??? ?’ ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? (???? ?’) ??? ???? ????” ??? ???? (?? ??? ?’) “????? ?”? ???? ?? ???”? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??”? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???”? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????” ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???”? ??? ??”? (???? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ?”? ???? ?’ ??? ?’) ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?’ ????? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? (????? ?? – – ??) ?????? ????? ??????? (?? ?????) ???? ??’ ????? ??’ ????? ???? ?????? ???”? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?? ?’ ????? ?? ???? ??’ ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????
?? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??”? (????? ????? ?”? ???? ?? ?????? ??????) ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ???
??? ???
?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? (????”? ????? ????? ??? ?’ ??”? ?????? ???? ?????? ?’ ???? ????? ?”?) ???? ??????
?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?”? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???????? ???????? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???????
??????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?’ ?????? “?? ?? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????” ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??? (??? ?????) ??”? ?? ?? ???? ?? (????????) ??”? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? “???? ??? ????” ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? (?????? ??? ????? ??”? ??) ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ??????? ??”? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ??”? ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ??”? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ??”? ??”? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???????? ???????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? (???? ????? ????”? ?”? ???? ???”? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ? – ?? ????) ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??”?
HaKatan: By the way, the think the mantra you’re referring to is “Am Yisrael, Torat Yisrael, B’Eretz Yisrael”. Oops…
Jfem, I hope you realize, we’re all with you on this one.
Even the ones not actively joining the discussion.
Except for HaKatan, who isn’t ever going to agree with you, no matter how many quotes PBA comes up with (I especially liked “Zechor … chibas Yerushalayim…) and how many Teshuvos PAA cuts and pastes (I was very impressed with that last one though it did take a while to get through all of it).
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