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Do you understand the notion of sending your 17-18 year old daughter halfway across the world for a year where she will be under the authority of someone else? I don’t.
They say that sherut leumi is yehareig v’al yaavor, because it is karov to arayos for a young single girl to be under an outside authority. I sure don’t see how seminary is any better.
At least in sherut l’eumi they can live in the same city and there is some oversight. You send your daughter halfway across the world for seminary!
Seems pretty crazy if you ask me. My daughters will not be going to Israel for seminary.
PBA: I thought they say it’s Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor because it’s Mib’chinas army service and army service is Arayos Mamash. (This was not facetious.)
I was under the impression that sherut leumi was assur because it’s compelled. A woman is allowed to have a male supervisor, as long as she can quit at her discretion.
That said, I agree that it is imperative that the seminaries have oversight, and that they be set up in a more secure way than some of them currently are.
(This was not facetious.)
I assume that your disclaimer was.
It is indeed not simple for a girl to leave in the middle of the year, which is why your point is well taken. I just don’t think it’s comparable to sheirut leumi where it’s illegal to leave, so while I agree it’s a bad idea, I don’t think it’s yehoreg v’al yaavor or even stam assur.
I’m with popa_bar_abba 100% on this discussion.
I know where. In the dorm, with a madrichah and an eim habayis or whatever they call it.
The whole idea of being away for the year makes me uncomfortable, but the setup doesn’t have to be where a man has personal interaction, which is not controllable in sherut leumi, AFAIK (though to be honest I really don’t).
I don’t think recent events should be blamed on the concept of seminary in EY (which I am against as the default), but on those particular circumstances.
Unfortunately, the lack of safeguards is not unique to this seminary, or to seminary at all.
Aside from the other points, from what I’ve seen a significant part of the seminary year for many if not most includes a healthy dose of partying and vacationing. Domestic seminary is generally a better option than going overseas.
Not all seminaries, AFAIK. For example, some are run by women.
Yet, I still favor domestic as the default.
DY:
I was under the impression that sherut leumi was assur because it’s compelled.
Sherut leumi is not compelled. A girl that does not go into the army does not have to do sherut leumi. Some girls get married straight out of high school, some go straight into college.
i still can’t believe seminaries lock girls in
I had 3 daughters in different seminaries, ALL with excellent reputations, Morot, Ra’beim, Aim bayet, madrichot, etc.
I can tell you that if a young woman wants to, she can take incredible classes, make connections with the kind of women you want your daughter to emulate, and grow incredibly both in hashkafa and limud during that year away from home.
I can also tell you, that if a young woman is looking to party, sleep late and just “zone out” she can do that to.
It is entirely up to the young woman. So my only piece of advice is to really, really, know your daughter, her friends and what she does, NOT what she says.
from Long Island: Are any of those benefits unavailable in domestic seminaries?
Takahmamash, if a girl joins sheirut leumi, can she leave when she wants?
A. A girl who signs up for Sheirut Leumi, signs a contract of sorts. Just like at any other job, she can leave whenever she wants. There is NO law compelling her to stay. Worst case scenario, she loses some benefits – but that rarely happens. Next: Yeharweg V’Al Ya’avor because she might have to work for a man?!?!?!? at least 50% of Sheirut Leumi placements are completely supervised by women.
Takahmamash, if a girl joins sheirut leumi, can she leave when she wants?
I don’t really know. My daughter did it for two years and didn’t leave early. As far as I know none of her friends did either.
Thanks for your response. If she cannot leave, then I call it being compelled, even if joining to begin with was her choice.
I know a girl who did sherut leumi by working in a seminary. I guess we could both agree that is bad?
I had missed this. Yes, I suppose.
The chilluk I am making, to be clear, is that the normal setup in seminary is supposed to be where the vast majority of interaction is among females, and interaction with males is pretty much limited to the very controlled environment of the classroom. Any more personal interaction should be an aberration, and unacceptable.
An office setup is much worse. Even an ordinary, non sheirut leumi mixed work environmenti is risky, and when combined with compulsion, according to my understanding, it becomes assur.
i still can’t believe seminaries lock girls in
Which is worse, that, or when they lock them out?
Guys, seminary is amazing. Stop kvetching about it.
🙂
Shalom from the Eretz HaKodesh, in the boondocks of Yerushalayim!
“Guys, seminary is amazing. Stop kvetching about it.”
I guess the one that Popa went to wasn’t(isn’t?) quite as good.
Sherut Leumi is not compulsory for religious girls, on the contrary, it is done on a voluntary basis.
(Or… A general noble feeling of obligation to the country etc etc etc)
In addition, if a girl were to be dissatisfied with her placement, she would be entitled and able to move to a different place to do sherut leumi, or to even pull out altogether. For this reason there are those today who see sherut leumi as a viable option for their daughters, and not as such a halachik problem as in the past, perhaps. I would however be concerned-or at least cautious- about sending my daughter to sherut leumi, but for other reasons, namely issues/dangers that exist in this area. It is not uncommon to hear of disturbing stories concerning sheut leumi too. This is aside from the spiritual and religious aspect of the story, and the dangers that such excursions pose.
Use some seichel- do not be naive about sending your children off to places of dubious standard and safety, be this sherut leumi or seminary. Yet do remember that there is a lot of good that your daughter could learn in seminary, or achieve in the world in general, and prohibiting and permitting must each come in their correct time and place.
Hatzlacha Raba
Back to the mishegas of it being the default option that high school grads go to Israel seminary.
Can anyone explain what benefit (other than partying/vacationing) there is to go to Israel seminary over domestic seminary? I never understood.
It gives girls the much needed break from their dysfunctional homes.
(I’m getting a helmet for when writersoul gets back)
DY, I was thinking more like full body armor, a la Knights of the Round Table.
But seriously, that was a terrific post!
I agree with PBA.
I think it makes much more sense to send one’s daughter to a quality domestic seminary rather where she can sleep at home rather than to put her under the control of a male head-of-seminary 6,000 miles (or 600 miles, for that matter) away where she would be essentially on her own.
I agree with golfer.
Full body armor while huddled in a miklat.
PAA: Popa’s already told me that I’m notin a real seminary. Apparently, real seminaries are awful and fake seminaries, like mine, rock this world.
Just to, in all seriousness, address DY:
A) My home is not dysfunctional. (I don’t know why I felt the need to reply to this except in case someone in my family happens to read it, Idunno. It just felt worth saying.)
B) In actual seriousness this time, I can see seminary being a waste of time for some people. To be really honest, if I weren’t getting a full year’s worth of college credits at the same time I’m not sure I’d be here at all.
That said, anything can be used for the positive and anything can be used for the negative. To be sure, there are girls here who have already started cutting classes to go to Ben Yehuda. There are girls who are makpid to ask which classes don’t have homework and tests in order to make sure that they have the easiest workload possible and don’t even care what the topic is. There are girls who are taking the exact minimum number of classes.
But those who want something more can find it very easily here, and that’s something that I wouldn’t give up for the world. Living in Eretz Yisrael is one thing (and a really big thing- going to the kotel Friday afternoon, on a whim, is not the sort of thing I’d be able to do while attending college in New York); learning Torah, from really knowledgeable and fantastic teachers, is another thing that shouldn’t be underestimated. For many of the girls here, this will be their last year (technically, really only year) dedicated to full-time Torah study, and that’s not something to be cheapened. Not everyone is here in order to goof off- some people do, in actuality, come to grow and learn.
Being against seminary as a DEFAULT is for sure a valid point. I don’t think I’d be here if my parents didn’t want me to be (almost more than I initially wanted to go myself, to be honest- if you’ll remember, I had a thread up a while back asking people to convince me to go at all). That said, if the whole institution of seminary didn’t exist, I would honestly doubt how useful or wise it would be. Now that it’s here, I can see it- to an extent.
Personally, I think of seminary as being like kollel- great as a concept, or something for an individual to decide to do, but pretty bad as a full lifestyle and supposedly necessary part of life. I love my seminary and I’m glad I came, but I don’t necessarily think it should have to be a default, either. In that I agree with you, DY. I just don’t think that the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater. Seminary can be a wonderful place.
DY- id rather be locked out than in.
WRITERSOUL- Guys, seminary is amazing. Stop kvetching about it.
i thought youre supposed to hate it and cry every night for the first half a year and only then love it?
like kollel- great as a concept, or something for an individual to decide to do, but pretty bad as a full lifestyle and supposedly necessary part of life
you obviously just started seminary. (sorry i just had to)
TAKAMAMASH- i just wanna publicly say i’m sorry for attacking you about sheirut leumi without first knowing the facts- that the mitzius is different today.
“PAA: Popa’s already told me that I’m notin a real seminary.”
Obviously. No one in a real seminary would say “kollel- great as a concept, or something for an individual to decide to do, but pretty bad as a full lifestyle and supposedly necessary part of life”.
That was a joke. Sort of.
TAKAMAMASH- i just wanna publicly say i’m sorry for attacking you about sheirut leumi without first knowing the facts- that the mitzius is different today.
I’m honestly not sure what you’re apologizing for, unless something you wrote went whoosh right over my head, but it’s fine.
writersoul: You didn’t address the question; specifically the question of Israel seminary vs. Domestic seminary. Your comment is regarding (Israeli) seminary vs. no seminary.
You can attend domestic seminary and get the virtually the same primary benefits you’ve cited.
To Lior:
I really did not research seminaries in the US for personal reasons. Most of our family lives in Israel and this was a way for our children to get to know their aunts, uncles & cousins.
FYI, ALL of our children came back to the US, completed their education and moved back to Israel.
They ALL live there now, permanently. Husbands, kids & all.
Lior:
Writersoul wrote “Just to, in all seriousness, address DY” so why would you expect your question to be addressed therein? But anyway it was sort of addressed: “But those who want something more can find it very easily here, and that’s something that I wouldn’t give up for the world. Living in Eretz Yisrael is one thing (and a really big thing- going to the kotel Friday afternoon, on a whim, is not the sort of thing I’d be able to do while attending college in New York)”
Now maybe you were preempting what I just said when you wrote “You can attend domestic seminary and get the virtually the same primary benefits you’ve cited” with the word “virtually” coming to exclude the benefit which I just quoted, or perhaps the word “primary” coming to exclude the benefit which I just quoted.
PAA: I want to thank you for answering your question to me.
Lior:
I didn’t answer my question, and what I said in regards to my answer to your question was merely to give you a possible way out.
Despite being in favor of domestic seminary as the default (meaning that I acknowledge that EY is better for some, but think the majority should stay), I will mention some advantages I’ve heard given to sem in EY.
Independence.
Experiencing how people live in EY. Seeing people living an austere lifestyle yet being happy serving Hashem makes an impact.
More choices. This is circular, but is nevertheless the current reality.
The hashkafos are better absorbed in a totally new environment, and specifically in EY where the haskafos are more intense and more passionately held.
Better Fro-Yo.
oyyoyyoy: Ha ha ha. Get back to me in June- 100 Galleons that my opinion won’t have changed.
And obviously there’s still adjustment and things I’m having a hard time with so far, but overall I think it’s awesome.
PAA: I’m actually not sure that it is a joke. Just to clarify (if my point needed clarification), the things I don’t like about kollel are more things that I don’t like about it being the default option. It’s a lifestyle that I’d personally consider but not because society will pressure me into it and not because I’ll “flip out” over here.
Lior: What PAA says in his response to you definitely applies, but I’d also like to address some of DY’s points that he makes in his last post: more choice. Exoticism. ISRAEL. For many many girls, another year of post-high school learning after twelfth grade just feels like thirteenth grade in a slightly different setting. I know that I never once considered it (if I hadn’t gone to sem I’d’ve gone straight to Stern, which would have saved my parents money, actually). Perhaps if there was an additional grade of school called “seminary” that was expected (as I believe they do things in Eretz Yisrael) it would be different, but many girls simply would not buy into the whole concept of seminary if not for the exoticism and newness of spending a year abroad in the Eretz Hakodesh. I know that to be honest, my parents pushed me to go to sem as much for the chavayah as anything else. My sister doesn’t want to go to Israel for sem and my parents aren’t pushing the sem concept for her nearly as much as they did for me. College, in many cases (though definitely not all) is cheaper and more effective as far as future life is concerned in the long run. So what makes people go to seminary and devote their full year to limudei kodesh? The chavayah, the experience of Eretz Yisrael.
And what, you say, about domestic sem? This is obviously not definitive, but my experience has been in the past that girls who go to local or non-Israel sem (such as my cousin who went to Toronto or my friend who went to Gateshead) did this as an alternative to going to Israel, because while all their friends were going to Israeli sems, this wasn’t a good option for them. It seems to me that people go to non-Israeli sems as an alternative to Israeli sems and very much not vice versa. Israel is a publicity mechanism, in a way, for the seminary experience itself, no matter where it might be. If the Israel seminary as an institution was abolished, I doubt that the American/British/etc system would stay afloat for long after.
This is obviously a debatable point, but from my vantage point I’d say it’s a valid one.
IMHO, “exoticism” isn’t a valid reason to go overseas seminary. Regarding experiencing an “austere lifestyle”, was that a gag? Whatever they may witness others living as, themselves they seem to be having a blast, vacationing, sightseeing and partying unlike anything they’d do at home. As far as independence, I don’t see why they need such an experience. The hashkofos point is the only one that holds any resonance.
“PAA: I’m actually not sure that it is a joke. Just to clarify (if my point needed clarification)”
You already clarified your point quite well:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/learning-boy-1#post-524992
writersoul:
“Israel is a publicity mechanism, in a way, for the seminary experience itself, no matter where it might be. If the Israel seminary as an institution was abolished, I doubt that the American/British/etc system would stay afloat for long after.”
While the “publicity mechanism” part may be true, for the traditional frum world, if attending seminary (wherever) is a good thing for post-high school young women then there is no reason to thing that it won’t happen without Israel. (But it wouldn’t surprise me if MO’s participation would drop without Israel due to theological rather than “advertisement” factors.)
Regarding Lior’s post, I think there is something to be said for witnessing people in Yerushalayim so removed from the materialism of this world despite the different lifestyle that these young women may have while in Israel. But I think the points are very reasonable.
“The hashkofos point is the only one that holds any resonance.”
That depends on the hashkafos.
HaKatan: Perhaps in an ideal world, but we’re not living in one. Seminary is technically not a necessity and therefore they rely on the packaging to sell it.
Lior: Nobody is talking about “valid” reasons. I’m personally talking about reasons stam. Each person decides whether or not they are valid. I know that here in sem so far, as much as I like the seminary itself, I’m growing to love love love Eretz Yisrael even more- even after only a week and a half. For me, let’s say, I’d say that my reason for coming would be more ahavat Eretz Yisrael than “exoticism,” and I’d say that that’s probably true for many/most girls, but then again people also want to try something different than they had before in high school. My friend went to seminary at her high school’s seminary and hated it because she felt like she was still in high school.
Nobody’s saying anything about necessity. They’re talking about supply/demand and free choice.
And I said nothing about seeing other people’s austerity or anything of the sort. In fact, one of the things I dislike about sem is the whole “essen tug” concept as far as Shabbos placement is concerned. It makes me really uncomfortable to ask people to put me up or to be placed, and I have no interest in eating some kollel family’s last piece of chicken. Let them eat it, or not buy it and save it for spending on something more important.
PAA: Wow. Are you stalking me? 🙂 I’d barely remembered writing that, but I still hold that opinion. (I haven’t either ruled out marrying a guy in kollel, anyway; but it’s definitely not a fait accompli.)
It actually reminds me of a pet peeve that I have here in sem. A lot of classes talk about their focus on building skills in learning, which I think is great, because trust me, mine can only get better. Then girls start raising their hands (no bushah!) and asking why they need to build skills, because when will they ever need them after seminary anyway. Sorry? Learning stops only after seminary? No, really, major attitude adjustment needed here.
“PAA: Wow. Are you stalking me? 🙂 I’d barely remembered writing that”
????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? (paraphrased from Sanhedrin 99a).
Also I don’t have important things that I’m learning in seminary to occupy my memory space. And did I forget to mention that I have a photographic memory?
writersoul:
What exactly is the need for/purpose of “ahavat Eretz Yisrael” that you tout it as a benefit of seminary?
I certainly agree with you that it makes no sense to eat a poor family’s last piece of chicken on Shabbos, but seeing the lifestyle to whatever extent does seem to have some value.
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