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APY: So from what you’re seeing today, based on your most recent comment here, you are indicating that girls going to seminary domestically are getting more shidduchim and are generally quicker to marry than those girls going to seminary in E”Y?
There were some tries to open Chassidishe Seminaries for American girls in Israel. They had to close. Chasidim aren’t foolish enough to buy into this expensive meshugas.
I am saying they are being redt shidduchim sooner, since they are here and the others are not. I did not make any claims about actually getting a date or getting married sooner. Admittedly, it would make for an interesting study.
I don’t think going to Seminary in Israel affects the number of shidduchim. There are girls who get married at 18 but a lot more, including those staying here, more likely will get married at 19 or later. I don’t think there is a need to do a study on this since our own anecdotal evidence based on people will know would reveal that outside of the chassidhe community, the number of girls who stay home instead of Israel for seminary who are getting engaged and/or married is relatively small. I for one think 18 is too young these days for anyone to marry.
In the 1970’s when the Prime Minister of EY came to America, they would meet with the American Gedolim. One time when Golda Meir was there, she asked as question as follows. I understand that the Rabonim are opposed to women serving in the army, but what is their opposition to Sherut L’eumi. Rav Moshe Feinstein was about to respond to her, when Rav Yaakov Kaminetzki said “I am older, let me respond”. He then stated that an essential part of the Kedusha of a Bas Yisroel is that her father knows where she is until he brings her to the chupa. I heard this 30 years ago, and I have not been given a satisfactory answer to how sending a girl to EY fits with what Rav Yaakov said.
I agree that seminary is being overused, but there are some people who SHOULD go. I myself think that I really need to learn kodesh in a english speaking environment that dorms. This I believe is a personal choice that fits my needs for next year. The first thing that fits the bill for what I need is american seminary. And I’ve checked them out. I feel the majority of girls I saw were immature, in-town, and wasting their parents money. There are sems in america, and seriously- they don’t get to venture out to see Israel that much. You can get the Israel expirience in the summer, a 3 months seminary, free programs available in many Out of town cities, and you can go live there on your own too after completing american sem and paying your own bills.
In any case, I know my parents have 0 money for seminary. That is why I’m being painfully realistic with myself that I have to go to the american israeli seminaries who understand the margin of income for Israelis-people not making it every month no matter how hard they work. Even so, I felt shana aleph in seminary is equivalent to israeli 11th and 12th grade and that it wasn’t for me.
In any case, there are reaosns people go to seminary, and sometimes it IS the best choice for someone. But more often than not girls get here that don’t need it, or even brings them down in the long run (think unrealistic expectation of life) and short run (think sem girls and yeshiva guys at ben yehudah 11pm any weekday night)
I know too many people who abused their sem year. If they would of gone to USA for sem they would of come out as better people versus worse.
Just a word in favor of seminary…
I loved my year. I would 100% do it again. I grew in ways that I didn’t even realize until long after I left, and none of it involved brainwashing. I had an amazing time with my friends (and yes, had “chavayot”) while meeting and visiting many families (and buying them hostess gifts…). I learned an insane amount of Torah and gained teachers who continue to inspire me. I’m in college now and wish I were back, and while I was there I was scheming all these different ways that I might not have to go home. But oh well… 🙂
How was my year successful, while many people don’t feel that way about the years that they or their children have? A few reasons I can think of:
1) I chose the seminary that was right for me. It has a certain name- a fantastic one in many ways, but if I had cared about the yeshivish reputation I’d have dropped it like a hot coal. And then I wouldn’t have had the amazing experience I had- and I don’t think it would have happened in other schools (though I could have had an experience that was great in other ways). I picked the school over the rep and it was the best thing I did.
2) Probably the most important- my parents and I were on the same page every step of the way. They were actually the ones who encouraged me to go, so that I could not only learn (as I could do in any country, really) but also to get a year of Eretz Yisrael in a way I would be unable to otherwise in a supervised yet reasonably free framework. They were extremely supportive, especially once I realized how much I wanted it. With my sister, they did not convince her, and she’s working on other ways to go to Israel. We both agreed on the place I would go to, we agreed that I’d arrange to get a year of college credit, we agreed on a budget/spending plan, and we agreed that I would not be doing Shana Bet. They put no pressure on me about reputation, no pressure about shidduchim. And beyond that, once they had checked out their end and set up these ground rules, they were satisfied that they could trust me- which was humbling. They expected me to do the right thing and I hope I did. They knew the hashkafa of my seminary and expected that I had the potential to come out a certain way, theoretically. They knew how much it might cost and prepared for that- and indeed they often had me pay my own way on things they didn’t consider essential. But we were always on the same page, and that’s probably the main reason why we’re all really happy with how it came out.
Nobody has to go to seminary- it is a decision between the parents and, most importantly, their daughter. Everyone should have leeway to choose one way or the other. But to write seminary off as a wasteful extravagance is to write off those who make the decision to send not as a default but as a best option.
Writersoul. In glad your experience was a positive and meaningful one. Unfortunately your last paragraph applies only in fantasy land. Societal pressure has dictated for a while that seminary is for all.
APY: In your opinion, for those girls that in reality should not, or chose not to, go to seminary, what would be the alternative(s)?
to all thos who are bashing seminary, where are you getting your info from??? these remarks are usually coming from jealous girls or parentd who cant afford it trying to convince their daughters that its not worth it. i went to sem and LOVED it. its an experience that you cant get any other time. visiting israel after or during sem isnt the same. spending time amongst true torahdiga ppl and learning in the holy land and just walking to the kotel during break is something you dont get all the time
!! its an experience that should be experienced by all those who can do it. it was worth every penny!!!!!!
and the thin vs. thick envelope isnt true. i got into all the sems i applied to and they were all thin,
seminaries dont brainwash. they guide you and display the true way of life just by living it. they are an example of the way most sem girls wanna live.
apy: I’d like to think it’s not. If it’s a problem for shidduchim, it’s the same type of problem as any- it’s hard for many girls, whether they went to sem or not. Nobody pretends it’s a cure-all for such things to go to sem. As far as societal pressure- I didn’t have a lot of things I wanted when I was a kid. If my parents hadn’t been so pro-sem, who knows if I would have done that either. I know girls who weren’t able to go to sem for financial reasons, family reasons… everyone has different circumstances, and people are a lot more open, understanding and reasonable in person than they’re given credit for. My sister’s not going (she simply doesn’t want to) and while she gets some annoying comments from people saying things like “you should totally go to where I went!” people by and large don’t say boo.
wannnabegood: Some sems do brainwash. I’m not even sure whether that’s a bad thing or not, but it’s definitely true, as I know from going to a sem which is known for not being a brainwashing-type sem where girls still came home that way. It’s an environment where girls are isolated from their families and very open to new ideas- it’s the perfect environment for that sort of thing, and the teachers take full advantage (as many of them, from various schools for both men and women) admitted to me.
eman wrote: “He [R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky} then stated that an essential part of the Kedusha of a Bas Yisroel is that her father knows where she is until he brings her to the chupa. I heard this 30 years ago, and I have not been given a satisfactory answer to how sending a girl to EY fits with what Rav Yaakov said.”
I think the fathers listening to Reb Yaakov’s hadrocha are sending to seminaries like Hadar where they keep track of the girls 24/7. The father has a shliach.
wannabegood: I get my information from daughters who went to seminary, good ones with excellent reputations.
As far as those who say “worth every penny,” well they aren’t your pennies that are being spent for you to make that comment; just your parents.
as far as seminaries brainwashing, well it all depends how you guide. If you send the girls to spend Shabbos with a kollel family and they just extol the virtues without the negatives, that is pretty much brainwashing, no matter what you call it.
Flatbusher: When people ask you information about your children for shidduch purposes, do you just extol their virtues without the negatives, thus brainwashing folks about your kids?
It’s not the same thing, and you know it.
@Joseph, when you do a shidduch call and like you said, ‘brainwash folks about your kids’, people still have access to more material. Someone interested in the girl/guy has different ways to receive more accurate information, even if you only speak about the positive aspects of your kid. A girl in seminary, on the other hand, has none of that.
She’s surrounded by only what the sem wants her to hear. That kid is isolated from reality. She has no other ways to learn what it’s really like. They don’t tell your daughter what it’s like having 4 kids and morning sickness and still have the entire burden of bringing home enough money for her entire family, they only tell her she has the most wonderful zechus of having her husband learn without having to worry about supporting his family.
So yes, that’s brainwashing.
Not all sems brainwash. And not all kids are that cut off from reality. Although when I went to look at sems I felt it was very true. No matter where I go I’ve met reality, and I know what it’s like. Perhaps israeli’s are just more mature, realistic, and have dealt with life more considering the wars, arabs, poverty, history of this land, and so many more challenges.
Shul I that does not ring true at all. These girls have chessed jobs by regular ladies who are struggling to get their dishes washed while pregnant, nursing and working full time. And they often help out in homes they visit on Shabbos which paint the same pictures.
Joseph. Many are in half day seminaries in the US while simultaneously working or attending college.
If you think that there is no societel pressure then I’m curious how people interpret the shidduch statements such as “the right camps and seminaries” or how those parents deal with questions such as “why didmt she go to seminary as if the as seminaries in the US are not.
If you believe I’m coming from a standpoint of jealousy then you don’t know me. For starters I’m a parent of mostly boys and if things in the futur eare as they are today I won’t have a srminary eligible daughter or one in shidduchim for almost 10 years.
I work with people associated with a NY based seminary and help them with some of the logistics and have met many of their students. They are happy for those who have the opportunity to study overseas and are also happy that societal prejudice against those who did not is slowly eroding. Some even express the point I made earlier. They are being suggested shidduchim after pesach of their first post high school year when appropriate and they feel it is to their advantage. Is it? I don’t know, but they feel it is.
Why send a letter? Just call on the phone.
My son took a farher in a yeshiva and a week later a representative of the Rosh yeshiva called to speak with him and told him they would be happy to have him join the yeshiva and to give a message to his parents that the administrative office would contact them in a few weeks.
Apushata, re: Why send a letter?… Administrators in yeshivas generally behave in a far more mentchlich, and all around efficient and decent manner, than personnel at seminaries and institutions providing education for girls. As far as I know, girls never have the experience your son had after their ‘farher’s.
If someone has a possible explanation, please share it with us.
Maybe each seminary, on average, gets many more applications than capacity than the average Yeshiva gets?
apy: It can also depend on the perceived quality of the kid and how badly the yeshiva wants him… I’ve known kids who have applied to the same mesivta where one was treated royally, was called a few days after his farher with his acceptance, etc and the other kid was treated very perfunctorily and got his letter a few weeks later- because they had a few GPA points different on their report cards. Seminaries are at least egalitarian about that sort of thing- they want the best kids, but they treat everyone basically the same.
flatbusher: 1st of all, i don’t know what sems u call “good”. 2nd, yes, i paid for my sem yr. i had money that i had been saving up for a couple of years and i took out a loan to cover the rest. so yeah, i can say it was worth every penny.
wanna: I know what are considered the good seminaries. I went through this process with my daughters, so I have a basis for my comments, and for all your seminary, you are quite chutzpadik so I don’t think seminary improved your middos. I don’t know how old you are but a high school girl takes out a loan? from where?
How was she “chutzpadik” and to whom? Agree or disagree, I don’t see any chutzpa or lack of middos at all.
flatbusher: going “through this process with [your] daughters” is not the same as experiencing it yourself. lets give wannabegood7 a break here. she is giving her opinion and you should respect that (even if you dont agree with it… i know i know, crazy concept). if anything, you are being disrespectful and maybe it would help you to attend seminary to improve your middos
Gosh flatbusher, a bit harsh on the response there.
Not really, when people who make such claims about seminary, I would expect different tone. Bubba, she was questioning my ability to determine what is a good seminary, and for all your criticism of me, your response to me as an older person isn’t any better. And I am not sure a seminary graduate should be spending time on the Internet unless it’s related to school or business, and I don’t think this qualifies as either, so I stand by my comments.
She wan’t questioning your ability to determine what is a good seminary, she was merely stating that she couldn’t comment on the specific seminaries you were referring to, and categorized as good, since she doesn’t know which seminaries you’re talking about.
I also think your claim of having more excuse to participating in this forum than she does is unfounded.
Sorry, flatbusher, her tone was fine. On the anonymous internet (which you are on, so if you think it’s wrong, you shouldn’t be here either, and if you think it’s okay, it’s okay for her) nobody knows how old you are, and nobody deserves more or less respect than anyone else.
Flatbusher: Maybe you ought to post your age with your comments so people will know to treat you with the respect you deserve. This is the internet, lady. No one knows whom they are talking to. I bet if you would have a face to face conversation you would both use more tact and show better midos.
Use this site for entertainment purposes only.
flatbusher: how do you know you are older than me? and, i think she was questioning your ability bc we all are. Have you ever experienced it? does not seem like it. So therefore, i also question your ability. you are uninformed and making assumptions from the outside, which is never good.
Ans, why shouldnt a seminary graduate be on the internet? how do you know that she isnt doing school or business in the other tab on her browser and she is just using this chat as a break? stop judging and making assumptions based on zero facts. you did it regarding seminary and now you are doing it regarding wannabegood7. And, why are you on the internet? whats your excuse? shoiuld i assume that you are using it for the wrong reason also, basedon nothing, just because im anonymous on the internet? a taste of your own medicine doesnt taste good, does it?
and, we may infer from wannabegood7’s username that she is striving to be good. that is more than you- you are ok being a flatbusher… yikes. way to set the bar low #Lamdus
This is the internet. Never assume anything about anyone. Anyone can take on any persona hiding behind a keyboard. Just evaluate and respond to the words that appear on your screen, nothing more, nothing less (even then, you are missing facial expression, tone body language).
Bubba: Not worth responding
may we assume that bubba21 is a 21 year old biker wannabe whose hero is some tough biker dude named bubba? perhaps she is a grandmother with 21 grandchildren? perhaps he is a bachur who hopes to get to daf chaf aleph in one of the bavas this zman?
As Felix Ungar told his roomate Oscar Madison, never assume….
abbreviated
faltbusher: wasnt worth responding to you either, to be honest. but i felt i had a duty to my fellow YWN CR readers to stand up for whats right.
lol
apushatayid: yes, you may assume the first option. the only think i will correct you on is that i am not a “wannabe”, but rather a seasoned biker with a mass following. i am the hero and tough biker dude that the young ones look up to. if you want to join our cause, please contact me.
I completely agree with Bubba- never judge others unless you are in the situation yourselves. But lets not fight we are all frum yiddin and are in this together
Flatbusher…………….
what high schooler takes out a loan? Anyone of them that applies to a seminary that will be giving college credit in an arrangement with a college in the USA.
15 Years ago when my eldest daughter wanted to spend a year in an Israeli Seminary, she was courted by one who offered college credit in conjunction with Cape Cod Community College. She was told she could fill out a FAFSA form and qualify for subsidized Stafford student loans, as well as Pell grants, etc.
She ended up not applying to that Seminary. She went to one in the USA and I sent her for the summer to stay with my sister and same age daughter in EY. BUT, other friends of hers did take the student loans to cover the year in Seminary.
Similarly, boys take the students loans coming out of high school to cover a year learning in EY at a Yeshiva that grants college credits through Touro.
Frum: could you tell me exactly what you are referring to? I commented about what is a good seminary. I didn’t have to go to one to make that assessment just as a young woman who goes to a specific seminary has only that experience to know whether it’s good and can base any other assessment only on someone else’s experience. I didn’t respond because I saw where this is going, but I responded to you because if your comment. When Bubba makes a comment “i think she was questioning your ability bc we all are” when such person cannot possibly know what everyone is thinking, it’s time not to respond.
i actually do know what everyone is thinking… for example, i know you are thinking right now “who is this bubba guy? i want to kill him”.
What’s wrong with teenage girls on the web? I’m a senior and I’m here. I’m the youngest here by far. As long as you respect those around you and act like an adult you will be treated like one in the CR. Use grammar, seichel, and respect, and you are good to go.
the internet chat rooms of the mid 90s had an ignore feature. you could choose the users whose comments you wished to see, and the others you would never see. why isnt that a feature of these blog type forums.
i just want to point out that some if not many girls i know did not enjoy seminary and only say they had an AMAZIIIING time because thats what is expected of them. Imagine your parents shelled out 20 grand? would you dare go back and say I wasted your money?
apushatayid- perhaps because this isn’t the 90’S.
And to teach us ahavas yisroel and tolerence. 🙂
I WISH some of the applications we used in the 90s were still commonplace. cc mail beats gmail hands down in my opinion. I cant stand gmail in fact.
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