Seminary Help: BY/MO, out-of-town, maybe Zionistic

Wow, this went places since I was here last…

Futuregirl- In some schools, havara might go back and forth- I have friends who went to Migdal Oz who had teachers who used sav instead of tav (mostly rabbis). I wouldn’t be hung up on it. I’m not sure about DB, but Michlalah certainly celebrates Yom Haatzmaut (I have great memories of it). MMY, Shaalvim, etc certainly do as well.

This might sound weird, but check out the list of schools that do Kedma (YU-sponsored choir competition for charity). Often, more BY places won’t allow their students to take part, and you can kind of detect a pattern. In yeshivish parlance, it’s basically DB and left. Also, you might want to check out the sem guide on YU’s website. (I think it’s basically the same schools.)

As far as gemara goes, some schools teach it, some schools don’t want to know if you learn it, and some schools may be more disapproving. Mich doesn’t teach it (though apparently they used to have an underground chug with a member of the administration) but they wouldn’t care if you did on your own time.

This could just be me, but I feel like, based on your description, places like Machon Maayan, Harova and Baer Miriam might not be as serious as you seem to want. I could be off base about that, though, so definitely talk to people who went there to find out for sure. If you are looking for that sort of thing, like I said, Midreshet Tehillah might also be a school to look into.

I don’t know if you live in NY, but you just missed YU’s Israel fair- maybe find out if your high school is having one?

LU- I wouldn’t knock Mich as being “not out of town” really. They got plenty of in towners, but also girls from all over the US and the world. I’d say it’s on par with DB in that regard (and on instinct, I’d think that DB was more “in-town” style). I also believe that if Zionism and MO aspects are important to futuregirl, she might prefer Mich to DB. I’d also say that I definitely know girls who are as the OP describes herself who went to Shaalvim, but I agree, MMY might be better.

Also, I like what you said about women’s gemara skills- you won’t find a lot of women on the same skill level as the average yeshivish man, but that’s only because he’s been learning gemara* for a very long time. Girls often just happen to have spent less time on the subject. Girls in coed schools with mixed gemara, for example, do just as well as their male classmates. And when they do put in that intense effort, they continue to shine.

One thing- first you say “many gedolim” might not agree with Zionism, then you say “the gedolim.” Wouldn’t that itself- the implication that some of “the gedolim” might not be as against Zionism as you say- imply a bit more of the pluralism that you say isn’t really right? How many gedolim are needed to form a consensus, and to whom must it apply? Must a person get approval from every gadol for their hashkafa? Or can someone rely on gedolei Torah whom they personally follow? And no, not all RZ is like Mercaz Harav, but plenty other RZ yeshivos and groups also are lesheim shamayim (I’d say all, just as I assume that all charedi groups are as well).

word substitution. Sorry but the negativity was not gonna fly, and I hope that isn’t a personal perspective 🙁

Regarding Gedolim and zionism, my IMPRESSION is that there is no one alive today who can be considered a Gadol who is zionistic. By Gadol, I am referring to someone on par with Rav Chaim Kanievsky shlita, and Rav Shteinman shlita. I am not referring to someone on par with Rav Avigdor Miller zatsal (Talmid Chacham, Tzaddik and Adam Gadol but not considered to be one of the Gedolei Hador outside of the CR, l’aniyas dati).

There definitely are people who are Talmidei Chachamim and Tzadikim who are zionistic (at least according to some meanings of the word), but I am under the IMPRESSION that there is no one CURRENTLY ALIVE who is considered a Gadol who is a zionist. I may be wrong, but that is my distinct impression. Of course, if you consider people on the level of Rav Avigdor Miller to be zionist, you will have a different opinion. But I really do not think that is the correct definition of a Gadol Hador, as far as I understand the term.

IT DOES NOT NECESSARILY FOLLOW FROM THAT THAT BEING A ZIONIST IS A PROBLEM, but it is an important point. Again, I am not giving an opinion – I am just stating what I THINK are the facts.

At the same time, I don’t believe that the Gedolim today have come out and said that it is assur for anyone to be a zionist, which is another important point, and part of the reason that I wouldn’t have started this topic of conversation in the first place. Apparently, being a zionist (in and of itself, although there can be many meanings/aspects to the concept) is not “yaihareig v’aal yaavor” and does not disqualify someone from being a Frum Yarei Shamayim and a ben Torah etc, even though it is POSSIBLE that this aspect of their hashkafa may be wrong. Certainly, if all that being zionistic means is that someone celebrates Yom haAtzmaut (with or w/o music, & with or w/o Hallel), who cares?

On the other hand, there MAY be some things that are often associated with zionism that may actually be assur according to all Gedolim even the Gedolim from the tzioni world (meaning Rav Kook). This is where Merkaz HaRav is distinct from a large part of the dati-leumi world.

There are two things in particular that I have in mind:

1. Sheurut leumi – as far as I know, at the time when it was originally established, all the Gedolim and the leaders of the Mizrachi world said that it was “yaihareig v’al yaavor” and yet today, most of the dati-leumi (as far as I know) aside from at least a segment of Merkaz haRav considers it okay to do sheurut leumi and encourages girls to do so.

As far as I know, there is no backing from Gedolim to do this.

2. From what I know, all Gedolim said that boys should avoid going to the army IF POSSIBLE, and certainly, if they are learning. I was told that Rav Kook said that boys should not go to the army. I think that is why in Merkaz HaRav, the boys do not go to the army. I may be wrong about that, and if someone has proof to the contrary, I would be interested in hearing it. (I am not talking about a case in which someone has no choice because he is planning on working, so legally, he has to go to the army – I am talking about as a l’chatchila). My impression is that the Hesder system was set up because boys were going to the regular army and not as a l’chatchila (btw, if it were l’chatchila, they should be doing 3 years like everyone else).

What is my point? I am not chas v’shalom trying to find bad things to say about other Yidden. My point is that there are many different definitions of the word “tzioni”/zionist, and it definitely SEEMS to me that some of those definitions (for example, if one considers army service to be a chiyuv l’chatchila or considers sheurut leumi to be a Mitzvah) may not have backing from any Gedolim. I may be wrong, and in any case, I am certainly not critical of those Jews who do sincerely believe that they are following Daas Torah. I am simply pointing out that it is POSSIBLE that there is no Daas Torah saying those things (but again, I could be wrong).

I just want to make it clear, (again) that I am not claiming to know definitively what Daas Torah is on the subject of zionism. I am simply stating the facts the way I understand them. I would not have brought up the topic, and certainly not on a seminary thread, but I felt that I should respond to Writer-Soul’s post.

Writersoul, I wanted to clarify something that may not be clear from my above posts: You wrote: “One thing- first you say “many gedolim” might not agree with Zionism, then you say “the gedolim.” Wouldn’t that itself- the implication that some of “the gedolim” might not be as against Zionism as “

I did not mean to imply that there are Gedolim who are in favor of zionism. I was deliberately trying to be vague and state things in such a way that leaves room for either possibility (that there may be some Gedolim who advocate zionism or there may be none.) This was partly because I am not 100% what Daas Torah is on the topic, and I did not want to make a definitive statement about something that I am not 100% sure of.

Also, I was not really interested in getting into an anti-zionist debate. Amongst other things, these types of debates can be unpleasant and sound like attacking, etc, and I hate arguments, and only engage in them when I feel it is necessary. After reading your post, I felt it necessary to state my views. But I sincerely hope that nothing I wrote came across as attacking (I can’t imagine it did, but if it did, I apologize as it was completely unintentional).

Again, I do not claim to have all the answers on the topic, and it is entirely impossible that I am mistaken about some of the things I wrote. This is simply my general understanding of the topic, and I do not claim to be an expert on it.

Kj -“Instead of looking for a Zionist seminary,I strongly reccomend finding one that teaches the Jewish religion”

I don’t think there is one!

As far as I know, Brisk doesn’t have a seminary. But maybe Satmar.

Is there one in EY?

I think anyone who has any suggestions for Futuregirl regarding seminaries should go to the other thread she started entitled “Baer Miriam”. That is where that discussion is continuing. and other topics should stay here or go elsewhere.

Thanks!

btw, writersoul, just wanted to mention that your views on this topic have a “maaleh” that mine don’t since you were in seminary recently so you know girls who were there recently, which is helpful.