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Hi,
I was wondering if I could get help choosing a seminary.
I want a seminary that is open-minded where you can ask the teacher almost anything and you will get a straight-faced answer. A mix of Hashkafa and textual learning would be great.
I am completely religious, kind of in-between BY and MO. I listen to non-Jewish music and do attend mixed events, though I dress tzniutly etc.
I am looking for a seminary I’d fit into, preferably Zionistic, where an out-of-towner would feel comfortable.
What about Darchei Binah?
Instead of looking for a Zionist seminary,I strongly reccomend finding one that teaches the Jewish religion
Do you prefer an outright Zionist, unapologetically MO place? If so, what about MMY or Shaalvim? There will be a mix, but there will be plenty of girls like you.
Michlalah is a little bit moving charedi-ward but is technically “nondenominational,” and DB has basically totally charedi staff, pushing kollel, etc while the girls tend to be more BY-light. (It’s a great school, though, from what I’ve heard, the question only being whether it’s you “type.”)
I went to Mich-
Michlalah is Zionist but not MO. Great teachers, most of whom are charedi but also most of whom do not push a charedi hashkafa. You will get answers and discussions if you want them, and you can also select your schedule to get the mix of hashkafa and textual learning you want. The student body is quite varied, and there are people from all over the place (one of my best friends from there comes from a place without a Jewish community at all). You’ll find a LOT of people like you. I don’t know whether gemara is something important to you or not, but Mich does not have it and MMY and Shaalvim do.
kj- cut it out.
KJ +1
Why attend a beis minis instead of going to a actual Jewish school,it’s assur to daven in a place with a Israeli flag and questionable if one may enter at all,so why attend such a heretical place?
“Why attend a beis minis instead of going to a actual Jewish school,it’s assur to daven in a place with a Israeli flag and questionable if one may enter at all,so why attend such a heretical place?”
I think that is only if you are Satmar. I am pretty sure that there have been completely acceptable places that have had the Israeli flag for whatever reason, and very shtark people davened in these places.
Imho, you should not make blanket statements stating that something is assur unless you know that it is completely true according to all acceptable opinions and can back it up with sources. I actually would be interested in knowing if you have a source for such a statement.
That being said, I agree that one should not davka choose a school based on the fact that it is zionist.
I can recommend some great places if you want to learn about Cain and Abel
Michlalah is very far from being an out-of-town type of place.
If you are in-between BY and MO, I would say that Darchei Binah (and possibly MMY) is a better choice than Shaalvim.
Yitzchak B.
Dear Yitzchak,
I’ve consulted with one of our rabbinic advisors, Rabbi Efraim Hersh Smilowitz, about your question, and this is what he said:
As long as they continue to say this prayer every Shabbos, you should not pray in the shul, even on a weekday. The reason is that by davening in the building, you are affirming that their shul represents a valid form of Judaism. It would be better to daven alone than to daven in such a shul.
He said that this is what the Satmar Rebbe, Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum zt”l, used to tell his talmidim when they visited a place where all the shuls were Zionist.
If it’s a small community, perhaps they will notice your absence and ask you about it, and when the rabbis realize that their Zionism is turning people off, maybe they will change. Or perhaps nine other people will agree with you and you’ll make a separate minyan. Let’s hope things change for the better.
Q&A from Natrina
It’s always praiseworthy to go beyond the halacha and act with kanaus in order to make a statement. Some tzaddikim of past generations, such as the Kalashitzer Rebbe, wouldn’t even go into a house if they had a star of david on the wall, even not one made as a Zionist symbol. They used to remove them from the paroches and the aron kodesh in shul.
Here’s the story I’m referring to:
Here’s a quote from the 5th Lubavitcher rebbe about using Judaism to promote Zionism
Whoever twists the meaning of the Torah and finds proofs to Zionism from the Torah, and especially from the Hidden Torah, is like one who places an idol in the Temple. G-d will not forgive him. May G-d in His great mercy remove this accursed doctrine from among the Jewish people, and inspire their hearts to repent to Him in truth. (Igros Kodesh)
I think I’ve made my point
“We must not minimize the seriousness of the grave sin of rejoicing or appearing to rejoice and making a festival on the terrible Day of Blasphemy that they call Yom Ha’Atzmaut (Independence Day). The day that the members of the conspiracy against G-d and his Messiah established their State of atheism over the Jewish People, uprooting the Holy Torah and the our faith, ushering in a period of bloodshed and suffering for myriads upon myriads of Jews.
This is much worse than accepting idolatry because they not only accept it but celebrate and rejoice in the terrible rebellion against G-d and His Holy Torah.
There are many sinners and deniers of the Jewish religion whose hearts trouble them because they are not serving G-d, but who are unable to withstand temptation and deceitful ideologies which confuse them. However, those who rejoice in this sin are guilty of much worse blasphemy.
May the Merciful save us from them and from their followers, and strengthen our hearts and enlighten our eyes in His Torah and in His service.”
( Vayoel Moshe, Vol. II, ch.157 )
All Jews untainted by Zionist heresy experience the bitter realization of how the Zionist heretics worked relentlessly throughout the years to uproot the Jewish People from their religious faith, and even to bring about untold physical suffering through the prohibited provocations against the nations. The Zionists have been the ones who have enflamed the fire of hostility against the Jewish People in ways too numerous to enumerate.
It is for this reason that many great rabbis called on faithful Jews to fast on the Zionist Independence Day, and to beseech G-d Alm-ghty to have mercy and grant peace to those people living in the Holy Land.
Rabbi Teitelbaum wrote that in previous generations great rabbis would have declared an obligatory worldwide fast day for such a dark day as the Zionist Independence Day, the basis of which is every sin in the world, especially bloodshed and promiscuity. He even said that such rabbis of the greater previous generations would have declared hundreds of days of fasting such as the Ninth of the Month of Av (commemorating the destruction of the ancient Temple in Jerusalem). He also stated that G-d rejects the religious holiday observances of anyone observing the Zionist holiday. The sources for his inspirational statements in Hebrew can be found in many places among his writings such as Hiddushei Torah, 1955/56, p, 52; ibid., p. 109; ibid., Sukkoth, p. 110.
A similar statement was made by Rabbi Avraham Yishaya Karelitz, the Chazon Ish. On the fifth of Iyar in the last year of the Chazon Ish’s life (1953), he was honored to officiate at three different circumcision celebrations. Still, he requested that the Tachanun prayer, usually omitted on such occasions, be said, lest someone come later on and testify, “The Chazon Ish did not say Tachanun on the fifth of Iyar,” without revealing the circumstances. He once said, “It would have been proper to declare the fifth of Iyar a public fast day.” (Mishkenos Haro’im, p. 1196)
“it’s okay with girls learning Gemara.”
On what level?
Most places just give a few photocopies of the pages,and the girls gain bragging rights, but little more
“it’s okay with girls learning Gemara.”
Find me one place that they really break their heads
The more modern schools do teach girls gemorah inside.
Its not clear to me if you are looking to go to Seminary in Israel or the states. I dont think there are that many seminaries in the US that have dorms. Thats more of an Israel thing (And in Gateshead , UK)
It is time for truth – MMY, TVA, Lindenbaum, Nishmat, and Migdal Oz to name a few. While the specific level of each of these schools is different all these places (and more) have serious beit midrash time
When giving advice about yiddishkeit to a stranger, Some advice will bring them close to yiddishkeit and others will push them away. While quoting gedolim is meritorious, quoting the wrong gadol to the wrong person can be harmful
I know several that do (with haskamos, in at least some cases), but I do not want to name them since it is may be avak l”h, as some posters may have negative opinions on the topic.
Instead of looking for a Zionist seminary,I strongly reccomend finding one that teaches the Jewish religion.
Yet another answer that proves the point that one should not seek answers from anonymous posters on the internet.
lilmod ulelamaid,Luna Lovegood,
Those places are perhaps bit better
But really ,do any girls or educated women actually go for even one day without relying on Artscrol ?
Take whole sugya and cover it until their heads pop?
Have you considered Machon Ma’ayan? That seems to fit the basic issues you’re looking for…
Be’er Miriam would also be a possibility…
It is Time for Truth – I know many who do, but I am not so comfortable discussing it. If it is okay for girls to learn Gemara, it is only with several conditions attached, and one of those is that it should be done b’tzina. In other words, it shouldn’t be a topic of conversation for the internet, imho.
But just to respond to your question, most girls can’t learn Gemara in depth, but that is not because they are not capable of it – it is because for hashkafic reasons, it is not considered an important thing for girls to learn, so even in those schools in which Gemara is taught, it is usually only taught as an optional side subject for the year of seminary. It is not considered one of the main courses, and it is not the subject that they are encouraged to continue learning after seminary.
Those girls/women who do consider Gemara learning to be important (whether rightly or wrongly) do continue learning Gemara in depth for several years and are quite capable of doing so. They can probably learn better than the average man because they are not the average women.
However, most girls/women feel that a girl’s time is better spent in other ways, so they do not spend any or much time on Gemara which is why they can’t learn it. But they may excel at Tanach or some other area of learning that they do consider to be more important.
Machon Maayan, Midreshet Harova. Darchei Bina a bit more right.
I daven that those who have taken the opportunity to post attacks on the genuine Torahdik outlooks of those they disagree with will have the hashpo’oh of respect for God fearing and Torah observing ahavas chinom swiftly, instead of the opposite currently displayed, r’l.
“I daven that those who have taken the opportunity to post attacks on the genuine Torahdik outlooks of those they disagree with will have the hashpo’oh of respect for God fearing and Torah observing ahavas chinom swiftly, instead of the opposite currently displayed, r’l.”
I am not sure what you are referring to, but I did not notice any sinas chinum on this thread. The fact that someone has a different opinion than you does not mean that they have any sinas chinam whatsoever, even if part of that opinion involves telling you that they think you are wrong (as long as it’s done respectfully).
And since it wasn’t, that might constitute sina
Also, I would not use the term “genuine Torahdik outlooks” as it is not always clear what outlooks can be considered genuine Torahdik outlooks. One person may consider something a genuine Torahdik outlook, but another person may not
It is time for truth- yes, they do learn without artscroll. I personally have learned a few masechtot without needing the help of an artscroll. I did use a dictionary here and there for the more difficult or less common words but for the most part I have the skills to learn on my own. And so do the women who attend these schools
LU, if you can even question that people and families associated with mosdos like Mercaz Harav, for example, and others like it are not a reflection of a genuine Torahdik outlook, I don’t have much else to add other than that I daven that your perspective becomes a reflection of ahavas chinom in this instance, as it so clearly has been in others.
“that your perspective becomes a reflection of ahavas chinom in this instance, as it so clearly has been in others.”
Thank you for the compliment! I disagree with your premise however. I am not stating my opinion on the hashkafa of Mercaz HaRav as I am not qualified to have an opinion on it, although I will say that from I know of the place, they are extremely ehrlich and Yarei Shamayim and definitely acting L’sheim Shamayim.
But in terms of your premise, I have to respectfully disagree. I think that there are Gedolim who would say that some of the philosophies and places within the Orthodox world are not genuine Torah philosophies, and therefore it would not be a problem for someone to say this. There are definitely schools that I have been involved with that I felt did things that were not based on a genuine Torah philosophy although they may have felt so.
I was once told by a certain chashuve Rav that I should stop working in a certain institution since he felt that they were doing things that he felt was problematic. He made sure to let me know that that didn’t mean that the place was passul just because there were certain things they were doing that were problematic (and in fact the only reason he told me to stop working there was because he thought it would be harmful for shidduchim.)
I think that your premise may be based on the Western concept of pluralism – there is an attitude that disagreement always involves sinah. I don’t think that is the Torah attitude. There have always been Gedolim who disagreed with other Gedolim and other approaches and did consider those people who adhered to them to be misled. It is possible for someone to have Yiras Shamayim and be a tzaddik and yet mistakenly think that a certain hashkafa is a Torahdik hashkafa.
I may be mistaken, but I am under the impression that many Gedolim would not consider zionism to be a Torahdik hashkafa, although they may consider many of its followers (such as those in Merkaz HaRav) to be Torahdik people and they would not consider Religious-Zionists to be “off the map” of the Orthodox world.
Just to be clear – I do not know with certainty that the Gedolim say this, although I think they do, so it should just be taken as an example (it also may depend on one’s definition of “zionism”).
All I did was post rabbinical quotations to attempt to prevent a Yid from participating kefira.simple
just want to add: if by “genuine Torah outlook” you mean that they are truly acting l’sheim shamayim and truly consider their outlook to be based on Torah then I would agree regarding Mercaz HaRav, but not necessarily all other places (and Mercaz haRav is not typical of the Religious-zionist world). In any case, that is not how I was defining the term.
Yichusdik – also, please note that you apparently don’t consider my idealogy as stated above to be a genuine Torahdik outlook. Does that mean that your ahavas chinam is lacking? (I don’t think so, but according to you , it would be).
kjchusid – Your intentions are admirable, but imho, it would have been more effective to quote more mainstream Gedolim (no disrespect meant chalila to the Satmar Rebbe), and to explain in your own words (respectfully, of course) why you have come to the conclusion that zionism is wrong. But I am not sure that this is an appropriate or effective forum for such a discussion in the first place. Also, I don’t think that referring to zionism as kefira is going to do much to convince someone who considers herself zionist that it’s wrong.
kj- I agree with LU. The OP was asking about seminaries, not about the shita of zionism. when she mentioned a zionist seminary, she was not talking about secular zionism, or a place that teaches kefira, but about a frum school that emphasizes ahaavat eretz yisroel. What exactly do you think goes on in such a school that she needs saving from? They will be taught that it is a mitzva to live in EY and they will say hallel on yom haatzmaut. It may be a bracha l’vatala according to many shitos, but I would not call it kefira. We know the satmar shita on zionism; so do the Religious Zionists and note that their rabbanim have not changed their shita in all this time. So there really is no point bringing up the Satmar shita when it was not asked for and will not be heeded.
Futuregirl – good idea.
I don’t have much to tell you. I don’t that much about B’eer Miriam. I was hoping that someone else would answer you. I hope someone answers you soon!
Have you considered Darchei Binah or Tomer Devora or MMY?
Futuregirl: I can’t speak about Beer Miriam from personal experience, but I have talmidos who have gone there and been very successful… It’s extremely warm, and provides girls a lot of space to grow at their own pace… it’s not a party school, but you do have girls at a variety of levels… I think describing it as “in the middle” between BY and MO would be very appropriate… the girls there seem very very happy, and come back very inspired to continue learning and growing… I hope that helps…
it’s possible, although I don’t know enough to say for sure. The only thing I know about Tomer Devora is that I subbed there one day many years ago. I was impressed by the girls – I thought they seemed very growth-oriented. at least by that point in the year – this was January, and I don’t know how they started out. But that was one day many years ago, so it doesn’t tell you much.
I don’t know you and I don’t have a clear picture of what you are looking for. Based on what you know, do you think that TD is more your type or DB?
Futuregirl – I had responded to you on the B’eer Miriam thread because I thought the conversation was being moved to there. I just realized that you might not have seen it.
I think KJ Chusid is a troll and is trying to hijack this thread and should be ignored. No one who really believes you cannot daven in a shul with an Israeli flag has any business being on the internet anyhow!
maybe he thinks you are allowed online if it’s “l’toeles” and he considers trying to get people to not be zionist to be a “toeles”.
not saying that I agree; I just don’t think that one should assume he is a troll or conclude that he should not be on the internet just because he is anti-zionist. One can argue that none of should be online since to some degree there is a “stira” between anyone being on the internet and being Frum, but we all have reasons why we decided that it’s okay (rightly or wrongly).
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