Seminary advice for hs senior

Hi baisyaakovliberal,

I know something about the seminaries, have worked in some of them in the past (although it was a long time ago, and schools do change), and have friends who still work in some of them, and I would love to be able to help you if I can.

Based on what you’re saying, I am not sure that Michlalah is the best option for you. The type of things that are issues for you could potentially. be bigger problems at Michlalah than in a Bais Yaakov seminary. On the other hand, Michlalah is a huge place and there are many teachers and types of teachers there, so everyone who goes can have a very different experience. A lot of it has to do with which teachers you end up having a kesher with. I still would not recommend it as a first choice. But I wouldn’t rule it out altogether.

I think Machon Raaya sounds like a very good idea. I don’t know enough about B’nos Avigail. I would also highly recommend Darchei Binah. I am surprised that you didn’t mention Darchei Binah as an option. It sounds to me right up your alley.

One advantage to DB is that it is not in a box – it is neither MO or untra-Orthodox. I can’t imagine your school would have a problem pushing you in, especially since your other option is going straight to college, and I would imagine that they would prefer that you go to any (or almost any) seminary first.

I am also wondering if Tomer Devora could be for you. I think it is different than the other schools you mentioned, and I don’t know a ton about it, but I wonder if it be worth looking into.

If none of the other options works out, you may want to consider MMY. I think it could make a lot of sense for you. It is the most intellectual seminary (and I have the impression that that is important to you). It is not really in a box, and the teachers are a range of hashkafos to some degree, but if one were to label it, it would probably be RWMO (right wing Modern Orthodox).

If you feel like you are heading in the direction of Modern Orthodox, it might be a good idea for you to experience sincere balanced Modern Orthodoxy rather than going to a BY seminary where you run the risk of either getting turned off or getting too “brainwashed” and then going in the opposite direction once you are in college. I’ve seen both happen to girls who were probably similar to you.

The only problem with MMY is that I don’t know how you would get in at this point. It doesn’t sound like your school would want to push it. Of course, if you point out to them that your other option is going straight to college, maybe they will decide that almost any seminary is better. Even if they do decide to push you in, they may not have any connections there, and I also am not sure that MMY is the type of school that one can push themselves into. But it might be worth trying.

1.”Do you think Machon Raaya would be okay with me going away to college?”

I don’t know.

2. “I may be wrong about the first two, please let me know if you have another perspective!”

Something in your original post was edited, so I have no idea what you are asking me! Sorry!

3. “By RWMO, I assume you mean hashkafically and not politically?”

yes. I mean, sincerely Frum.

4. “Do you think the places you mentioned would be unanimously right wing politically?”

I’m not sure what you mean by that. Are you talking about Israeli politics – not giving away land, pro-settlements, etc?

I would imagine the more Bais Yaakov places don’t talk much about politics altogether. The non-Bais Yaakovs tend to be pretty right-wing politically when it comes to the above issues. I don’t know how much it is discussed – it probably depends what’s going on in the country at the time. But again, is that what you are talking about?

5. Also, I suppose seminaries have marriage focused classes – are they the kind of stuff I’ve heard in high school (support your hubby’s learning, passive female roles etc.)?

It really depends on the school. MMY doesn’t talk much about that type of stuff. You can choose your classes, so even if there are one or two classes like that (which I don’t know if there even are), you would not have to take those classes.

I don’t know about the other schools mentioned. I think that most of these schools are on the open-minded side in terms of being understanding about where their students are coming from, but I don’t know how each compares to the other in that way.

“By the way, in terms of academics, I would love to have interesting Judaics classes, but I dislike the way most of high school was memorization. I would want a year without lots of pressure so that I’m not worn out when I get to college. At the same time, I do like learning and don’t want to be around people whose goal is to skip class.”

MMY pretty much fits that description. In terms of pressure, it depends how you define pressure. Unless things have changed, they don’t give much homework besides for studying for Finals during Finals time, so you don’t have that kind of pressure.

What they do have is a lot of cheverusa time including night seder (when you can learn with a chevrusa anything you want) from approximately 8:00 -9:45 at night (unless the schedule has changed over the years). But there are breaks during the day.

I think Machon Raayah, Darchei Binah, and B’nos Avigail all fit that description as well – interesting classes, not memorization type of learning, girls who seriously want to learn.

I do not know how Machon Raayah and B’nos Avigail are in terms of pressure. I don’t think that’s an issue at Darchei Binah.

try bjj i heard its unreal they are so accepting over there and they have the best hashkafa classes

I think the main difference between seminaries, as well as yeshivas, is this. In strong places, the teachers are people who have themselves spent several years sitting and learning Torah seriously. They have spent time interacting with other serious talmidei chachamim, learning from and interacting with them. Some of these serious people decide that they want to spend their lives teaching others, and thankfully they have tremendous experience on which to draw and teach, since they have spent many years learning first. They know chumash and midrashim, mishna (and gemarah), halacha and hashkafah, because they have spent years seriously studying these things.

At weaker places, most of the teachers are people that may have spent a year in seminary, but then spent very little time seriously learning Torah before starting to teach. From what I’ve heard DB is a really wonderful sem, but I am looking through their list of teachers online, and with very few exceptions, most of these teachers did not spend any serious amount of time learning themselves. Maybe they went to law school, or got a masters in teaching or social work, or even in Jewish education, but these are not people that have spent a significant number of years actually learning. Of course they must know something to teach, and they probably speak very nicely, are smart, organized, and “inspiring”, but you won’t get the same depth, generally speaking, that you’ll find in places who exclusively, or mostly, hire people who have been learning first for many years.

Consider this difference. You’re learning hlichose shabbos. A teacher in one sem is a person who learned the basics of hilchose shabbos in yeshiva or seminar. He/she knows the basics of borer, or mlaben, etc and teaches you the information in an organized manner. They can answer basic questions and their class leaves you educated and informed. When you have a question they look it up in the lamed tes melachose book and get back to you first thing tomorrow.

Now, consider another teacher, who doesn’t just know hilchose shabbos, but really knows hilchose shabbos. They were fortunate that when in yeshiva they learned it b’iyun, and still remember the important sugyas in shabbos, eiruvin, and throughout shas. They learned the mechaber and Tur, the magen avraham, and the other poskim. They feel comfortable picking up not just a shmiras shabbas khilchasa, but also tshuvose of r’ moshe feinstein and r’ shlomo zalman. They understand the nuances that can only be appreciated through broad experience, and have the ability to look back at the Rambam and the Milchamose, the gemaras, yerushalmis, the yam shel shlomo’s, etc.

Learning from these two teachers are two different types of experiences. I imagine that some places will provide mostly teachers in the former model, while a few very solid places will provide teachers of the second model. Migdal Oz is one extremely strong “MO” place that certainly provides teachers of the second type, and which I can’t recommend highly enough. I have heard good things about Midreshet Lindenbaum, but don’t know much about it. Michlalah probably has a mix, but certainly many teachers of the second kind.

Having teachers of the first or second kind does not mean that a place is better or worse. Many families are perfectly happy with teachers of the first kind, if they are warm and “inspiring”, and can help infuse a sense of meaning and worth in their daughters, and that’s very important. Many young women attending sems are looking to form connections with teachers and other students, and of course that has little to do with what kind of teachers they have.

Good luck with your applications!! May HKB”H help direct you to a place that is perfect for you.

What about planning a semester abroad in Israel after seminary too?

You can keep it in mind while you’re in seminary, to give yourself something to look forward to while you’re in the program.

Plus, you’ll still have Israel-time for personal growth, as you develop your college footing. Since you’ll be a freshman, there may be unique scholarships open to you.

Also, maybe LU knows more about this, but you may be able to find a frum community of college girls who you can dorm with in Israel.

You can build the life-experience in this setting, observing the mitzvot while still in college, and apply it to dorm-life when you return home. It could help you feel confident that you can keep your religious footing, which could help you keep strong when the time comes for you to transition to a more secular environment.

Just another idea to help you balance your experience and growth.

Regarding M’s post, I don’t think that getting a good education in seminary requires that the teachers be huge talmidei chachamim who learned gemara for many years. I think wise women can be more effective in teaching young women, can serve more as role models while still being able to impart lots of knowledge, whether it is chumash or hashkafa. Like LU said, there are many highly educated, very smart women teachers who know a lot of chumash and hashkafa, maybe more than the average man. And considering all things, it is much better/safer to have a close mentor-type of relationship with a female teacher, v’hameiven yavin. While it was once common in certain seminaries to have male teachers/talmeidi chachamim, I would not be surprised if this model is not changing. Note that many seminaries will have a notable posek/rav for their halacha classes, though, even if the rest of their staff is female.

“While it was once common in certain seminaries to have male teachers/talmeidi chachamim, I would not be surprised if this model is not changing.”

Unfortunately, over the past year, I think it has become more obvious to the oilam that it can be a big problem.

I personally am happy to have had men teachers since I think I learned a lot from them, but I think it’s better to at least make sure to only hire men teachers who are older and who have a good sense of boundaries. And there should also be a lot of women teachers so they can be the ones that girls talk to.

M – unfortunately, what you are writing about is all too true. I’m still trying to recover from the shock of recent revelations.

I am not sure that I agree that the teachers should focus less on connecting. I do think it’s very important, but there has to be more of a sense of boundaries. This is true for women teachers as well as men teachers.

The seminaries need to focus on establishing a healthy atmosphere and hiring teachers who are emotionally healthy and have a good sense of boundaries. There should also be some kind of therapist on staff, and the teachers should have some psychology training. I think the schools have been working on some of these issues in recent years.

There are men teachers who teach in seminaries and are good at connecting to their students but have a good sense of boundaries and healthy relationships.

It is true that such people are in the minority. And the charisma issue is a very real issue in the seminary world. That is why they should only hire men teachers who are older and have a good sense of boundaries. And the women teachers should be the main ones who are there for the students to connect with.

“By your posts it sounds like you would benefit from some serious face to face discussions with someone who can help you sort out some of your feelings and perspectives about religion and hashkofo.”

I second this!!

Forming connections with students does not have to mean manipulation. You are right that unfortunately, it often does, but that does not have to be the case.

The schools need to focus on hiring emotionally mature teachers who know how to form connections without manipulation. One of the problems is that the schools often hire very young teachers of both genders. They should certainly not be hiring young male teachers.

An emotionally mature teacher is someone who is comfortable with herself, who doesn’t force relationships with students, and doesn’t form relationships with students for her own fulfillment. She makes it clear to the students that she is there for them if they want to form a relationship with her, but it is their choice. Obviously, everyone is human, so it is impossible to form a relationship with someone that is completely about them and not at all about you, but the focus should be on what’s good for the student and not the teacher’s fulfillment that she could feel good about herself because all these students are connecting with her.

You can not get rid of the concept of teachers connecting with students altogether. That is one of the main points of seminary. Girls’ education is very different from boys’ education.

It is true that the fact that someone learned in Brisk for 10 years doesn’t mean that he will have the emotional maturity to form healthy relationships with his students. That is precisely why the main qualification for a seminary teacher is not necessarily their educational background.

One way to do things could be the model you suggested that there are 2 separate roles – there are people who are there to teach and there are people who are there to connect with. That could be a legitimate model for a seminary. But then it has to be clear (to both the educators and students) what each person’s role is.

But l’maaseh, that is not how most seminaries work. There may be a few teachers who it’s known that they just come in to impart information and then leave. But for the most part, that is not how seminaries work. This is probably because people see the main goal in girls’ education as being to form connections with them and to help them grow religiously and emotionally, and the learning is seen as a means to an end.

BaisYaakovliberal – hatzlacha rabba! Hope it works out for you to go to seminary (and to the one that will be best for you). I do think it’s very important, so I really hope it works out.

Please keep us updated if you can.

Can I STRONGLY disagree with lilmod about Michlalah (especially as I’m unclear why she thought it was a bad idea)? It sounds like a great place for you! You will find a lot of girls very similar to you (I know one girl almost certainly going there next year who I could actually see you being friends with from your description of yourself 🙂 ) and it’s an amazing place. I believe they’re getting a new program director who will bring it in a slightly more MO direction than it is now (it’s currently being run by a charedi woman). But there is a serious mix of teachers, and you can definitely pick the ones who you work best with (I did, and I had an amazing learning experience).

I wouldn’t necessarily pick a BY seminary- they are much more likely to try to dissuade you from dorming in college. I do agree with lilmod’s recommendation of MMY. (Again, I’m unsure why she recommended it over Mich.) I have several friends who went there and loved it.

If you want something more on the quirky-BY side, perhaps Midreshet Tehillah? I know a girl who went from there to Harvard, and she described it as a balance between a bit hashkafa-driven than Michlalah and yet still very intellectually motivating. The girls are probably more modern than the average Mich girl, and about the same as MMY girls. (However, MT is more likely to get LW BY girls, and MMY is more likely to get RW MO girls. Michlalah gets both.)

If my personal background makes a difference- I went to a middle-of-the-road, BY type high school and am now in Stern.

A final thought on this topic — when evaluating a seminary/yeshiva, ask yourself this question: what fraction of the administration’s and teachers’ efforts are focused on teaching/educating, and what fraction of their efforts are focused on connecting with students? Of course every place has some of each of these, and of course there can be overlap between teaching/educating and connecting, but the answer to this question will say much, I believe, about the institution, and about its suitability for different types of students.

lilmod ulelamaid — completely agree. A 17-year old doesn’t always know what will be best for them. But I’m not convinced that a teacher or guidance counselor would either always know what’s best. Maybe the twelfth grade rebbi, or the Israel guidance counselor, regularly gives bad advice? Of course these people are very well-intentioned, work hard, have tons of experience, and maybe their advice sounds very good. But who knows, maybe their advice is generally bad? Maybe those who follow it would have been much better off had they taken advice from someone else?

In short, I agree that a 17-year old, and a 37-year old, doesn’t always known what’s best for themselves, but it’s also not clear that there is someone out there that does. baisyaakovliberal sounds like a thought-out student, and might be best served by listening to a voice deep inside her. Or maybe not. Who knows….

Writer Soul: “If you want something more on the quirky-BY side, perhaps Midreshet Tehillah?”

I am glad you mentioned Midreshet Tehillah. I was thinking that that might be a really good idea, but I didn’t know enough about it to feel comfortable “pushing it” too much.

M +1

LB +1