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Is selling airline miles legal?
I have alot of amex points which can be transferred to an airline. Is there any airline which allows the sale of miles?
marbehshalom- I don’t think any airline allows it. You can give them as gifts, but not accept money for it. You can lose the rest of your points if an airline finds out that you sold points.
Thete are companies which specialize in this. At least one is currently running ads on Yeshiva World.
DaasYochid- you’ll notice that no one will put a name on such an ad. It is not against the law, which is why there are companies that do it. It is however against airline policy, which means you can lose your points if they find out.
Gamanit, the one currently advertising publishes their phone # and address, and advertises “Fast | Legal | Reliable”.
Another that I have seen advertise actually publishes the names of the owners.
Interesting… I’ve never seen any addresses mentioned in these ads before, only cellphone numbers. I have heard of people losing their points…
Gammit is correct, Its not really illegal, but Airlines do not allow it and if they find out they can disallow the ticket and cancel your account.
You are allowed to GIVE your miles to someone , so that is the loophole these places use, you give a ticket to someone and that person will then pay you.
Ive given a ticket to someone a few times, but I also flew with that person on the same flights so it did not raise a red flag, (Like you give your spouse or kids a ticket and fly with them or a friend and you fly somewhere together) however giving a ticket to someone and not flying with them does raise a red flag
my concern has always been (and continues to be) the tremendous Chillul Hashem it will make when the airlines (or authorities) discover the system and our brazeness at feigning legitimacy (if it indeed is not) (and yes, I know exactly who will post next to argue the word legitimacy instead of taking the post for what it means)
Syag Lchochma- airlines catch many people doing it. I don’t think it is more prevalent among us than among the general population. Airlines keep trying to figure out how to prevent it.
Gamanit – stam selling miles, or making it into a business with advertising?
From the FAQs page:
Yes… It is Legal.
Many airline mileage programs restrict the sale or trade of frequent flyer miles. However, you should know that there is no federal or state law prohibiting you from selling or trading your frequent flyer miles, Utah state law being the exception. Therefore, provided that the necessary precautions are taken, the sale and transfer of your miles can be a safe and secure procedure.
Cash 4 Miles goes to great lengths to ensure that each transaction is discreet and secure. Our top priority is safeguarding your account. Our highly qualified representatives screen all of our prospective buyers before they purchase, and are exceedingly vigilant when contacting the airlines. You can be assured that your account is always protected.
This does not seem right. If it’s against airline policies, then presumably you agreed to their terms, and are breaking your contract with them. There is no federal or state law forcing the airlines to disallow sale of miles, but it should still be illegal if the terms of agreement are not followed.
After further research, I’m not so sure. It seems that except for the state or states which outlaw selling miles, the airlines have no right, legally, to stop the consumer from selling miles. They do have a right to penalize the consumer, but it’s still perfectly legal to sell them, although they have a right to confiscate your miles and/or throw you out of the program. Sort of a legal cat and mouse game.
“Don’t ask don’t tell”
are you an attorney?
If you don’t mind, I’d rather not say, MS. Even were I to say that I am an attorney, as an anonymous poster, I wouldn’t have ne’emanus, and you would need to do your own research anyhow.
I would advise you to speak to a rov you trust, who deals in Choshen Mishpat shailos. He may very well have already done the legal research, or will. It’s probably a common shailah.
“Don’t ask don’t tell”
Chas v’shalom. Do ask.
You seem to be equating airline miles with amex points. Even if the airlines don’t allow you to sell miles, what is stopping you from transferring your amex points into someone else’s airline account? You aren’t selling airline miles, you are selling points that happen to turn into miles. (Though if airlines have rules against this I assume amex does as well).
That being said, it seems to me that a lot of people are doing this business nowadays. The airlines aren’t dumb, they most probably know that it is going on and are allowing it to happen. From a technical standpoint it shouldn’t be that hard for them to detect it with all the technology nowadays. If they wanted to stop it, they most probably would.
42, Our highly qualified representatives screen all of our prospective buyers before they purchase, and are exceedingly vigilant when contacting the airlines. You can be assured that your account is always protected.
This sounds to me like the miles brokers need to keep the information from the airlines.
breaking a contract isn’t stealing.
We have plenty of laws that make illegal all sorts of stuff, like larceny, larceny by trick, robbery, embezzlement, burglary, etc. None of those include breaking a contract.
The idea that it is stealing to break a contract is lunacy, and would violate the 13th amendment which prohibits slavery. If I make a contract to paint your house, and then my son is getting married that day–I am forced to paint your house anyway? No, I break the contract, you sue me, and I pay damages if any. But that’s a civil suit–not a criminal action!!
if you had a country which did not press charges against realy burglary. would it mean you break in to s/o’s house.—obviously not.
I assume by that you mean would I break and enter the dwelling of another in the nighttime with the intent to commit a felony within. I would not.
Popa, we would hope not. What I think might be a better example of what marbehshalom means, is, would you embezzle money from your company if it were legal.
I think there still might be a difference here; you are selling what is yours, you are just violating the t&c.
Except that if the law (dina d’malchusa) recognizes that you could sell your miles, that essentially means that it recognizes your right to transfer that z’chus.
did you see what i posted earlier.?? it seems that the law is not clear.
I don’t see that.
and even if you cant be prosecuted it doesent mean that the dina dimalchusa actually permits it . they just dont prosecute the violators
Is your distinction between civil law and criminal law? Because it isn’t illegal or immoral to do things that result in civil causes of action. Like my example with the contract.
did you see what i posted earlier.??
Yes. You cited a case from 3-4 gears ago which was about holding off a temporary injunction against a broker from doing business while the lawsuit was ongoing. More germane to the discussion would be the outcome of the underlying case. Was Frequent Flyer Depot barred from brokering rewards? I can’t tell you for sure, but I can say that they seem to still be in business; there’s a website with that name, owned by George Pirkle, who was listed in the lawsuit you mentioned. They claim to buy airline rewards points.
The airlines maintain that points, mileage or whatever you want to call it, is related to the fare of a flight. When the airline industry was deregulated, congress agreed that they would not regulate fares. Ergo, the airlines argue congress can not pass any law that impacts points or miles either. they maintain it is a contract between the airline and member of program subject to whatever terms and conditions they place on their programs. Whether this argument is true or not is something the supreme court considered I believe during the “Ginsburg vs Northwest Et Al” case it heard last year. Perhaps some lawyer has access to the decision and how they ruled.
“so basically the airlines are stealing when they close down someone’s mileage account.”
That was I believe a portion of the claim in Ginsburg vs Northwest
“except they cant be prosecuted since there was a deregulation.”
You misunderstood a portion of the claim made by the airlines. They argue that due to deregulation there are no applicable laws (since they argue this is related to the fare)that they violated and therefore the case doesnt belong in court. the airlines won this argument at the first level, a state court of appeals overturned the lower court and the case made its way to the supreme court.
“but good faith laws really allow you to sell miles.”
Part of the Ginsburg argument is that in his particular case the airline violated good faith laws of his home state.
“am i understanding you correctly?”
No, and you are not understanding the Ginsburg case either. It had nothing to do by the way with selling miles.
I dont know how the supreme court ruled on each of the arguments that were presented, as there were several points of law that were being argued, including the one relevant to your original question, specifically, are the rewards/points programs considered a component of the fare, or not. I do know that the supreme court ruled against Ginsburg.
There is a din and there is a dayan. I dont know the din, or how the dayanim ruled regarding airlines miles programs.
As for advertising things that are illegal, those who are in this business claim it isnt illegal.
It is legal to sell miles. It is also legal for the airline to confiscate them or throw you off the program if they catch you.
That is the din because that’s what the dayan said.
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