- This topic has 32 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
If the cashier shortchanges you but stubbornly claims she gave you the full change and refuses to correct her error, is it permissible to take merchandise equal in value to how much you were shortchanged?
Is this thread for real?
So you’re asking is it muttar to be in jail?
Also, :????? ?
?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?????
That’s why I quoted the Gemara.
Social order would break down quickly if all took the law into their own hands. If you feel you were wronged, go to the courts.
Shouldn’t the question be: May a shopkeeper use force to stop a thief who runs off with merchandise that wasn’t paid for? I believe the answer is in almost all legal systems is that the shopkeeper would be charged with murder for killing the thief, though in countries such as the USA the shopkeeper might be acquitted due to jury nullification (but don’t count on it).
There is a reason that one of the first mitsvos, applicable to goyim as it was one of the mitsvos of Bnei Noach, is to have a legal system. Settling disputes over trade good by blood feud is not a good policy.
The shopkeeper would be guilty of murder for killing the thief.
Goofus
If I grab your wallet from you and claim it is mine. Do you really think you have no right to grab it back, that “if you feel wronged you shoudl go to the courts”
Why is this different?
Lior, the wise thing to do is ask the manager to balance out the cash register.
Ubiquitin, there’s a difference between taking your own item and taking something as compensation for a different item.
DY
Arguably.
In this case, In a store where everything is for sale the items lying around all have a monetary value.
Put my wallet case aside for a second. Say Lior was shortchanged $5 which he watches the cashier slip into his pocket. Can he tiptoe around the cashier and pull his $5 out?
Can he take a different $5 from the cashier’s pocket?
I think most would agree Lior can do both and there is no need to “go to courts”
Do you disagree? Does anybody?
Taking a different item, say the cashier’s sunglasses that Lior estimates at $5 is trickier. So we can leave that aside.
Now in a store, say he watches the cashier slip the $5 into the register.
Can he take his $5 back out?
Can he take a different $5 bill out?
So far it is no different than the above. The only scenario that could be different is if the cashier is ripping of Lior and Lior is taking money “back” from the storeowner. I am assuming that isnt the discussion at hand (Either the cashier is the storeowner or the cashier seems to have made an honest mistake and isnt pocketing the disputed $5)
Again I assume we agree that Lior can take his $5 back from the register or a different $5.
Do you disagree? Does anybody?
Now in a store i would argue that Lior can take the sunglasses that have a $5 sticker on them. There is no estimation of value that is the value that the storeowner is assigning the sunglasses. Lior IS taking $5 back
Do you disagree?
Yes. See the gemara I quoted.
Lior l, what if the cashier needed the money to pay shul dues?
“Say Lior was shortchanged $5 which he watches the cashier slip into his pocket. Can he tiptoe around the cashier and pull his $5 out?
Can he take a different $5 from the cashier’s pocket?
I think most would agree Lior can do both and there is no need to “go to courts”
Do you disagree? Does anybody?”
SO the cashier, who in fact believes that it was his own $5 he put in his pocket, presses the “panic button” and the police will arrest: Lior — and not just for larceny but for robbery (the use of force to steal, a much more serious crime), and if the jury believe the cashier, Lior will have an opportunity to do kiruv work in a prison (not jail, prison, robbery is usually a felony).
Of course the cashier might decide to whack Lior with a large object (its self-defense), or perhaps the store guard (the cashier’s boyfriend, no doubt, comes over to do the whacking). Lior goes to the hospital, if he’s lucky.
Only if the shopkeeper uses excessive force will the shopkeeper be in trouble.
If we are bringing Gemaras I can also play the Gemara game. B”K 27b.
bottom line is my comment was to Goofus who said “”if you feel wronged you shoudl go to the courts” Al pi Halacha this is not correct In fact the very lashon of the siman in Shu”a where this is discussed is “Keitzad Oseh Din Leatzmoi” or “How a person can make judgment for himself”
In my first two scenarios there is no question the fellow can take his item back. The last case is arguable. Rema in the above siman bring Mordechai in Hamaniach as a yesh omrim that would arguably assur Lior’s action, (I only say arguable because I’m not clear on the difference between taking the item and another item. I will have to see Mordechai inside, it may be the case that in a store with an ssigned value to the item, it would be allowed)
However the first two scenarios are without doubt alowed. and Goofus’ assesment, and your blanket disagreement are wrong.
That’s not your item either. You gave, for example, a $20 bill for $15 worth of merchandise, so the store owner owes you $5, but there’s not one particular $5 bill which is yours.
akuperma: Most businesses have video cameras in their stores and on the registers. If the cashier pocketed the money, the camera would see it.
BarryLS1: Correct – meaning that the camera will also recall the customer’s assault on the cashier. Assault and battery (names vary between states) is usually a felony. If there is a video, then it should be quite easy to call the manager or the police. If the video shows you assaulting the cashier and grabbing cash, but not the cashier stealing your cash (and the cashier may know how to avoid being seen on camera), guess who goes to prison?
The cashiers are generally personally responsible for any shortfall in the register, Obviously if its under $1 they dont care and the store doesnt dock, but if the amount is significant they do dock
zd, in this case (assuming the cashier didn’t pocket the money), there would more than expected in the drawer (is that called a longfall?). Maybe one of the CR’s cashiers can tell us what happens in that case.
In many stores, the cashier doesn’t put the money tendered into the drawer until the customer has received the change. That’s so the customer can’t claim he gave the cashier a $20 bill when it was actually a $10.
Lior: Bava Kama 27. We Pasken in the Shulchan Aruch that it is Muttar but only in a case where there is absolutely no question that you would win this dispute in court. In this case, since there is no proof that would win in a Beis Din, it is Assur.
DY: Your logic about no particular $5 bill being yours is false because money is fungible.
Lior: Are you talking about a mugger, or about a cashier who you claim shortchanged you. When you are arrested for mugging the cashier, you may have some trouble. Police tend to side with the storekeepers.
If there is a good reason not to call the police (e.g. you are an illegal alien, there are warrants out for yhou, etc.), I can see the point. But getting into a fight that you may not win isn’t in your interests. If there is no evidence that can prove you case, the one caught breaching the peace gets arrested.
Lior: It could be that within the process of attempting to prevent him from completing his theft is different. But yes, if there is no proof or witnesses you cannot grab a $5 bill out of his hands (whether the same bill or a different one) at a later time.
IIRC larceny (in ny and common law regimes) and theft (in nj and MPC regimes) are specific intent crimes. Thus a reasonable belief that you are entitled to the property would be a theoretical legal defense. Ignorance of the law can be an excuse for larceny/theft. Just saying.
What is the case of Nascha D’Rav Abba?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.