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pashuteh yid,
its while the garment is worn
Are segulos connected to what Chazal say- “Odom nif’al k’fi p’ulosom”- a person is shaped according to his actions?
To all those who are so bothered with the fact that Segulos are taking away from Emuna, how come nobody complains about going to doctors and getting expensive security systems?
As far as the difference between superstition and Segulos, I can’t say it better than BP Totty.
The problems in Emuna are mostly from believing too much in the natural order. I haven’t heard of anybody having a problem with Emuna because perhaps Malach Gavriel caused it.
PY – “As far as the gemaras go, one can say they are not meant literally, but are meshalim for some deeper concepts.”
I believe that is the shitah of the Rambam.
So the Pasuk about Shaul Hamelech and the Baalas Ov is also a Mashal?
MW13, Yes, clearly the Rambam is lsheetoso. If he believes sheidim don’t exist, then the only way he can explain those gemaros is to say they are not-literal.
HaLeiVi, the Rambam says in Hilchos Avodah Zara that Ov and Yidoni were illusions and not real.
I will now say something which may upset some people, but please consider with an open mind. Possibly the belief in demons was a fear that people had in earlier times. Before people began to understand that disease was caused by germs, genetics or other natural causes, possibly it was common that great fear of unknown or supernatural beings existed because they were thought to be a cause. (Of course Hashem runs the show, but we now believe He does that in a natural, rather than supernatural way.)
I had occasion to look at the Encyclopedia Judaica under Demonology today, and there is a fascinating article on the topic. The writer collected from gemaras, psukim and many other sources (before the internet existed). What disturbs me is that many of the non-Jewish demons had the same names as the Jewish ones. So some of this may have been a pervasive belief or fear in ancient times. I find it troubling that these concepts have entered Yiddishkeit when they seem like Avoda Zara, and pagan beliefs. Don’t frum Jews believe that Hashem runs the show, period?
To amplify my earlier objection in previous posts, a (morbid) mashal is for example when we appeal for clemency of someone accused of a capital crime. Nobody tracks down the name of the executioner, say Mr. John Doe, and then writes a letter to the authorities saying please protect me from this horrible man, John Doe. Rather, one writes to the Governor and says, please commute the sentence of so and so. John Doe only does what he has been ordered to do. And if John Doe is off-duty that day, they have other executioners available. John Doe is not in charge of anything and has no say in the matter, and he does not affect the outcome in any way.
Why do we get involved at all with these supposed supernatural creatures, and not just daven to the RBSH?
” SEGULOS ARE EASY. Think about it, if you are having a serious family issue, one rav tells you to improve upon your behavior and actually change your middos vs. another rav who says just say a certain kfitel tehillim and wear a red string – which would you choose??? “
I’ve seen a quote attributed to Rabbi Yisrael Salanter that went something like, “It is harder to change a single character trait than to learn all of Shas.” Can anyone give a source?
“My problem with segulos and the like is that if you try to test them, somebody will label you an apikorus.”
Chazal in Shabat 61a talk about proving the efficacy of amulets. For reasons that I’ve never understood, they reject a biblical model of research design from the first perek of Sefer Daniel and rule that three successes means efficacy — with no mention of how many times the amulet has been tried (the denominator) and no comparison group as in Daniel to account for the fact that most illnesses clear up by themselves with no treatment. That Chazal knew about the importants of denominators is proven from the discussion in Taanit 21a regarding the definition of a plague that requires a public fast.
“I do not understand what role could be played by sheidim, for example.”
As others have pointed out, you are in the company of Rambam on that one!
“segulos have some source because EVERYONE has a minhag to do simanim on rosh hashana “
I had always thought that they were just excuses to say more blessings to HaShem!
“It is the Ramban who says the pshat on Azazel because he was a mysticist.”
Not in everything. In the Ramban’s long discussion of shiluach hakein in this week’s parsha, he spends pages on the rational/mussar approach and barely mentions that there might be another approach at the end of his commentary without describing it.
“you are saying that anything you can’t see can’t really exist”
Regarding the physical world, if you can’t see it (or detect it through some other sense) it doesn’t exist.
“How do you know He exists?”
Faith. HaShem is NOT part of the physicial world and can’t even be compared to anything in the physical world. See Rambam’s 3rd principle.
“how come nobody complains about going to doctors and getting expensive security systems?”
Rabbi Tendler explained this very well in a shiur a few years ago. Doctors don’t cure anybody, ever. (My wife is a physician and she agrees with this.) The healing is from HaShem and ONLY from HaShem. Once you realize that, the halachah requires us to go to real doctors with real medical training because that is the system HaShem set up. Relying only on faith is a major tenet of a Christian group and therefore might also be a violation of the prohibition of chukat hagoyim.
“The problems in Emuna are mostly from believing too much in the natural order.”
But we also get into *physical* trouble when we don’t accept the natural order. If you stick you hand in a fire you will get burned. More seriously, some frum people have bought into the junk science about vaccines being dangerous and now we have had the chilul HaShem of frum kids getting measles.
“then the only way he can explain those gemaros is to say they are not-literal”
Both Rambam and Ramban explictly write that we do not have to take any particular aggadata literally. Rabbi Avraham Ben HaRambam goes into greater detail and that seems to be the accepted wisdom regarding interpretation of aggadata given that his commentary is the introduction to the Ein Yaakov aggadata compilation.
Pashuteh Yid,
Please re-send the email you sent me. I can’t access it. My apologies.
PY – “Yes, clearly the Rambam is lsheetoso. If he believes sheidim don’t exist, then the only way he can explain those gemaros is to say they are not-literal.”
No, he simply translates the word sheid differently in each case. For instance, I once learned a gemora that said that if a sheid gave hasrah (warning) to somebody and there were aidim, he’s chayiv. The Rambam in that case writes that the Gemora is referring to voice from a source that is not visible (ie somebody hiding behind a wall).
“Possibly the belief in demons was a fear that people had in earlier times. Before people began to understand that disease was caused by germs, genetics or other natural causes, possibly it was common that great fear of unknown or supernatural beings existed because they were thought to be a cause.”
Wow, talk about controversial. But there are stories in the Gemora of amoraim actually fighting off sheidim, so it’s rather hard to say sheidim were a figment of their imagination.
“What disturbs me is that many of the non-Jewish demons had the same names as the Jewish ones.”
Maybe they got the names from us?
“I find it troubling that these concepts have entered Yiddishkeit when they seem like Avoda Zara, and pagan beliefs. Don’t frum Jews believe that Hashem runs the show, period?”
Again, nobody is saying that sheidim can do things without Hashem’s approval/instruction. I always thought that they operated like a wild animal: a ferocious, monstrous creature that can tear you limb from limb. After all, just because there are wild animals doesn’t mean that Hashem CH”V isn’t running the show, does it?
Charlie writes–“Regarding the physical world, if you can’t see it (or detect it through some other sense) it doesn’t exist.”
Yes, that is what I was saying earlier. It is interesting that we accept that the burden of proof is on the one who claims something exists to demonstrate it existence. We don’t allow somebody to say XYZ exists and if you can’t disprove me then it shows I am right.
I don’t know who established this rule, but it seems like a very logical and rational rule that is at the basis of science and all the technological progress that has been made. Possibly in earlier times, the burden was on those who did not accept the claim to be forced to disprove.
BTW, I resent the earlier email.
MW writes: “Again, nobody is saying that sheidim can do things without Hashem’s approval/instruction. I always thought that they operated like a wild animal: a ferocious, monstrous creature that can tear you limb from limb. After all, just because there are wild animals doesn’t mean that Hashem CH”V isn’t running the show, does it?”
The only problem with that is that people see animals in operation all the time and know they can be ferocious. Nobody that I know has ever seen a sheid, or even described what harmful things they do, or how they go about doing those things. Nobody has ever even given an example of any damage that we could not explain through purely physical means, such that we would have to look for some other cause.
One thing I will say, because I do not want to seem arrogant, is that there are many things we do not understand about the relationship of the physical world to the spiritual world. For example, I don’t think science can readily explain free-will. Any machine can only perform what it has been programmed to do. Its future state will be some function of the current state, plus the inputs. It cannot decide on its own whether it wants to do A or B. Yet humans seemingly can decide whether they want to raise their hands or not.
Presumably ones neshama decides what it wants to do, and then it commands the physical world (neurons in the brain or whatever) to proceed with A or B. How does it communicate with the physical world? It must, although no instrument could detect it. So perhaps sheidim operate at the interface of the spiritual and physical worlds, and can exert some effect upon the physical world although they are not physically detectable.
Just a brief thought, but obviously this is very complex.
PY – “The only problem with that is that people see animals in operation all the time and know they can be ferocious. Nobody that I know has ever seen a sheid, or even described what harmful things they do, or how they go about doing those things. Nobody has ever even given an example of any damage that we could not explain through purely physical means, such that we would have to look for some other cause.”
I believe most shitos hold that sheidim are no longer around today. The explanation I heard for this was that when the koach ha’tahorah (navim, open neisim, etc) was diminshed, the koach ha’tumah (sheidim, kishuf, etc) was similarly diminished to keep things balanced.
MW13, Unfortunately, those kind of answers bother me, like we are no longer on the madreiga for this or that. Yiftach bdoro kShmuel bdoro. It is sort of an easy way out type of thing when we can’t see something, we say it only happened at XYZ generation to XYZ people. Another thing that bothers me about that approach, is why do Chazal bother talking about it at all if it has no relevance to me whatsoever? Supposedly there is a Maamar Chazal that there were actually 600,000 Neviim throughout history. But we only have 24 books of Nach, because all the others were only for their dor, and were not relevant for later on. Only the ones in Nach are applicable for all time. So why do Chazal talk about things that are not applicable to me? And if you say it is relevant for the future, but the gemara also asks sometimes: Hilchesa limeshicha? In other words when mashiach comes, we will be taught the relevant halachos by the gedolim of that time.
In general, here is another issue to think about. I just learned in Rambam Issurei Biah 12:17 that if a non-Jewish baby gets mixed up with a Jewish baby, we convert both of them, and they are both safek gerim lhalacha. But at the time of Chazal, wouldn’t you think there were big mekubalim everywhere who could look at the babies and see their neshamos and easily tell the difference between a Jewish neshama and a non-Jewish neshama? Vaiz doch ois that in Yiddishkeit, we really don’t decide anything of importance by supernatural means, but we do so only by natural means. And both babies remain safek geirim. Same for Agunos. If a man didn’t return, couldn’t we go to the nearest mekubal and ask if he was still alive? Again, divination, even by great gedolim and mekubalim seems to have no place in halacha.
It would be interesting to know what the halacha would be if a Navi would say this baby is Jewish, or this man died. Would one be able to follow the Navi, or would he have to continue to treat it as a safek?
“MW13, Unfortunately, those kind of answers bother me, like we are no longer on the madreiga for this or that. Yiftach bdoro kShmuel bdoro. It is sort of an easy way out type of thing when we can’t see something, we say it only happened at XYZ generation to XYZ people.”
Let me put it this way: I assume that you believe that nevuah did exist, but doesn’t anymore. So why wouln’t you say the same about sheidim?
“Supposedly there is a Maamar Chazal that there were actually 600,000 Neviim throughout history. But we only have 24 books of Nach, because all the others were only for their dor, and were not relevant for later on. Only the ones in Nach are applicable for all time. So why do Chazal talk about things that are not applicable to me? And if you say it is relevant for the future, but the gemara also asks sometimes: Hilchesa limeshicha?”
There is a big difference between a Chazal and a Gemora. A Chazal is there to teach us what we should do (hashkafa, mussar, etc) while the Gemora is there to tell us what the halacha is. If you try getting halacha li’maseh conclusions out of every Chazal and Medrash, you might be busy for a while.
” I resent the earlier email.”
Got it! Will reply later.
I have never been able to verify this story. Can someone?
Supposedly R’ Elyashiv Shlita was asked to be sandek at the bris of a great-great (maybe only on great?) grandson. He refused to go because it would be a difficult trip roundtrip yerushalayim/bnei brbak and would result in him missing out on a lot of learning in hi sneed to rest from such a trip. The grandchildren supposedly dangled the argument that it is a segulah for a guaranteed ticket to olam habbah to be the sandek for a great great (1 great?) grandson. He supposedly replied that he would rather earn his olam habbah the old fashioned way.
Has anyone heard of this story? Is it verifiable? Part of it?
I saw in the Artscroll Machzor in Tashlich that it says we ask Hashem to protect our children from illness and sheidim. Again, I have no idea what type of damage sheidim can do.
One of the current gedolei haposkim in america lamented the fact that most of the shailos that he receives are about ayin harah etc.
While they are a real concept in yiddiskeit people are forgetting the ikur. A person who is RCHMLTZ”L in a tzarah needs to FOCUS (genuine segulos are ok if not the main focus) on 3 things: TESHUVAH, TFILLAH, and TZEDAKA.
coffee addict wrote:
“To paraphrase the Chofetz Chaim: Just as one may not denigrate another person, one may not denigrate oneself…self denigration is not anivus (humility). Anivus is self-effacement, which is a commendable trait; self denigration is not.” where is this quote from the Chofetz Chaim Ive always heard the story about the Chofetz Chaim dengrating himself on a train and someone slapped him and he said one can’t say lashon hara about himself but then i heard someone say that his grandaughter said that story isn’t true
so i want a source”
To say that the Chofetz Chaim would have paskened a halacha based on the above story is ridiculous. Halacha is paskened based on sources.
Furthermore there is a halacha mefurash in sefer Chofetz Chaim (I forget where precisely) where he says something along the lines of “saying loshon hora that is about someone else and one’s self together is still asur because you’re still saying loshon hora about another”. From that halacha it’s pretty much explicit that loshon hora about oneself is mutar.
Malei, unfortunately many people want a quick fix without having to do any work. We have instant coffee and instant meals so they also want peace NOW, Mashiach NOW, to fix their problems NOW. This is Eisaviut (lentil soup NOW).
Sholomrov, if it is an aveira ben adam laMakom it is prohibited to advertise it. If it is an aveira ben adam l’chaveiro it is praiseworthy (Rambam, Hilchot Teshuva 2:5). IMHO this is because he must rectify the damage he did to his fellow whereas one cannot damage Hashem.
Malei,
By leaving out the other part of what the posek said, you are twisting his statement.
He clearly did not mean that people should not ask shailos about Ayin Hora.
I am curios who this posek is that you are referring to.
6yo thread
Bump please
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