Segulos and Superstitions

the forty day thing is a real segula. (i forgot who says it and why) the problem lies in the fact that people start trusting in the segulos more than Hashem!, more than simple tefilla itself!

I heard that rav shlomo zalman said that certain groups should not do tashlich because they attribute so much power to it and don’t bother doing teshuva. It’s the same with segulos- when they come AFTER and are SECONDARY to teshuva and tefilla and real avodas Hashem, they are ok. But nowadays, segulos have become the Jewish version of a ‘fast-food’ lifestyle.

rumpelstiltskin

Who? The guy who spins straw into gold? (Hey, maybe there’s a segulah there! 🙂 )

this is the root of the idea of segulos. but were all mixed up today and often cant tell a segula founded in reality from one that may not be.

Fair enough… but I’ve always been of the firm belief that tefillah is the strongest “segulah” of all. Davening for parnassah is worth far more (IMHO) than saying Perek HaMon at the “right” time or any other segulah that’s out there.

But then again, I’m as dumb as a pile of bricks, so what do I know?

The Wolf

Anivus is self-effacement, which is a commendable trait; self denigration is not.

I never claimed to be an Anav. I do claim, however, to be one who speaks the truth. That’s one of the few positive character traits that I have.

The Wolf

As with many areas of halacha and hashkafa, there are 2 major schools of thought – the rationalists (Rambam, RaSaG etc…) and the mystics (Chassidishe Rebbes and Ari type kabbalists). It seems that the major machlokes between R’ Yonason Eyebshitz and the R’ Yakov Emden may also relate to the above issue. I certainly could not make an assertive claim that one approach is more valid than the however…

However, I agree with the premise of the original question that many people (even within the ‘mystical’ approach) have gone way too far and I think it’s simply because SEGULOS ARE EASY. Think about it, if you are having a serious family issue, one rav tells you to improve upon your behavior and actually change your middos vs. another rav who says just say a certain kfitel tehillim and wear a red string – which would you choose???

I never claimed to be an Anav. I do claim, however, to be one who speaks the truth. That’s one of the few positive character traits that I have.

lashon hara is usually (always?) the truth. that doesnt make it positive

I’m not sure I agree with your premise

negative or harmful TRUE statements are the very definition of lashon hara. there is no premise. you will find that on page one of any sefer of lashon hara. ask someone.

let’s keep it on the topic of segulos and superstitions.

exactly, lets dispense with the uneccessary comments about oneself, or at least try to limit yourself to say one a week.

fine

just keep it to yourself as much as possible

yeah R. moderator how did you change this to saying lashon hara about yourself wouldn’t this go under the LASHON HARA READ AT YOUR OWN RISK post

What people generally forget is the origin of segulos and simonim. The main point of tefilah is not the actual act of prayer. It’s the making yourself ready to pray, the work that goes into bringing you to the point of prayer, and then the aftermath of the prayer session. This is the concept of becoming an oved Hashem, of serving Hashem. The idea of making Hashem’s rotzon as your rotzon. Then when you have a rotzon, Hashem gives it to you. Pirkei Ovos. A seguloh was doing something that showed openly your desire to do something that would make Hashem kaviyochol “happy” with what you did. And the seguloh was similar to the idea of what you wanted to accomplish. The seguloh worked because you exhibited clear intention to be an oved Hashem with the act of doing or having the seguloh. That avdus is what made the seguloh work. If not, if you just do segulohs, then you’re in the rut of “mi bikeish zohs miyedchem ramos chatzerei”. Your olos and korbonos are too much for G-d to tolerate.

mbachur

i agree with you

My problem with segulos and the like is that if you try to test them, somebody will label you an apikorus. For instance if there are 100 people looking for shidduchim, the way to test is to have 50 do segula X and the other 50 not. Then you compare success rates of each group.

It is interesting that the Rambam says we absolutely should test neviim by making them do a number of osos and mofsim before we believe their prophecy. Otherwise anybody can claim to be a navi. However, if you suggest this for segulos, people will quite rapidly get angry at you.

Hi Mod-80, you are very perceptive. The truth is that I became very disillusioned with segulos and all types of superstitions recently. The crazy mayseh of the supposed dibbuk of the past year really upset me. How can we Jews become laughingstocks for the whole world–on video yet.

You see, I have nonreligious relatives who seize on this to make hilarious fun of religious Jews. We are supposed to be an Am chacham vnavon. I hate having to defend behavior which I can’t. Don’t people realize how weird this stuff looks like to the outside world?

Finally, I believe that the RBSH rules the world, period. I do not understand what role could be played by sheidim, for example. If ploni is righteous, then Hashem will treat him well. If not, then he may get in trouble CV. However, how will his plight be affected by a sheid for good or for bad?

Same with keshafim. While there are mekoros in sefarim that seem to indicate this may be black magic or magical powers, how can anybody verify this. Do we have anybody today who understands how to do it? If so, please let them give a demo that we can all see. I am very skeptical that this ever existed, so I choose to be a rationalist like the Rambam, unless somebody will conclusively prove to me otherwise.

I know this is difficult from a number of gemaras. For instance in Bava Basra, it tells of a non-Jewish woman who could turn water into a bowlful of scorpions. However, I believe the Rambam would not take this literally.

The whole topic is fascinating, though.

segulos have some source because EVERYONE has a minhag to do simanim on rosh hashana

Sefardim have the whole “superstitious” thing with the hamsa and the eye to ward of any ayin hara.

I’ve also heard that people who dont believe in this dont have to worry about getting any ayin hara. How does that work?

Some La-chashes work better than others:

The old standby is “Makpid Gamur” to be put on items left in a cafeteria to prevent them from mysteriously disappearing.

“Chalav Akum” works better.

Sometimes just reading the words of a prayer may not be enough. Hashem wants us to change through our prayers and segulos help us with it. Whichever way it happens but once we change then the decrees against us may change. When you go to a kever of a tzadik to pray somehow your kavonos may be a bit stronger. Because by doing something extra (something you dont usually do) you feel like your prayers will be more likely heard and answered so you concentrate on them better.

So i think segulos are needed for some of us to fool ourselves into praying with more attention. And once we do that enough times im sure we will change and our mazal will change with us.

(I think people can make up their own segulos as long as it leads you to pray better and to grow spiritually then it should work. However, it is obviously better to follow our tradition and only use the segulos that were passed over to us.)

Pashuteh Yid – “Finally, I believe that the RBSH rules the world, period. I do not understand what role could be played by sheidim, for example. If ploni is righteous, then Hashem will treat him well. If not, then he may get in trouble CV. However, how will his plight be affected by a sheid for good or for bad?”

Very simple – the Sheidim would be an instrument of punishment in the hands of Hashem, just like health/parnasseh problems and every other type of misfortune are.

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Sister Bear – “But there must be something about Segulos, if they’re brought down by different Gedolim.”

Segulos are real, as Mod-80 explained. However, that may only be the case if one has the right intentions, which is probably rarely the case these days. And either way, segulos were meant to support tefillah, teshuva, and tzdakah, not to replace them.

MW13, it is not so simple, since the bottom line is what would the sheid do? Give someone a potch? Take away his parnasa? What is the sheid doing that the RBSH is not doing directly.

In other words, what does the sheid add to the old concept of schar vaonesh? If somebody falls into a pit, why say it was some putative sheid that pushed him there. Why not say Hashem caused him to trip? Is there any way to detect the presence of a sheid? If not, can they add any info to our understanding of our world? Give me a hechi timtza where something happens that could only be explained by the existence of a sheid. I.e., an occurrence where clearly Hashem decided to operate via a sheid, rather than through nature.

For example, somebody chas vshalom loses his job. We generally say, Hashem made the boss decide to fire him or lay him off because business was bad and he could no longer afford to pay his salary. Is there anything to be gained by saying, Hashem told a sheid to transmit a message to the boss to lay him off. What has this second scenario added to our understanding of the situation, and how would one distinguish between the two possibilities? If one cannot, then do sheidim really exist? What is the operative definition of a sheid?

theprof,

simanim are basically segulos with a source, then.

sdim are between a human and a malach in terms of their physicality

they can be seen but only by those who are capable of seeing them (probably no one today, i suspect)

i believe they do their work primarily physically.

Mod-80, I guess what I am trying to say is that if we can’t detect them, then of what use is saying they exist? For all practical purposes, then, they don’t exist. I mean will you ever get into a situation where it is critical to know that there is a sheid up ahead, and you must take evasive or protective action.

A mashal is the ether. At first scientists believed that light required a medium and that the speed of light was with respect to this fixed ether. After a number of experiments it turned out that the ether could not be detected and that the speed of light did not depend on any fixed frame. So scientists said that ether does not exist. They did not say that it exists but is undetectable and plays no role. Might as well say it doesn’t exist. Easier to work with. Of course if some future experiment shows that light does require some medium (like sound requires air), they will say that it does exist. (But presumably they will require an experiment in which light in one situation cannot propagate, but in the identical situation, only with the addition of ether it can. And there would be some independent way to ascertain that there was no ether in the first, but there was ether present in the second as confirmed by XYZ brand ether-detecting compound.)

As far as the gemaras go, one can say they are not meant literally, but are meshalim for some deeper concepts. I mean is one of the 13 ikkarei emuna to believe in sheidim.

I will note though that in Acahrei Mos on the Sair Lazazel, the Ramban goes into a whole arichus that we bring a korbon on behlaf of a sheid, or something along those lines. He says that those who follow the wicked Greek (Aristotle, probably) who don’t believe in anything they cannot see are arrogant. I wonder if he means that Aristotle was known to be a wicked man for specific sins. I mean if he says that Aristotle was wicked because he didn’t want to believe in what he could not see, I fail to see why that makes him wicked. Don’t we say Ein lo ldayan ella mah sh’einav ro’os? Can you blame somebody for not wanting to accept superstition without proof of its existence?

On the ein lo ldayan topic, imagine if 2 witnesses said we saw Reuven raise his arm with a knife and plunge it into Shimon. But Reuven says, it wasn’t me, a sheid killed him before the knife entered. Or he says a sheid pushed my hand with the knife into Shimon, but the witnesses were not on the madreiga to see the sheid. Would he be patur?

Can you blame somebody for not wanting to accept superstition without proof of its existence?

so sdim are superstition!?

i could not possibly answer that

it would do no good.

and i need to work on anger control this week.

Mod 80, It is the Ramban who says the pshat on Azazel because he was a mysticist. The Rambam did not believe in Sheidim because he wa a rationalist. See Biur Hagra in YD 179.

As far as your questions about malachim, ein hochi nami, I don’t know what the purpose is. It seems that they appear very human sometimes, as even Avraham Avinu thought they were people. For me the mussar haskel is that even when we think somebody is ordinary, he could be very holy, because we never know the true essence of another. Beyond that I don’t know why we are told of the existence of malachim. I admit it bothers me. Even the Rambam talks of a hierarchy of malachim, although he was a rationalist which also puzzles me.

I honestly do have trouble understanding the high point of shacharis when we say vhaofanim vchayos hakodesh braash gadol misnasim l’umas seraphim l’umasam meshabchim vomrim. I have absolutely no idea what this means, and why we say it. All I can think of is that it depicts the great grandeur of the RBSH. However, is there anybody who really knows what these beings are, and why we are told of them? How are we supposed to have kavana when we haven’t the foggiest notion what it is supposed to mean?