Sefira Music

One thing I forgot to add: there is also a letter from R’ Shlomo Miller, signed also by R’ Forchheimer (from Lakewood) where he states that sefirah tapes (he spells it out) are assur to listen to during sefirah.

rabbiofberlin,

an avel can sing, right? (not sure they’re really in the mood – but there’s no halacha against it.)and technically on tisha baav you could too. we’re not here to make up halachas – just to find out the old ones.

i’ll be honest: i’m not the biggest music freak, but i do listen to whatever i want, whenever i want to. but i’m not gonna lie and say it’s muttar – i’d rather know i’m doing something wrong than fool myself.

i don’t listen to aka pella – i have no reason to – i just wanted to point that out.

and about hilchos aveilim, you might be right (i know nothing about those halachos – thank god) but wouldn’t you feel a little guilty if you were in that situation and you chose to be as meikil as possible? i know i would feel like i cheated. even if it’s muttar.

and that’s coming from me. (i don’t think you know me – if you read through some of the other threads you’ll get it.)

moish, yes, I’d probably feel awful, too. btw, I like your honesty.

~a~

Moish, you are lucky that you have never been in that situation. I hope you never are.

this is gonna sound really weird, but i hope i don’t die before my parents. that’s not the way it’s supposed to work. (they should live and be well – but they’ll reach 120 way before i do…)

and you think that’s what it is? i would imagine it because it’s the last time they get to do something for that person. why not do it right? i don’t mean to LOOK for every chumra out there. but why dig to get off the hook? (in general, it’s no big deal to say something is assur, but it takes a real rabbi to find a heter.)

i don’t know – maybe i’m very off.

the rambam says that the world will continue “ke’minhago.” whatever that means. i would assume that means that people will be born and die. but yes, better.

and what do you say to my second paragraph? (very nicely avoided, by the way ;))

and you think that’s what it is? i would imagine it because it’s the last time they get to do something for that person. why not do it right? i don’t mean to LOOK for every chumra out there. but why dig to get off the hook? (in general, it’s no big deal to say something is assur, but it takes a real rabbi to find a heter.)

moish, your understanding of people is pretty good. When my grandfather died, that was my mother’s attitude-this is the last time that I can do anything for my father and I want to do it right.

~a~

SJS, I disagree with you on this one:

“It has been my experience that the people who try to be extra machmir during shiva and aveilut are usually the ones who harbor a lot of guilt. Like, they lacked a good relationship with their parent so they are trying to make up for it.”

When my father a”h died I was careful not to listen to music, even recorded music. This wasn’t because our relationship was poor, but rather because that was how he would have behaved (and how he did behave when his own father died). He wouldn’t have thought about how the restrictions of availus made him “miss out on things”; as a true yarai shamayim, shemiras hamitzvos came first. Following the hilchos availus wasn’t so much “a last chance to do something for him”, but rather an opportunity to honor his memory by showing I’d internalized the lessons he taught me.

I didn’t say kaddish, though my brothers did.

I’m not trying to discount your own experiences, just offering a different perspective.

ROB: you say chumros don’t cut it for you. Let me ask you: are you machmir to only eat/drink cholov Yisrael? R’ Moshe said it’s muttar.

If R’ Moshe said it’s not allowed, is that not enough for you? R’ Moshe zt”l wasn’t just “any Rav”, and he said you shouldn’t listen to music during sefirah.

oomis, if you’re following the opinion of your Rav, that’s fine.

ROB said the following:

“I prefer to take the logical way- there is absolutely no mention in shulchan aruch of an outright ban on music and i don’t see why we should add- be moisiff- chumro upon chumro in a time that isn’t even a time of real aveilus and never mentiond in the gemoro.

Sorry, guys, chumros in sefira don’t cut it for me.”

My point was that if his attitude is that there is no mention of it in the Shulchan Aruch, R’ Moshe’s psak should make up for it. If he has this attitude towards chumros here, why not in other areas?

rabbiofberlin –

(it is not even clear if cutting one’s beard- i.e. shaving, is included).

probably because you’re not supposed to shave altogether. that was probably supposed to be assumed 😉

moish01- good line and funny!

Actually, bemechilas kevod toroscho, you are wrong. There is a difference in the loshon of the torah, the gemoro and the poskim. “sefirah” is cutting hair, “gilusch’ is cutting the beard (and other bodily hair-see the past parsha vehisgaloch). The perek in Moed koton is called “Elu megalchim” which incldues beard cutting. The shulcahn aruch speaks about “sefirah” which is cutting hair. Clearly, there are different conditions for hair-cutting and beard-cutting (see various hetterim to shave on chol hamoed). SO, I appareciate your comment but to me it is “tongue-in-cheek”.

feif un- I will try to look up the teshuvah from R’Moishe zz’l.

Actually, you have just introduced a new “gezeirah” : “No fast music because POSSIBLY you may end up dancing”? Since when do we make up our own gezeiros? Especially concerning a distant chumro…

I have great problems with the various “additions” that we continually make, especially concerning aveilus and ” al kamo vekamo” for sefira that is a “minhag hageonim’ and is never mentioned in gemoro.

to kapusta- I have no quarrel with anyone who wants to impose upon himself certain chumros. I do have problems when you try to impose it upon the whole world.

feif un, thanks for your post. Why is fast music not allowed? if the “issur’ is dancing (rikuddim umecholos)then why is music forbidden ? As I wrote- you just made a new gezeira- no fast music because MAYBE you would dance. There is no real rationale to add gezeiros.

bemused— ‘divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”. azus???

First of all- have you actually seen the teshuva of R”Moshe? I have not -although i intend to- and until i see it ,I will keep to my opinion. It is not me who says this about gezeiros- the poskim say that. We cannot -and should not- make our own gezeirus. This is a quintessential gezeira- no fast music because MAYBE we MIGHT dance-and on a subject -aveilus- when we are always “meikel”. so, in spite of your indignation- I will continue to keep to my opinion.

oh don’t worry, rabbiofberlin. no need to ask mechila- i’m always wrong anyway 😉 i don’t really know anything and i was just kidding about that anyway

feif un and bemused….I just had the opportunity to see the teshuva that you indicated. (Orach Chaim chelek alef, 166). Actually, with the greatest respect to you, the whole teshuvo has nothing to do with sefira, but with music all year round. As I indicated, there is an old-standing prohibition about playing music all year round- “zecher lechurbon-” (see Shulchan Aruch Orach Chaim 160-3) but, as you probabaly know, it is generally not enforced today. This is what R’Moshe discusses in this teshuvo UNTIL the LAST line of the teshuvo-where he says (I quote): ” and in the days of sefira, music with instruments (Zimro demano) should be prohibited, even according to the meikilim all year round”.

So- the teshuvo has nothing to do with general music in the sefira and actually only prohibits- at best- music with actual instruments.

And now the revelation- just before this line R’Moshe writes (actual quote):”if it is on the radio-actual quote- singing by voice is allowed -all year round- but music with instruments is prohibited”. R’Moshe EXPLICITLY allows voice singing on the radio, even if you think music all year round is prohibited.

So- “bemechilas kevod toroschem” there is still no inkling of recorded music of songs(like radio) being prohibited in sefira days (or all year round, for that matter).This is why I think R’Moshe allowed “chazanut” in the “jemei hasefira” because it is purely vocal.

Please note-bemused-that the putative gezeira of MAYBE dancing with fast music is nowhere to be found.So, I think that your harsh words towards me were not appropriate.

If there is another teshuvo by R’Moshe on this subject, please advise. As of now, I stand by my original opinion that recorded music in the sefira is not prohibited, a psak that you have heard from many Poskim.

rob: I never said chazzanut is assur – if anything, I said it would be allowed!

As for recorded music, R’ Moshe indicates that recorded music (with instruments) wouldn’t be allowed during sefirah, as I stated.

i knew that by the time i got to the end of the thread we wouldnt be talking about sefira music anymore but ok here are my suggestions:

Lev Tahor, 1&3

Kol Zimra

Chevra, A Cappella

613

A Coppela Treasury

i dont like them…

thanks! yeah i remember your lil getaways and comebacks

its funny how good and at-home i feel once im back!

From another Jewish web site:

Q: A cappella albums – singing without instrumental accompaniment – are becoming more and more common, especially during The Three Weeks and Sefirah when we are noheig not to listen to music. Is it halachically permissible to listen to a cappella music during these times of the year?

A Cappella

There are basically three types of a cappella.

One is where the musical sounds originate from human voices but the natural properties are digitally modified with computer software to attain quality of sounds that are not humanly possible, thus making it sound more like regular music. Such a cappella is halachically not viewed as being any different from regular music.

There are other forms of a cappella which sound very similar to regular music, although no digital modification is done to the voices. These types of a cappella should also not be listened to during Sefirah and The Three Weeks, as will be explained shortly.

The third type of a cappella is where regular songs are sung by an individual or choir. There is nothing halachically objectionable about listening to such a cappella during Sefirah and The Three Weeks.

To properly understand this topic, it would be helpful to briefly relate some technical information provided by experts in the music industry as to how a cappella music is created.

Digitally Modified A Cappella

Every sound is made up of many different sound waves, each at there own frequency. The individual frequencies and the velocity of each sound wave give each sound its unique tonal properties.

A second modification made is to the pitch of the notes. A bass guitar can play notes almost twice as low (two octaves lower) as a human voice can go. Therefore, in order to simulate the bass notes, some album producers lower the pitch of the notes beyond the capabilities of the human voice. This process of transposing the notes down an octave or more would also change the status of these notes from vocals to computer-generated sounds, and would be prohibited during Sefirah and The Three Weeks.

A third modification made is to the timing of the notes. The rhythmic structure of all music can be charted on a grid. The most common breakdown would be charted in eights. That means that each rhythmic hit would take place at exactly one interval of eights. It is not humanly possible for a musician to play 100% on the grid. This slight imperfection is what gives live music its human feel, as opposed to machine music which sounds much more rigid. It is even harder for a person to create a rhythm with his mouth, and keep it perfectly on grid. Many albums take the rhythmic parts and digitally place them exactly where they belong on the grid. This process is called quantization. Though this does not change the sound of the voice, when used in combination with any of the above processes it would give the sounds more of a status of music.

Unmodified A Cappella

If so, where does the entire issue of not listening to live or recorded music during Sefirah and The Three Weeks come from?

It appears that although there was no specific minhag not to listen to music, there was a minhag to abstain from things that bring about an excessive amount of enjoyment. Furthermore, technically, due to the churban Beis Hamikdosh, music should be forbidden all year round. However, there are certain kulos which we rely upon. It is during Sefirah and The Three Weeks that we have accepted upon ourselves not to rely on these kulos and practice aveilus in this regard. Music has this power more than most things that people do for enjoyment. Music can take someone out of this world, so to speak, and make him forget, at least temporarily, all his worries and problems. Thus, whether the music is live or recorded, it produces this effect, which is contrary to the minhag. A cappella that sounds very similar to music is also included in this minhag and should not be listened to.

Some rabbonim feel that once it sounds like music and is being played from an electronic device, that, too, renders it a musical device which is forbidden.

Choirs

A cappella music that was not modified at all, and sounds like a group of people singing, would be permissible.

It is interesting to note that the word a cappella literally means, a – in the style of, capella – a chapel. In a chapel, they have only a choir singing with no musical instruments (other than a pipe organ which blends together very well with the voices). The harmony of the choir is meant to produce the musical affect. This is where the concept of a cappella stems from.

*****

Harav Shlomo Miller, Rosh Kollel of Kollel Avreichim of Toronto and head of the Bais Horaah of Lakewood, has also stated his opinion that listening to a capella music during Sefirah is forbidden.

A600Kilo, whats Simon and Garfunkel? 😉

*kapusta*

BS”D

Kapusta, Simon and Garfunkel wrote some of the music for AKA Pella and Beatachon (the former of which is VERY problematic for the three weeks and is best listened to during the year.) :).

I used to listen to the Jewishbroadcast.com 3 weeks broadcast but I found it made me miss real music too much and one night I ended up forgetting it was the three weeks and turned on the real thing. So, I stay away. Otherwise, I would probably be OK with plain vocal albums; cannot remember which they are as I left them in the US when I moved out here.

Ames, that is a question for a rav, but from your description, why do you WANT to practice LOL?

BS”D

Anon, I am being semi-facetious. The acapella groups I mentioned set words from davening IIRC to old Simon and Garfunkel songs :). Simon and Garfunkel probably do not know who these groups are.