See It For Yourself

Shlomo hamelech could technically be. As for the rambam all the rambam proves is that once someone dies he is no longer considered moshiach even if he was once considered moshiach during his life, the rebbe is not considered moshiach, bar kochba was not moshiach after he died just like the rebbe is not moshiach, but that doesn’t mean it is not possible for there to be a miracle (techiya) and for things to change, halacha doesn’t speak about miracles, what I am saying is that a miracle is possible and then he will be like any other live person,

That is a reconstructionist reading of the rambam that only makes any sense if you don’t actually read the rambam or conveniently decide to edit it to suit your preconceived messianic feelings. What he says is “once he died he KNEW HE WASNT MASHIACH”.

it says they knew he wasn’t moshiach, we also know the rebbe is not moshiach, but is not moshiach means during the current situation where he is not alive, halacha doesn’t speak about miracles, but if there will be a miracle (which the medrash says there will) than he is not anymore dead and can be moshiach once again, the rambam is saying that if someone is thought to be moshiach currently and then he dies it means that he is currently not moshiach, the rebbe is also currently not moshiach, and you can’t say he for sure will, all I am saying is that it is possible,

“I actually once heard from a litveshe guy that the gr”a held that shlomo hamelech is moshiach…”

And the gabbai sheini at our shul says his nephew heard in the name of a chashuve rav that Moishe Rabeiniu is moishiach. On a serious note, I find it both humorous and a bit bizarre that anyone, including rabbonim from across the spectrum, purport to “know” who is moishiach or even speculate on his identity.

” all I am saying is that it is technically possible”
Not true, you are saying it’s incumbent on a chassid to hope for his Rebbe to be Moshiach, which is stupid and makes chassidus into a sports team (and may I point out, no one outside of chabad believes this anyway).

Two: It’s not technically possible, because the Rebbe isn’t greater than Dovid Hamelech. Even ignoring the Rambam, and going with thw gemara which does say mashiach can come from the dead, it clearly states it will be Daniel, not the Rebbe.

Whatsaktome, its quite clear from your posts that all your knowledge in this sugya is from hearsay and you haven’t looked in anything inside. May I suggest you do that?

Also the rambam says that if someone is bechezkas moshiach and he fails or dies, we know he is not moshiach, the rebbe was never bechezkas moshiach or on his way to being moshiach, therefore if there is techiya and then the rebbe fulfilled the requirements he can be moshiach then

“On a serious note, I find it both humorous and a bit bizarre that anyone, including rabbonim from across the spectrum, purport to “know” who is moishiach or even speculate on his identity.”

Across the spectrum? Nobody does this except for Lubavitchers. The example to which you were replying was pure hearsay, as you yourself pointed out. Why do you think there would be such a controversy around Chabad if this were a normal behavior?

וְאִם יַעֲמֹד מֶלֶךְ מִבֵּית דָּוִד הוֹגֶה בַּתּוֹרָה וְעוֹסֵק בְּמִצְוֹת כְּדָוִד אָבִיו. כְּפִי תּוֹרָה שֶׁבִּכְתָב וְשֶׁבְּעַל פֶּה. וְיָכֹף כָּל יִשְׂרָאֵל לֵילֵךְ בָּהּ וּלְחַזֵּק בִּדְקָהּ. וְיִלָּחֵם מִלְחֲמוֹת ה’. הֲרֵי זֶה בְּחֶזְקַת שֶׁהוּא מָשִׁיחַ. (אִם עָשָׂה וְהִצְלִיחַ וּבָנָה מִקְדָּשׁ בִּמְקוֹמוֹ וְקִבֵּץ נִדְחֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הֲרֵי זֶה מָשִׁיחַ בְּוַדַּאי. וִיתַקֵּן אֶת הָעוֹלָם כֻּלּוֹ לַעֲבֹד אֶת ה’ בְּיַחַד שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר כִּי אָז אֶהְפֹּךְ אֶל עַמִּים שָׂפָה בְרוּרָה לִקְרֹא כֻלָּם בְּשֵׁם ה’ וּלְעָבְדוֹ שְׁכֶם אֶחָד):
Now, if a king should arise from the House of David who is versed in Torah and engages in Commandments, as did David his forefather, in accordance with both the Written and the Oral Torahs, and he enjoins all of Israel to follow in its ways and encourages them to repair its breaches, and he fights the Wars of G-d128I.e. he defends Israel., then he may be presumed to be the Messiah. If he succeeds in his efforts and defeats the enemies around and builds the Sanctuary in its proper place and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Messiah.
וְאִם לֹא הִצְלִיחַ עַד כֹּה, אוֹ נֶהֱרָג, בְּיָדוּעַ שֶׁאֵינוֹ זֶה שֶׁהִבְטִיחָה עָלָיו תּוֹרָה, וַהֲרֵי הוּא כְּכָל מַלְכֵי בֵּית דָּוִד הַשְּׁלֵמִים הַכְּשֵׁרִים שֶׁמֵּתוּ. וְלֹא הֶעֱמִידוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא אֶלָּא לְנַסּוֹת בּוֹ רַבִּים, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר “וּמִן הַמַּשְׂכִּילִים יִכָּשְׁלוּ לִצְרוֹף בָּהֶן וּלְבָרֵר וְלַלְבֵּן עַד עֵת קֵץ כִּי עוֹד לַמּוֹעֵד”.
But, if he does not succeed in these matters or is killed, we will know that he was not the one Torah has promised. He is (merely to be considered) like all the (other) exemplary and qualified kings of the House of David who have died. G-d set him up only to try the masses, as it says, “And some of the wise will stumble, to refine among them and to purify and to make white, even to the time of the end, for it is yet for the time appointed” (Daniel 11:35). Rambam malachim perek 11.
This means that if someone is bechezkas moshiach and then fails u should know that he is not anymore moshiach, but how does that mean that if someone has techiya and then fulfilled the requirements can’t be moshiach

There are some intricate parts of Halacha this is as straight forward as it gets.

I Adressed the second part of your post several times now. It says once he died they knew he wasn’t mashiach/ knew not figured not guessed not theorized not knew unless there was a second coming but knew. dead people aren’t mashiach.unless you have something further to add I will not bother to comment further.

Whatsaktome,
The thing is you’re missing the limud and context behind the statement that the “(previous) Rebbe will lead us out of exile”. If you look at the source of that statement, in Bosi L’gani yud alef, the Rebbe put a footnote corresponding to that statement to explain what was meant by it. I assume you haven’t learned it seeing as you are learning out the wrong context for the statement.

The context the Rebbe provides for the statement in the footnote is to perek yud tes (if I’m remembering correctly) of Bamidbor Rabba, and to the end of Sefer Chassidim, in both those places there’s expressed a similar idea: In Vayikra Rabba, it details a conversation between HKB”H and Moshe Rabbeinu, in which HKB”H responds to Moshe Rabbeinu’s request to go into eretz Yisroel:

אָמַר לוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְמשֶׁה בְּאֵיזֶה פָּנִים אַתָּה מְבַקֵּשׁ לִכָּנֵס לָאָרֶץ, מָשָׁל לְרוֹעֶה שֶׁיָּצָא לִרְעוֹת צֹאנוֹ שֶׁל מֶלֶךְ וְנִשְׁבֵּית הַצֹּאן, בִּקֵּשׁ הָרוֹעֶה לִכָּנֵס לַפַּלְטֵרִין שֶׁל מֶלֶךְ, אָמַר לוֹ הַמֶּלֶךְ אִם אַתְּ נִכְנַס עַכְשָׁו מַה יֹּאמְרוּ הַבְּרִיּוֹת שֶׁאַתָּה הִשְׁבֵּיתָ הַצֹּאן. אַף כָּאן אָמַר לוֹ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְמשֶׁה, שִׁבְחֲךָ הוּא שֶׁהוֹצֵאתָ שִׁשִּׁים רִבּוֹא וּקְבַרְתָּם בַּמִּדְבָּר, וְאַתְּ מַכְנִיס דּוֹר אַחֵר, עַכְשָׁיו יֹאמְרוּ אֵין לְדוֹר הַמִּדְבָּר חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, אֶלָּא תְּהֵא בְּצִדָּן וְתָבוֹא עִמָּהֶן, שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (דברים לג, כא): וַיֵּתֵא רָאשֵׁי עָם צִדְקַת ה’ עָשָׂה, לְכָךְ כְּתִיב (במדבר כ, יב): לֹא תָבִיאוּ אֶת הַקָּהָל הַזֶּה, אֶלָּא שֶׁיָּצָא עִמָּךְ.

“You will not bring this group (into the land which I have given you), rather it will enter with you.” That when moshiach comes (may it be speedily), Moshe Rabbeinu will lead his generation to greet moshiach (this is also the concept found at the end of Sefer HaChassidim). That does NOT imply that Moshe Rabbeinu will be moshiach, rather that he will help his generation meet moshiach and that they will be redeemed in his merit. That is what the Rebbe is saying with the statement you quoted, and THAT is why the Rebbe brings a minority opinion about techiya before moshiach, to explain how possibly the Rebbe RaYa”TZ ZY”A could lead his generation to greet moshiach.

This is also why the Rebbe ZY”A was constantly ADAMANT that people learn his footnotes! Because without doing so one can come to a completely mistaken understanding of the text as you did above.

Additionally, (and it shouldn’t be that it has to come to this, as the RaMBa”M is extremely clear in his loshon that once a person passes away they cannot be moshiach, including after a techiya,) the Rebbe ZY”A in his works about moshiach never implies that moshiach will be from those that passed away.

Furthermore, the Rebbe gave an entire farbrengen from mem hei about the job of a nosi once moshiach comes, which would seem to imply that once the nosi passes away, like any other tzadik they are not in the running for being moshiach.

Again, and I’ve said it before on this thread, if you would like ideas about how to keep the Rebbe ZY”A relevant in your life without twisting halacha and manipulating yourself, I would be more than happy to farbreng with you privately.

Perhaps I should count my blessings. What your saying isn’t kefira. It prob isn’t even an issur of Navi sheker. It is simply an inability to read a rambam honestly resulting in a misunderstanding of Halacha. All things considered that great!

Kerevelheint once again thank you for being reasonable and normal. And thank you for doing so from a Lubavitch perspective.

I actually did not know that about the footnote, thx for telling me, but i still think that the rambam doesn’t negate the possibility of someone to have techiya and be moshiach. The rambam says that if he died we know for sure that he is not the promised one, but rambam dosen’t say that he can’t become the promised one later if he has techiya, rather rambam is saying that he is for sure not the one the Torah promised as of now

Either way it doesn’t really matter, there is no chiyuv of speculating who moshiach will be etc mo matter how you read the rambam, The main thing is to do Torah and mitzvos etc to bring moshiach

@Whatsaktome That’s not a shitta held of by a single authority outside of modern Chabad.

“Why would somebody believe the rabbi shneerson is mashiach? You don’t have to believe that.it isn’t complicated .i and certainly won’t believe anyone is mashiach until they fulfill all of requirements listed in the rambam.”

That is quite the Catch 22. So when a Ben David arises to be king and he says to you lets go fight the wars of Hashem and build the Beis Hamikdash you will tell him, “listen buddy, I won’t believe you are Moshiach until after you fulfill all of the requirements,” and therefore there never will be a Moshiach and there never will be a building of the Beis Hamikdash R”L

5ish – I hear your point, but, it isn’t really fair to say that because we are questioning the claim that your rebbe qualifies for moshiach, that we will have any trouble at all recognizing that the one who reveals himself following the blowing of the shofar and the announcement by moshiach ben Yosef. That was a bit immature of a connection and not quite up to your standard here.

I already addressed that previously, for a select few there could be techiyas hamiasim, not for all the yidden because that will happen after moshiach comes,

Please see the Rambam Hilchos Malachim. Anything not mentioned by the Rambam is not al pi halacha and will not necessarily happen. The Rambam describes a very natural process of the Messianic redemption. If someone will not accept a Messianic candidate to some extent without him already building the Bais Hamikdosh, or waiting for all manner of miraculous signs (which the Rambam says will not necessarily happen), then Moshiach cannot come according to that person in the way described by the Rambam. Such a worldview is kefira.

My comments have nothing to do with mine or anyone’s beliefs regarding the messianic claims or identities of any individual. I am mere commenting on a heretical comment above.

Rambam writes in Hilchos Melachim

ואם יעמוד מלך מבית דויד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדויד אביו כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה ויכוף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה וילחם מלחמות ה’ הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח

According to the false logic above, no candidate would even get to even Chezkas Moshiach because as soon as he tried to rally support for his cause you would have people saying, “I won’t believe you are Moshiach until AFTER you build the Bais Hamikdash.”

II would hope that l’chol hapachus if one of the Gedolei HaTorah was a Ben David and claimed to be a messianic candidate that someone wouldn’t laugh and be dismissive because if so then they don’t really believe it is possible for Moshiach to come.

And again, I repeat, according to Halacha there is no need for an announcement by Eliyahu HaNavi, Moshiach ben Yosef, no flying eagles or men on donkeys etc etc etc.

Again it is not a knee jerk reaction. I am not accusing the people are large at not being able to recognize Moshiach when he comes, and certainly not as a result of any tainos anyone has on the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
My comment was directed to one person’s comment which smack of heresy.

I do not know “all you learnt” but it sounds like you are misinformed if you believe exclusively that Bayis Shlishi will not be built by the Jewish people. The Rambam writes b’ferush and l’halacha that there is nothing supernatural about the Messianic era and that Moshiach is not required to perform any miracles or wonders. Yes there are others who differ and there may be ways to reconcile them, but that does not change that the halachic opinion of one of the preeminent rishonim and poskim in history holds that it is entirely possible that all of the Redemption will transpire in a completely natural way.

Whether or not he will say he is Moshiach cannot be known one way or the other as that is not something discussed in Halachic sources. As far as your contention that he will be a Gadol who will do those things, that was exactly my whole point. A Gadol getting up and doing those things is akin to a bid for Messianic candidacy. But according to the logic of the post I was criticizing, one would not recognize the bid or claim to messianic candidacy until after the fact. Therefore, nothing would get done. A King would arise in Israel and say, let us fight the wars of Israel, and return the Holy Land, and Build the Beis Hamikdash,” and such a person would answer, “Nah, first you build the Beis Hamikdash and then I will believe you are Moshiach.”

I agree with you that we don’t know how things will happen. My point is I don’t think it is difficult to conceptualize. Let me present a theoretical scenario. There is a big Baal teshuva movement. Religious Jews also will have many more kids. All or almost all of Israel becomes frum. They elect a gadol as a prime minister. He fights political and strategic wars. Then after fulfilling all conditions, he announces he is mashiach.

5ish, I will not even dignify your posts with a response, other than this one.