- This topic has 87 replies, 31 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 1 month ago by .
-
Posts
-
Someone I know became afraid of leaving the house because of the danger of the streets and rarely went out. This person became obese and had all sorts of health problems. It turned out that being inside was many times more dangerous than facing the world.
It may seem that being fearful of places like libraries and staying out of them is the safest thing to do. But like the person who tried to hide from life found out, sometimes it is best to develop the strength to face life’s dangers.
No, I wasn’t afraid. I love them!
By the time a child is reading on a 3rd or 4th grade level, it is difficult for a parent to know what is in the library books they will take out (fiction especially). I have checked over and allowed books my child wanted to borrow while at the library, only to find when we were home that I missed pages that were very objectionable.
Ben Torah,
No, I became frum as an adult. Having seen the competing philosophies makes me more confident in the Truth of HaShem’s Torah. Judaism has nothing to fear.
Another reason to read secular literature: One of the gedolim of our generation is Rabbi Dr. Aharon Lichtenstein. He frequently cites examples from modern literature, history, and philosophy to make Torah points. If you’ve never heard of Milton or Blake or Newman you won’t understand the depth of his Torah.
Note that the people I just mentioned were RELIGIOUS writers yet Rav Lichtenstein still uses them for Torah!
Don’t assume that just because a book is “heimishe” that it’s good for your child. I’ve read a few of these “frum” books and the plots are straight out of secular thrillers, with a yarmulke and some davening thrown in to “kosherize” them. One had sadistic violence of a sort that made even me as an adult uncomfortable, kal v’chomer a child. Inflicting gratuitous pain is inflicting gratuitous pain, even if the perpetrator is a Mossad agent.
There’s no shortcut. You’ve got to read what your kids are reading before they do, even if it’s gotten good “kosher” reviews. And let’s not forget the “kosher” DVD’s with thriller plots. Are Mossad agents the role models we want for our children?
By all means take your kids to the local library, but stay with them and read what they bring home.
EH, then I would suggest that you ask the librarian to assist you and give you a list, then start reading them and cross off anything from the list that you find objectionable and allow your kids to read anything on the list that you found OK. If you start when the kids are young, you will be way ahead of them and you can keep the lists as the kids get older so you don’t have to repeat this process for your younger kids, just keep going and add books to the list as your kids get older.
Keep the lists as per age order, you can even divide the lists and share it with a friend or family member so you can get through a lot more books. And since you and your peers can read a lot faster than your kids, you can cover a lot of ground in a very short period of time.
I went into a local seforim/Judaica store last weekend and asked them to make a list according to the publishers or with the publishers help of books according to age. Since when I as a grandparent and parents come into the store to shop for age appropriate books and we have no clue which books are recommended for which age, we usually just get frustrated and walk out, it would be so much more convenient to have a printed guide to follow and choose from.
I haven’t read through this thread so I hope I’m not restating something. As a side suggestion, why can’t large frum communities create their own library, purchase a basement or appropriate facility, buy a few thousand books, and get a librarian.
Yes, the libraries just simply cannot keep up with the demand for Milton, Blake, and Newman in the young adult sections of libraries across the country 😉
Question being, what did R’ Aharon read for fun (not that he was being frivolous necessarily, I mean during his own time), and for school (counting high school, electives in university, etc. as school)?
R’ Aharon Kotler read Tolstoy.
Offen in Making of a Gadol.
BT: Incorrect.
Ben Torah:
I’d think that the son of Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky is more reliable in knowing what his father, and his contemporaries, did read (which he has references as well) than a number of Rabbonim who banned the book without actually reading it (all but one Rav, Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, who banned the book were/are unable to read english).
If Making of a Gadol is “completely unreliable,” why ban it? That would be kind of like telling your child not to read a book that says the sky is made of cotton candy – it would be so absurd that there would be no reason to ban it, and banning it would just give the absurdity some legitimacy.
Perhaps the “gedolim” banned the book because it is reliable but presents a perspective on talmidei chachamim that they would prefer we not see. Ah, back to the begining – the parent of all klal yisrael doing us a great tova by protecting our fragile minds and hearts from improper influences by restricting our access to certain books. No wonder some would seek to ban our children from libraries.
Ben Torah
Member
Making of a Gadol was banned by the Gedolim shlita, and hence is completely unreliable.
Reply: Actually that is the best testament to its reliability. But be that as it may, this conversation has easily dovetailed into the issue of appropriate supervision of our children; an age old dilemma. How do parents teach their children to be independent people, and still protect them from harm until they develop good judgment? As Will Rogers put it: “I got my good judgment from experience. I got my experience from bad judgment.” I don’t think there is a universal answer. But I think any answer begins with two basic premises: 1. Know your children. Make an honest assessment of who your kids are, what are their individual strengths and weaknesses. Do what you can to amplify the strengths, as it is those characteristics that provide the basis for good judgment. At the same time, make your children aware of their weaknesses in a way that enables them to manage them. The key to this is communication. Your children can only learn from you if they feel safe “failing” in front of you. My son, when he was about 7 or 8 years old, once went to a friend’s house and they were playing on the computer. Somehow they innocently stumbled upon an adult site, looked at it briefly decided it was “yucky” and moved on. When he came home he told me about it, asking why anyone would want to go to such a “stupid web page.” It gave me and my wife a perfect opportunity to teach him something about human dignity and tzniyut. The key to imparting the message was to not get angry that he saw something we would have preferred he not see. We had a decent talk about things and that was that. Will the message have to be repeated when he enters his teen years and his perspective on such things changes? Of course it will; probably many times. But hopefully we’ve laid a bit of a foundation to do so. And while I am very concerned for the future, I have to set boundaries for myself too. The only way my kids will feel secure in approaching me with such issues, is if they know I’m not looking under their mattresses behind their backs. Be forthright with your kids. Their trust is not a G-d given right. It’s a privilege to be earned. 2. Lead by example. You don’t want your kids looking at certain websites, reading certain types of literature or watching certain types of television programs, refrain from them yourself. Kids hate hypocrites, and hate hypocritical parents most of all.
You throw around the term “the gedolim” like politicians talk of “the people” and activist federal judges speak of “the public interest.” You take an amorphous unidentifiable collective body and personify it by using terms like “shlita” which refers to an identifiable individual, and then use that fiction to prop up your personal views. Your not the first to do it, and I am certain you wont be the last.
BTW, whose “gedolim” are you voting for? obviously not mine; i guess they must be yours. Who are they exactly? what is the basis for their superior authority to my own gedolim, or my own knowledge of the relevant issues? Do they have to demonstrate their superior scholarship, or do you just assume it? what is the basis for this assumption; the color of their coat; the length of their beard; their language; their place of residence; how many things they can assur; how many things they can mattir?
Just wondering . . .
Reply: Actually that is the best testament to its reliability.
That was going to be my point as well.
BT: Know what, I’ll play a little.
Why did the “Gedolim” (who banned the book without actually reading it, on the insistance of some people)(who excluded Rav Zelik Epstien & Rav Shternbuch, who both supported the book) ban the book?
The Gedolim who banned it apparently didn’t like some of the things mentioned about Reb Aharon specifically, which apparently they had been told about what it said. I believe there was another Gadol as well who had some comments, which weren’t appreciated. I believe they considered those maasim to show lack of kavod.
My personal suggestion is to ask one of the Rabbonim who make those statements in person to get a clear understanding of what their opinion is, and abide by it.
My brother specifically asked Rav Sheinberg about the Shteinsaltz Gemoras, and he told him what was inappropriate, and why he banned it.
The problem is that most kids are not going to libraries to read Dickens, poetry, or classic literature, or books that expand their knowledge and love of HaShem and His maaseh bereshis. They are going to generally read trashy-silly fiction books and scary books, which lack real value except maybe having fun. However, many of these books probably have corrupting elements in them, such as books girls read talking about crushes, dating, fashion, etc., things repugnant to what we want for our bnos yisroel. If kids wanted to learn about the presidents, or oceanography, or things of that nature, this would be a different story, and I don’t think we would see any complaints.
aries-
In answer to your question, no, I do not take my children to malls, nor do I shop there myself. I try not to frequent pharmacies that sell inappropriate magazines but rather the smaller ones that do not.
I fully concur that educating children and keeping communication open is important. My children know that our goal is to keep our neshamos pure; hence our avoidance of places which may sidetrack us and are not necessitated by our daily activities.
We try to avoid setting ourselves up for potential failure, and we try hard to make it easier for ourselves and our children to live spiritually successful lives.
Rav Michael Yehuda Lefkowitz as well banned it.
Well now Ben Torah, ten whole names! The names of ten chareidi poskim living in Eretz Yisrael, many of whom cant read English! Yup, that definitely covers the full gamut of “gedolim” in my book; case closed.
They are certainly “gedolim” (I really despise that term, it says absolutely nothing about the people to which it refers and admits no objective definition that may be used to evaluate the appropriateness of its being used), but I am just not sure why, to be a Torah-observant Jew, they must be MY “gedolim” (again, does the term imply my posek; my advice-giving mashgiach; my business and financial advisor; a scholar; a tzaddik; a communal leader?).
Since when am I, living in the United States bound by halachah to follow the words of poskim living in another country? Did the Jews of Eastern Europe follow the rulings of the Chief Rabbi of England; did misnagdim no assur the shechita of chassidim in the 1700s, though the Rebbes obviously held it was desirable; did the chassidim follow the Vilna Gaon; did Spanish Jewry follow the Rosh? Did French Jewry follow the Rif?
Your claim to universal “gedolim” that can bind everyone is fallacious at best.
So I ask again, what makes your “gedolim” THE “gedolim” that everyone must follow for everything? Do you presume to pass judgement on the qualification of R’ Elyashiv as compared to R’ Belsky or R’ Shachter? Certainly you, who views us little laypeople as so small, insignificant and incapable of independent thought should not be making such determinations.
At least I have the sense to allow you to follow your poskim while I follow mine – I dont claim to determine who’s are correct. In fact, eilu v’eilu divrei elokim chaim, and each may follow his own approach so long as it does not violate a clear Torah proscription. (See Taz, Choshen Mishpat, siman 2). You on the other hand have the remarkable ability to determine that certain views are divrei elokim, while others are not. Bravo! I am certain God Himself will be much grateful to you for effectively determining which approach is really the one He wants us following. Well Done!
GAW –
Where do you get the chutzpa to insinuate the “Gedolim” did not know the content of the book before their action, or that they are bumbling fools or lackeys of ANYONE? Are they only qualified to rule on material written in Hebrew, in your humble opinion on what they may and may not do?
Are you sure you need to put quotation marks around “Gedolim” when referring to these sages? Which ones of the aforementioned do you question their status?
BT:
I noticed that you didn’t answer the question posed. I will not respond to your insults, as I don’t really care what you think of me.
When you are ready to have a conversation, I hope to still be here.
I will say that RSRH does have a good point regarding “Gedolim” (in the abstract, not to mean anyone specific).
If a book of apikorsus is written in Italian, only an Italian speakinggodol can ban it?
(I’m not alluding to any specific book.)
That most certainly is not the case.
He has a right to accept the interpertation of his trusted advisors. And who are you or I to question who a godol hador trusts. Especially since you dont know the advisor firsthand like the godol.
A godol is a godol b’yisroel; not “your” godol or “my” godol.
BTW, Rav Belsky has been the first to be moida that Rav Elyashev is his greater.
TT,
It seems that YOU have it all worked out for your children for the moment. However, as your children grow up and go outside all by themselves, if they are armed with your guidance will they make the same choices as you? Will they choose the small pharmacy and avoid the mall? Will they walk past the magazine and book racks? If you explained to them why YOU are doing it, they probably would. If you didn’t they might not.
Thanks. Which point do you refer to? I tend to make many points in a single post – my tendency to ramble. (Oops, there I go again!)
RSRH:
Israeli Gedolim’s Psakim don’t always apply to America.
Its not your idea, its (HaGadol) Rav Reuven Feinstein who said so.
Helpful:
Perhaps you are aware why the book was banned (if it really was banned).
It was banned because it was disrespectful towards Gedolei Yisroel.
What a godol did in his youth, prior to reaching his gadlus, is not necessarily fit to print. We all stumbled in our lives, gedolim included.
1: So even the signers admit that it is true, but they don’t want others to know about it. As such, you retract your statement that “its not reliable because it was banned”. Fair enough.
2: Seemingly, that is a Machlokes between the current “Ultra Orthodox” (for lack of a better term) and the Torah, which does not at any time omit the failings of our leaders.
3: Besides, Rav Aharon was not embarassed that he read it, and did not see having read Tolstoy to be a problem (as he mentioned this once BMG started (IIRC)). As such, I see this (at best) as a Machlokes between the Gedolim, with Rav Aharon Kotler on the side that would not ban.
BT: To amend what you said slightly – It was banned because certain kanayim concluded that it was disrespectful towards gedolei yisrael, and convinced certain poskim that their conclusions where correct.
Please don’t pass off so subjective a judgement as to what is and is not disrespectful as objective truth.
All things true are fit to print. Absolute truth maintains God’s creation, for without it civilization cannot stand. (Mishna, Avos 1:18; see Tur, Choshen Mishpat 1). We cannot conduct ourselves based on lessons learned from lives, half-truths, or omissions – if we do our conduct itself is inevitably flawed.
Just my view. You can believe as you wish. I just hope debate can be pursued based on logic, reason, and above all strict halacha, rather than obstinacy, blind single-mindedness, and extra-halachik chumros.
BT:
OK. Glad we agree on the main point.
Being that R’ Aharon read Tolstoy, and did not think it was a busha, seemingly he would be OK with secular books (at least when you can’t learn, such as in a Makom Tinofes).
Did R’Aharon read Tolstoy’s novels, Tolstoy’s religious writings, or both?
OK, so I took a quick look at my copy.
I couldn’t find the Tolstoy reference, but on page 305, R’ Nossan talks about how at a meeting with a number of Rabbonim in Ramle, as well as an Israeli official, the Israeli quoted Pushkin without mentioning him by name, and R’ Aharon corrected the official by saying the quote was from Pushkin.
Rav Yaakov was the one who read Tolstoy, but then again he (Rav Yaakov) is being marginalized in the Yeshivish world in general(for example, due to his insistence to have secular eduation in America through high school).
Did a search on YWN:
Jothar
Member
Making of A godol mentions how Rav Yaakov ZT”L once quoted a Tolstoy book in his shiur and was surprised that nobody was familiar with it.
Posted 1 year ago #
I wonder how many of us are going to go back to our childhood and pick up the classics now that we were reminded about them.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.