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There are so many people that have had such a bad time with their school experiences. Maybe this thread can be a support+share stories of school experiences and how you’ve dealt with them. and maybe we can save someone else from having a really bad school experience and have to live with it the rest of their lives and giving them suggestions throughout the hard times.
This is a good idea as there are people who can give/get help for their children based on real experiences. I had issues in elementary school where I didnt fit in with the class… hashkafically we were different, they weren’t as frum and careful about certain mitzvos as my family was ect. Note to parents: even if it may be difficult, dont tell your children that “one more year and then you’ll fit in” or “just get used to the place”. Really look at the school to see if it is the right fit. Just because one kid in the family fits in, the education is wonderful…just remember that there is more to a school than textbooks. While that is a major part and you should not send your kids to a place that turns out illiterate and uneducated students,pay attention to the type of kids that are in your kid’s class. Sometimes it is the class that is problematic and maybe you can switch classes for the kid. Switching schools may also be a help. But if this is not possible, make sure that your kids hang around after school with the right type of students. And have a strong home where your kids learn to say “no” and “we dont hold by that hechsher” or “we dont watch that/do that sort of thing” in a polite and proper way.
I feel that a parent has to give their child a lot of security and even if they don’t believe in certain things that other parents allow their children to do they have to be understanding and sometimes allow them to do/buy that.(as long as its reasonable) because they put their child in that school and they put them with those friends.
But really, really make sure that they are very sure of themselves.
Parents need to be involved with their children’s activities. That should resolve half the problems.
heres something i heard from rabbi dovid orlofsky. too many people are worried about sending their kids to “the best” school out there…because its a matter of their personal pride. the parent wants to be able to boast about the school his son goes to…or parade him in front of the envious neighbors…but they give very little thought to the actual needs of the child! if sending your kid to a lower level yeshiva that is not seen by the world as ” the best” then so be it! remember, the school your kid goes to has nothing to do with whats best for you. its whats best for him!
One thing to be aware of is that if you are planning to send your kid to a competitive college, it looks very bad to switch schools in the middle of HS. It is urgent to make the best decision before 9th grade so that he will be able to stick it out.
My personal gripe is that I have yet to see a single school with top notch Kodesh and top notch Chol departments. Most Chareidi schools make a joke out of English, either by ending school so late that there is no time or energy left to do any serious studying of Chol, or by denigrating it outright, or by hiring Rebbes to teach Chol subjects which they are not prepared to do, and also by not having adequate lab facilities for basic knowledge of a subject, let alone advanced research.
Last Shabbos I saw on the wall of a child who goes to a modern school a 10th grade chem test in which he did well, and one question said, this is from last lab. Also the name of the teacher was Dr. So-and-so. I wryly commented to my wife, in my kid’s school the teacher’s name would have been exactly the same except he would have been Rabbi So-and-so. I am so aggravated it is beyond words. We let talented kids emerge completely behind their modern counterparts in Chol. And let alone behind kids coming from schools like Stuyvesant HS which have online course catalogs that make one weep. We are literally creating the next generation who will not be able to make a parnasa in this high tech world.
And BTW, high-tech does not mean owning an Ipod or Iphone, any more than owning a car makes one an expert in mechanical engineering. Most kids haven’t a clue what goes into their gadgets or how they work. Most cannot build even the simplest circuit beyond a battery and lightbulb, or the simplest chemical reaction beyond vinegar and baking soda.
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um…well…you would need a trade or technical school to learn that stuff…and we are talking about high school…but i agree. limudei chol is taken as a joke in frum schools. SO MUCH SO THAT IN MY NINTH GRADE CLASS…PEOPLE WOULD ACTUALLY THROW ORANGE PEELS AT THE TEACHER!!! EVEN THOUGH HE WAS FRUM!!! WHERE IS THE DERECH ERETZ???
I am talking about regular chem, physics and bio on an advanced level. Same with advanced math and computer programming.
you want advanced chem bio math and programming to be taught in high schools?? sheesh…well, even in public where the whole budget goes to secular studies, those are optional…or on an honors track…heres how it worked where i went. we learned what we needed for the regents. then, we had the option to take a course in microsoft office. later, we had the option of taking calculus. i dont know if you mean that the advanced stuff should be mandatory or not…but think about it this way. first of all…a public school has a bigger budget. second of all, they have nothing to spend that budget on [strong]BUT[/strong] more programs. third of all, as important as secular studies (and it is important…), you still need to leave time for limudei kodesh. it is after all a yeshiva…the emphasis must be on limudei kodesh. if its the education offered at Stuyvesant you’re after…then go there.
PY:
Advanced classes cost money for supplies & teachers. The schools have made the decision not to pay for these, and therefore have lower tuition.
I also think that the boys schools in the five towns (specificly DRS of which I know a little about, but others to a lesser extent), as well as a number of the girls schools there, do allow a child to prepare themselves for excellence in both/either Kodesh or Chol (to use your terms). The costs are also more than triple what has been posted for an average brooklyn school (for DRS).
Where I am, the boys yeshiva HS do not have “Chol” up to the level that I would like, but at least the schools do take it seriously enough that a graduate has the ability (if they apply themselves in HS) to go to a normal college if they so desire.
Gavra: In the five towns, some of the kids go to a superb summer program at Stony Brook University run by a frum husband and wife team of professors where they get a chance to do real top-notch research. However, this is far away from where most of the frum kids live, and also is in a coed environment which some parents may object to. I am not at all sure that even places like DRS or SKA have their own facilities for it. If there were programs like this offered in-house within the Yeshiva high schools, it would be unbelievable. I realize it costs a lot of money, but this is the best investment the community can make for the future.
BTW, not all science projects are expensive, and one can learn a tremendous amount on a tight budget, if you only have a knowledgeable teacher.
In general, I think the girls HS have better Chol programs than the boys do. However, they still merely try to meet Regents standards except for the AP classes. The Regents have been terribly watered down lately in the Sciences and are almost worthless. I have noticed that the Math Regents have not been watered down, though, and have actually added some new topics that were not there when I was in school, such as probability, and rotations/reflections, etc.
PY: Once again, it is the choice of many schools not to spend money that they will never be able to raise back. This may be due to poor alumni connections, but (mostly?) due to many of the HS themselves pushing the students not to get a high earning (i.e. college/masters educated) job, and the parents not really caring either.
I am not familliar with the programs you mention, but it sounds like something DRS would encourage.
i was talking to my chavrusa last night about this and he brought up a good point. for all the supposed disadvantages that frum schools have, frum kids score in the top margins on standardized tests. we have fewer distractions in our school environment to take our focus off our studies. that being said, MaKesher brings up an excellent point. the lack of derech eretz in frum schools is astounding. one major problem, is that secular studies is seen by many of the students as beneath their dignity. they want to learn all day, and that is admirable but there is a time for everything. and even if if secular studies is useless pointless and a waste of time, that doesnt mean that the teachers, who are only doing their job, have to take abuse for it.
MaKesher:
What do you mean by “today’s society”?
I disagree, Algebra and Geometry are used more than you think. Besides, how would you learn certain Gemaras and Tosfos in Sukka and Eruvin for example without knowledge of Geom. and Trig? Science certainly has practical real-world value e.g. how cleaning agents work, what happens if one were to mix ammonia and bleach. History can help one understand the viewpoint of a Rishon or Achron if you understand the time and environment they lived in. These are just a few examples off the top of my head.
Icanonlytry: The point of high school education if for nothing else, is to get a diploma. Without the requisite courses determined by the accrediting body, all the school can offer is a piece of paper NOT a diploma. No diploma, no college options, no college…..
MaKesher:
“With today’s society in mind, what can be done about the low level of academics and Derech Eretz being shown in many schools?”
HOME RUN!!!
What is needed is very simple. The school must have administration who BELIEVES in education. The administration must enforce derech eretz in the afternoon as much as they enforce it with the Judaic Studies. If the English Principal doesn’t believe in the quality of services offered, he is the wrong one for the job. If the English Principal is too scared to discipline the donor’s or board member’s child, he should be terminated.
I have always been against the wealthy parents bailing their kids out of trouble caused by misbehavior. This feeds right into their ego and belief that they can weazle out of more serious things in life. By not educating your child to the norms of societal behaviors, you are teaching how to be a crook later in life where the stakes for bad behaviors are much steeper.
^yeah that. Icanonlytry: science brings true understanding of ma rabu maasecha hashem, why cut it? history is very important. we have to know why things happen, how government was formed, how cobnflicts were created the resolved…al this is very imoportant! it is important to know about our world.
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Artchill: “I have always been against the wealthy parents bailing their kids out of trouble caused by misbehavior.”
The parents or the kids? The parents have the right if they so choose (any different than George W.?) as they pay for it, and the kids don’t know better.
And you are correct, that the English department is at best ignored, if not denegrated, by the Hebrew department, and that is also a cause of the lack of derech eretz.
And in many schools outside NY, nothing is mandatory. Wasn’t there something recently about Lakewood yeshivos that they will stop teaching english subjects after fifth or sixth grade?
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suppose a kid is not such a ba’al kishron? suppose he will need to go to college to get a job? why rob him of his future?
Just to clarify:
I am by no means suggesting that parents pull their kids out of required courses which are mandated by the board of ed.
I am advocating for a change in the required courses.
Counterpoints to dissenters may follow (OK, probably will follow) later. This is just a clarification.
wow! thats not gonna happen…
ICOT, in this world, and in the near future, science and math will be the most essential to make a parnasa. For years people relied on the stock market and thought it was a magic faucet which rained down money. Now they realize that many of the big players are out of work, simply because it is no different than betting on horses. What value have all these people in the market added? Very little, at the end of the day. They probably helped some new companies get started by buying a percentage of newly issued stock, and assisting with IPO’s, but most is pure betting.
Think about it: when a farmer plants seeds that cost 1 dollar and after hard work, he can sell produce for 100 dollars, he has created wealth. He has added value to the seeds, and can rightfully claim a portion. The baker who buys his wheat, and bakes a cake, has also added value, and can claim a portion. This is how moey is made. Or in manufacturing, a scientist figures out a new principle or way to cure a disease. he sells to a drug company, the drug company buys raw ingredients and chemicals, and uses these to make medicine. This is the way you make money, by creating products from less expensive raw ingredients. The scientists and engineers and those who work in the actual production chain are really the backbone of any company.
All these people who think they need not learn technical details, and will just finagle and wheel and deal in what others have invented or created are finding out in today’s economy it just doesn’t cut it. This is why so many of these types are ending up behind bars. Madoff knew there really isn’t magic money in the market, and the only way to get rich quick is to commit fraud.
Because of foreign competition profits are razor thin. The only way to make money is to constantly innovate. Heard from Dr. Judah Folkman A”H that in medicine, there are about 25,000 known diseases. We can cure a few hundred and manage a few hundred more. That leaves about 24,000 with no know cure. If you can cure one, you will have performed great chesed, and also will get paid well.
In Sderot, if you could find a way to shoot down missiles before they land, and blow up the terrorists automatically, you will also have done a great deed, and can make a mint on your anti-terrorism system. In the USA, if you can develop a really workable and cost-effective solar energy system, you will make a ton, and will also reduce the Arabs control over the oil economy and their influence over the world.
All these things require tons of advanced math and science. There are many science jobs out there for people with the right training. In Yeshivas we usually ignore these subjects more than all the others. That is the worst mistake we can make. Algebra, geometry, trig, calc are the aleph bais of the world of advanced technology. Bio, chem and physics will be the most valuable subjects in the future. Kids also need grounding in English as you mention, since companies don’t like to hire illiterate and sloppy people. Social studies is important in understanding how govt works and the history of conflicts between nations and how the economic and legal systems that we use have developed.
When you work for a corporation as an accountant, that is an important skill and service. But that is really indirect as far as the company goes. If you can develop a way for them to make a new product, or make an old one much cheaper, that is how they make their money to pay the accountants. They value this much more, since that is their oxygen. They can’t survive if another company comes out with a better or cheaper product, but they can survive if their accountant leaves, since they can just hire a different one who will do the same thing.
Chiddush is the most important thing, and that requires technology. All the other roles are secondary and replaceable. I am not trying to insult accountants or any other profession, chas vshalom, as the world needs them all, and people have different talents. There are many brilliant accounting experts in the frum world. I am just saying that one’s best chance today is to try to be able to innovate because any fixed, repetitive skill can become obsolete or replaced by other humans or even computers.
If you think that the level of English education should be left “as is” then please look at the quality of posts on YWN. Some are written in an enlightening way and are clearly understandable. But, on the most part, the younger, yeshivish/frum population do not know how to read, write and think critically. They are unable to do basic math and are stalled by the most basic of basic science and history questions. I have stepped foot into a middle school Chol classroom and was appalled by what I saw hanging on the wall. The students were asked a question and had to respond in paragraph form. Firstly, the spelling, punctuation, and grammar were atrocious! The teacher corrected them but did not make the students re-write it or lower their grades because of it. Additionally, 99% of the students all wrote the same exact response to the topic. Obviously, the teacher had told them what to write and then they all copied it word for word. This needs to be rectified. Yes, they do not have to be able to analyze War and Peace. But we do need more emphasis on the basics. We are doing a big disservice to our children otherwise. How else can they work in the real world if they cannot read and write?
“How else can they work in the real world if they cannot read and write?”
Perhaps that is exactly why what you saw is being done.
It has already happened in EY, there is no reason why we should think it is not being implemented in the US.
Perhaps someone here can explain something to me. The only reason we learn things is for their practical use, otherwise they are useless? In that case, we should not learn anything about geography or history- and that would INCLUDE Jewish history, because it serves no practical purpose. I thought the purpose of going to school was to become educated so that we could live as functioning members of society. As Jews we are proud of our history, so why should we not know at least the BASICS of American history? Perhaps show just a BIT of gratitude towards the country that, until now, has welcomed us.
As for English, well….just read many of the posts on ANY Jewish website, and you will see (if you have a good command of grammar and the English language) that basic skills such as spelling and proper grammar are sorely lacking.
Where I grew up, at least 50% of the public school children graduated as functioning illiterates- that means that they could get by, but they are for all intents and purposes illiterate. I want my children to be better than that, and I plan on sending my children to a school that has a VERY good secular department as well as a very good Judaic studies department, and I will demand a solid education for them.
Thanks to those who responded.
This is an instance where I was hoping to hear opposing points of view and their reasons.
To address people in order:
Mayan_Dvash–
Besides, how would you learn certain Gemaras and Tosfos in Sukka and Eruvin for example without knowledge of Geom. and Trig?
Science certainly has practical real-world value e.g. how cleaning agents work, what happens if one were to mix ammonia and bleach
artchill-
bombmaniac-
I think your responses were based on a misunderstanding, which hopefully was clarified.
Pashuteh Yid–
2) Blue-collar work and the manufacturing industry are somewhat better. They take an existing raw product and improve it, for a visible tangible benefit. (Obviously, they need to start with an existing product, since only H-shem can make something from nothing). There is some profit to be made from their labor.
3) Scientists, inventors and innovators perform the most valuable work of all. It is thanks to them that certain diseases have been mostly or wholly eradicated, the average lifespan has been greatly increased, and the quality of life is improved dramatically. We are not living in primitive huts on Eurasia thanks to scientific advances. There is big money to be made in this field. Job security is a nice fringe-benefit of this profession.
Responses:
3) Our standard of living and quality of life is incomparable to what existed as recently as 100 years ago, and this is almost wholly due to science, invention and innovation.
4) Yes back-office workers (or janitors) are more replaceable than top R&D scientists.
I am in total agreement with you about the importance of scientific research and innovation.
havesomeseichel–
[it]
anonymrs-
The only reason we learn things is for their practical use, otherwise they are useless?
1) No, but the only reason we should be compelled to learn something is for its practical use.
2) Except as a mental exercise (which I will concede math is) or for fun, yes, that does fit the definition of useless learning.
In that case, we should not learn anything about geography or history – and that would INCLUDE Jewish history, because it serves no practical purpose.
1) I explained above that there are good reasons for learning history (at least certain aspects of it).
2) As I stated earlier, this is not frum-centric.
As Jews we are proud of our history, so why should we not know at least the BASICS of American history? Perhaps show just a BIT of gratitude towards the country that, until now, has welcomed us.
3) As stated above, this not frum-centric.
As for English, well….just read many of the posts on ANY Jewish website, and you will see (if you have a good command of grammar and the English language) that basic skills such as spelling and proper grammar are sorely lacking.
2) Hatzlocha raba.
you say that you views are non denominational. for jews this is all well and good…we can all (ideally) learn all day. goyim however dont have that option what would they do? after high school go to 4 EXTRA years of college because their high school education was bare bones??? your idea is completely impractical, and childish. also, aside from goyim, jews too have to get jobs. high paying jobs. first of all because we have big families, and second of all, because kollelim thrive on donors. if we all are sitting in kolel because when we get into college we fall behind, who will support the kollelim? ela mai…you say if people want that kind of education in college…college is tedious enouigh without having to learn high school material.
as for science, yes. let’s open that can of worms. there is nothing wrong with the learning of science. absolutely nothing. there is something wrong with SCIENTISTS not science. learning in intricate detail, about how everything works together so perfectly, and so mathematically exact, makes a person appreciate mah rabu maasecha hashem. the only problem with science would be they way it is presented. if it is presented from the point of view that god is a completely arbitrary entity and not to be understood, and therefore if you do understand why things happen…that disproves god, then yes! science is wrong! if however you simply learn how perfect our world, and how things work and why they work, and how hashem set our world in motion and keeps it in motion, it can be an incredible boost to your emunah.
bombmaniac-
What we have here is a failure to communicate.
1) My points have nothing to do with learning in kollel vs. working.
2) There is no distinction made between Jews and non-Jews.
Please take the time to read and understand a post before responding to it. Every single point made in your most recent response was based on an incorrect or incomplete understanding of what I was saying. Perhaps I could have written my post more clearly.
I know there are posters here who have careers which require advanced math and/or scientific knowledge.
There are also posters who hold a Ph.D in one or the other of these subjects.
What are their (your) thoughts on this topic?
I know there are posters here who have careers which require advanced math and/or scientific knowledge.
What are their (your) thoughts on this topic?
I hold an advanced scientific degree
my thoughts?
i think we are in this world of preparation and purification of our Neshama for a very very short time. this is not a nice theoretical thought. this is the meaning of our lives. this is THE Emes.
i think we should not spend it in an environment of pritzus, letzonus, kalus rosh, apikorsus and tumah
feivel-
Welcome back.
It’s always nice to hear from you, and I agree with everything you said.
Your additions to the “Nifla’os ha’borai” thread are missed.
But…
…now that we have your attention, what’s your opinion re: the matter at hand?
“I know there are posters here who have careers which require advanced math and/or scientific knowledge.”
BS”D
That would be me.
i think we are in this world of preparation and purification of our Neshama for a very very short time. this is not a nice theoretical thought. this is the meaning of our lives. this is THE Emes.
i think we should not spend it in an environment of pritzus, letzonus, kalus rosh, apikorsus and tumah
Therefore…….. Feivel will support me in Kollel & pay my full tuition so that I can learn in peace 🙂
What I really think is that people need to make a serious cheshbon if they are really “learning” or just sitting, and how they intend to contribute to Klall Yisroel via their learning. If they will make a significant contribution, than the Kesef Mishna applies and they should only learn (and don’t need any additional Chol).
However, to decide what each boy (or girl) will be doing for the rest of their lives (parnassah, advanced studies or not) at the age of 14 is a disaster, unless what I posted earlier is true and the gedolim are pushing the Khal into a state of dependency on purpose (similar to what happened in EY) in order to force boys to stay in learning. If they are, who are we to argue?
So my short answer to ICOT is no, but only to allow someone to decide to become a doctor, engineer, etc. if they so desire, and not to decide before high school to limit our children.
Shalom aleichem icot (why do we say that in the plural?)
i knew you would agree
i cant really answer your question without changing my perspective
but id like to say that, in general, for an erlich Yid:
the more science the better, but one first has to have a very deep Emunah, science can be dangerously misleading
history has been filtered with such bias and constructed with such falsehood, speculation, and lack of information that it is close to and sometimes worse than worthless.
math, i think especially in the higher forms can be illuminating, even if not practically useful
english, grammar is very helpful, even important, but literature is equal to television in its power of removing one from Hashem.
i know i didnt really address your points, hopefully youll get some better responses.
ICOT, I appreciate your thought out responses to my post. I happen to have an advanced degree in science so I am a bit biased about the importance of science. But, in general, as you acknowledge, science has improved our lives immensely, and as others have noted, it can bring one to a feeling of Ahavas Hashem. There is nothing like trying to develop new insights in an area which may benefit people who suffer from certain illnesses. The chochma of the human body is beyond any description. There are zillions of cells, and each has zillions of molecules and each has many atoms, and they are all put together in a way that everything must fit perfectly, and one error can cause major catastrophe. We don’t fully understand the fundamental forces which all of these components exert on each other and cause everything to work right. And we don’t even know the structure and mechanism of many of the proteins that perform so many essential tasks.
This is why I say science is a wide open field. The potential for innovation is so vast, nobody will ever have to worry that there is nothing left to discover. (Although any discovery takes huge effort and siyata deshmaya.) I feel kids must have the most advanced education possible.
I agree with Anonymrs that it is essential to have a good Kodesh and Chol education. However, the sad fact is that it usually is one or the other. This causes me no end of aggravation. I also agree that kids should learn all different subjects so they can choose for themselves what interests them the most and see where their talents lie. This includes art and music as well, as some kids may be gifted in those areas.
BTW, not all literature is bad, and much is inspiring and is about the goodness of the world and the people that inhabit it.
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Since ICOT asked…I’ll submit my thoughts. I have a master’s degree–in science! (actually engineering, but I used to listen to a radio program that included this line).
I think that it would be nice if more schools could offer AP courses, but that isn’t realistic. What is realistic, and important, is to expect all schools offering chol subjects to teach the basic high school classes properly. This means clarifying to students that the chol teachers and subjects are deserving of their time, attention, and best efforts, even if they can’t–and shouldn’t–spend as much time on these subjects as their public school peers.
I do believe that students should know basic historical facts. No, they don’t need to know when Lincoln was elected to Congress, but they should know the facts about his presidency and the Civil War (especially because in some ways this country is still living with its aftereffects). If historical accounts are sometimes subject to falsehood and speculation as feivel argues, that’s all the more reason to teach students the facts, so they’ll recognize when someone is trying to deceive them.
I think the currently required high school classes will give students a basic grounding in math and science as well. As GAW noted, this will make it possible for students who choose to attend college to major in math/engineering/medicine without requiring semesters of remedial work. Also, this will allow students interested in college to get a glimpse of different areas of study, so they can understand which ones they are well-suited for.
Even those who have no intention of attending college can benefit from basic knowledge these classes can offer. Most of us in our daily routines are confronted with various scientific & mathematical claims: “Vaccines cause autism!” or “You can double your money in a year by investing in my fund!” A basic knowledge of math and science gives one the tools to critically evaluate this sort of information.
Leaving the issue of studying literature, it’s essential for students to learn how to read, write, and think clearly and coherently. Others have noted that many posters on message boards don’t write coherently, but what’s alarming is that a sizable minority don’t seem to think clearly or understand what they’re reading.
Thanks again, for the additional responses.
I appreciate those who took time to consider the question and then think out and write their answer / opinion.
Replies in order:
feivel–
Shalom aleichem icot (why do we say that in the plural?)
I never thought of that. Possibly to keep the greeting consistent whether addressing an individual or a group? In case someone is hiding behind be?
(Aleichem shalom.)
gavra_at_work–
If I understand you correctly, your point is that doctors, engineers, scientists, geologists, and others whose fields are heavily dependent on advanced math and science would not have made the career choice they did if not for the mandatory H.S. curriculum. Although the number of students choosing those fields is a minority, those professions are important enough to warrant the inclusion and retention of the H.S. math and science subjects.
Pashuteh Yid–
The potential for innovation is so vast, nobody will ever have to worry that there is nothing left to discover.
I assume you disagree with the statement supposedly made by the U.S. Patent Commissioner in 1899 that, “Everything that can be invented has been invented.”
I agree with Anonymrs that it is essential to have a good Kodesh and Chol education. However, the sad fact is that it usually is one or the other.
When I was in HS (sometime last century) there were several yeshivos, including mine, that had reputations of taking both limudai kodesh and secular subjects seriously.
BTW, not all literature is bad, and much is inspiring and is about the goodness of the world and the people that inhabit it.
True.
anon for this–
I do believe that students should know basic historical facts. No, they don’t need to know when Lincoln was elected to Congress, but they should know the facts about his presidency and the Civil War (especially because in some ways this country is still living with its aftereffects). If historical accounts are sometimes subject to falsehood and speculation as feivel argues, that’s all the more reason to teach students the facts, so they’ll recognize when someone is trying to deceive them.
Agreed.
Most of us in our daily routines are confronted with various scientific & mathematical claims: “Vaccines cause autism!” or “You can double your money in a year by investing in my fund!” A basic knowledge of math and science gives one the tools to critically evaluate this sort of information.
This is a peeve of mine too, as I griped to a previous poster.
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(Wow – lots of folks here with impressive academic credentials, that far exceed mine.)
Thanks you all for taking the time to post on this topic.
Gut Shabbos.
I can only try:
Its not only affinity, its also exposure. Without exposure, children will not be aware of the possibilities out there.
In addition, for the yeshivish world, anything labeled an elective will be dismissed by rabbaim who will push for learning instead. The only possibility is an either/or, and that takes money (as you point out).
^yeah that. but ICOT…you have been advocating a change all this time…why dont you set out exactly what the curriculum would be under the ICOT administration.
Bomb, he set out his ideas for curriculum change in his first post on the subject. You need to read posts before responding to them, (as has been pointed out to you previously.) 🙂
gavra_at_work-
Its not only affinity, its also exposure. Without exposure, children will not be aware of the possibilities out there.
There is already exposure from the first eight years of schooling. This additional exposure would come at the expense of mandating three or four years of schooling in extremely difficult subjects. The only beneficiaries would be the students that were not interested in the subject beforehand but now would be interested. To compel everyone to put in an additional 3-4 years for this small group’s benefit isn’t reasonable.
This is not intended to minimize the importance of these subjects and their related professions.
Law, good government, crime prevention, and business management (just to pick a few examples) are also extremely important, but the courses needed for these professions are mostly not taught in High School.
In addition, for the yeshivish world, anything labeled an elective will be dismissed by rabbaim who will push for learning instead.
Not to get into this topic, but just a quick observation from my yeshiva days – “black hat” rabeim and roshei yeshiva don’t all have a monolithic “learning over anything, for everyone” approach. Although their lives revolve around the yeshiva, they aren’t oblivious to real-world requirements, as well as the fact that not everyone can learn all day.
First, I wanted to clarify that ther are exceptions when I say it is usually one or the other (chol or kodesh, but not both). For some reason, the girls schools that I know about more closely approach the ideal than the boys schools. Currently in the NY area I am aware of 3 girls schools that excel in both. TAG in Far Rockaway, Manhattan HS, and Bruriah in Elizabeth. I am most familiar with TAG, but I have heard very good things about the others.
Nevertheless while the above do prepare well for the state requirements, they are not what I would ideally desire which is allowing kids to actually do their own novel research. However, that requires advanced lab facilities and instructors which is very expensive. Also you can look at Stuyvesant High online course catalog and see what is possible with the right resources.
However, the boys schools are a different story.
Where I went to school is today considered modern, but back then, it had gedolei hador teaching kodesh (no exaggeration, they wrote more about 10 sefarim apiece on shas). It also had a rock solid secular pgm, and kids got into Ivy League schools regularly. They had rigorous chem and physics lab components in their courses. It did not have advanced research, but otherwise was excellent all around. The only drawback is that it is and was coed (although the limudei kodesh was completely separate.)
lol point taken moderator…maybe we should have a topic on impetuousness, and impatience :D:D:D ok…now that i have read the post…lol here goes…
high school is a critical time in a person’s life. they decide what the will DO with the rest of their life. elementary school subjects are very easy…the biggest slacker, and the dumbest kid in the class can ace elementary school. in high school, by offering a more full and challenging curriculum you give the students a taste for what they will be in for, when they choose a profession to study for in college. dumbing down or cutting back on limudei chol would just give students a false sense of security going into college. they will have aced all their tests, and college will hit them like a runaway train. by giving them the courses that are now given, they can get a feel for what they are good at, and what they aren’t good at. its not just a matter of affinity and exposure…to reduce the curriculum would give them a false sense of hope. i saw this in the transition from 8th grade to 9th limudei kodesh. in 8th grade we did basic gemarah, rashi and a few tosafos. many of my classmates, when they came to 9th grade were in for a shock! they had never heard of rashba or ritva in their life! and to do all the tosafos on the page??? the horor! you see? they were put at a disadvantage because they were coming from an 8th grade where the curriculum was way under the level of what it would become. in doing so the elementary school was putting them at a serious disadvantage. the same would be true if we cut back on the current curriculum. true, in the short term they will benefit…less homework time…higher grades…more learning time…but it would all be a delusion, because when they get to college, the sheer amount and difficulty of the classes will overwhelm them.
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