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nishtdayngesheft – You probably remember better than I do.
Abba – I don’t know how placement works in Lakewood or East Ramapo (BH). My suggestion was to audit the process, and hold all placement until that is done; I don’t know if that is legal or feasible. However, the forensic accounting of each school that accepts any tuition from the district is bound to save quite s few dollars (and uncover quite a bit in possible savings).
In Bloomingberg NY where the Satmars are building a community and the county denied many Hasidim the right to vote in the last election. A Federal lawsuit was brought and Sullivan County agreed to pay over $550,000, plus all voter information and ballots must be provided in Yiddish and the county will be under a Federal Monitor for the next five years. The Monitor not the election board decides who can or can’t vote during that period.
Amazing.
Public school education is a right in this country, courtesy busing is not. Again people here think the public school will suffer but the courtesy busing and the sending of special ed students to more expensive options on the tax payer dime to avoid public school will continue. It will not. In the US basically you are expected to pay for public school education whether you use it or not. Older people without kids in public schools are supposed to pay taxes for it. Choosing not to benefit from public schools is not an excuse not to pay.
Since the state will not bail out either disctict at some point taxes will likley have to be raised. It is unavoidable
Gavra: I know you copy pasted but just to set the record straight the Satmars are NOT building the Bloomingburg community – Shalom Lamm (MO, not Chasidish) is building it and marketed it to Satmar. He’s mostly behind all the counter lawsuits, but IIRC this case was fought pro-Bono, not sure though.) He invested millions and has a lot at stake in its success. The local community is fighting the development tooth and nail and he’s fighting back accordingly.
As for the voting fiasco the board cancelled all Chasidish votes claiming they didn’t live locally. (Which may have been true to some extent but they cancelled ALL Chasidish votes, not doing due diligence.). Denying votes for discriminatory reasons is a major offense in the US. So they got a monitor, compensation etc., but in Lakewood there are no illegalities claimed, just lack of funds to cover everything.
ZD: Americans are more tolerant of failing public schools than of raising taxes. By law local property/school taxes cannot be raised without voter approval. By state law there is no way to shove higher local taxes down voters throughts without their consent. Even if that means the public schools are cut back to the bare legal necessities mandated and all public school electives that aren’t mandated by law are eliminated.
Joseph, as will courtesy bussing and private placement.I may be wrong, but in NY , technically taxes can be forced on district. If two budgets are voted down, a bare bones austerity budget is enacted, along with whatever tax increase necessary to fund it. I don’t know about NJ
LC: With the loss of courtesy bussing, almost 50% of the public school students, including those add young as five years old, will be walking through dangerous streets to school as they no longer have bus transportation.
Last week the Hispanic parents held a protest against the loss of courtesy bussing now that they realized, whoops, it isn’t just the Jews who are losing courtesy bussing. And their working hours preclude being able to walk with their children to school and back.
And, no, in both NY and NJ the tax increase cannot happen if the voters voted it down. No matter how many times.
Abba. First, how is the state liable when by definition, courtesy bussing is not mandated?
Second, you write these long winded reperive commentaries that only apply to Lakewood’s courtesy bussing. Why should other NJ taxpayers pay so yeshiva kids can keep courtesy bussing ( and Joseph, please don’t reply with your false concern for the public school kids).
No one cares about Lakewood’s problems. Your solution is to raise your taxes instead of expecting other taxpayers tofoot your bill.
Or, you could move to another town that doesn’t have these issues
LC: The concerns for public school children’s hazardous bussing is not false. 1,500 public school parents, mostly Hispanic, turned out for a meeting last week to decry and protest the elimination of courtesy bussing, which over 40% of public school children in Lakewood are receiving. Walking two miles is dangerous for little kids on busy highway-like streets with no sidewalks, and their parents are working and cannot come with them.
And New Jersey’s courts have previously ruled that under NJ law, if public school children receive courtesy bussing then private school children are required to be afforded the same service.
The APP reported within the past hour that the Lakewood State monitor looks like he’s going to back down and agree to keep courtesy bussing for substantially less from the township after voters smartly rejected a recurring $6.5M annual tax increase.
Joseph, if not for the yeshiva kids, the u wouldn’t e en know, let alone care, about the public school kids.
Abba, w by atever deficit is run up, don’t expect any funding for courtesy bussing! Classes and programs for the kids. Ones before courtesy bussing.
Some dont seem to understand politics , you have to compromise and give to get. If you demand government money, it will come at a cost. They are not giving you the money for free
The government is getting the money from the people; it isn’t the government’s money, it is the taxpayer’s money.
The government is getting the money from the people; it isn’t the government’s money, it is the taxpayer’s money.
When East Ramapo takes in more in government aid than it pays in Taxes, its not their money
Residents of East Ramapo and Lakewood, both, pay more in State and local taxes than they receive in aid.
Where do either of you get your information from?
Common sense. The private school community is paying millions and millions in property taxes for public schools and not utilizing them. It is obvious, without needing to be an Einstein, that the private school community is paying much more in taxes than receiving in aid.
In NYS, NYC is the engine that drives the rest of the State.
So pure conjecture on both of your parts, without any numbers.
Its not conjecture. In fact Wall Street Workers are about 8% of the workers in NYS and pay about 20% of the total taxes. NYC also has alot of other really high paid workers in other industries like Advertising , Corporate lawyers and other really high paying jobs, not available in the Suburbs
But you don’t know how much money comes out of East Ramapo (or its private school community) in taxes, or how much state money it receives.
School aid by district 2013
New York City New York City $2,147,483,647 $2,147,483,647 2.8% $175,983,384 2.5%
Erie Buffalo $633,606,117 $639,067,570 0.9% $11,064,509 2.2%
Monroe Rochester $457,469,958 $481,160,846 5.2% $14,337,538 3.3%
Onondaga Syracuse $271,660,828 $279,212,747 2.8% $7,321,605 2.9%
Westchester Yonkers $213,107,131 $222,627,312 4.5% $9,223,850 4.5%
Suffolk Brentwood $204,776,290 $216,802,554 5.9% $8,891,849 4.6%
Orange Newburgh $122,734,540 $123,690,047 0.8% $3,368,600 3.1%
Suffolk William Floyd $106,972,516 $107,210,733 0.2% $1,646,213 1.8%
Suffolk Sachem $107,385,914 $105,380,122 -1.9% $9,938 0.0%
Oneida Utica $101,308,520 $103,942,023 2.6% $4,272,610 4.8%
Schenectady Schenectady $94,311,869 $98,201,754 4.1% $4,056,979 4.7%
Nassau Hempstead $92,142,241 $94,725,696 2.8% $2,418,875 2.7%
Niagara Niagara Falls $89,430,177 $91,933,042 2.8% $2,448,874 3.0%
Suffolk Central Islip $81,277,723 $89,914,350 10.6% $8,775,171 11.6%
Chemung Elmira $77,227,749 $79,870,407 3.4% $2,737,339 4.3%
Suffolk Longwood $76,285,520 $77,054,806 1.0% $468,441 0.7%
Albany Albany $76,830,409 $77,016,057 0.2% $666,580 1.0%
Suffolk Middle Country $73,354,042 $76,020,488 3.6% $2,579,407 3.8%
Monroe Greece $74,671,091 $75,289,356 0.8% $673,787 1.1%
Westchester Mount Vernon $69,334,184 $72,745,120 4.9% $4,072,037 6.4%
Orange Middletown $67,115,929 $69,148,361 3.0% $418,816 0.7%
Oneida Rome $62,892,384 $63,428,823 0.9% $522,367 1.0%
Broome Binghamton $51,738,646 $58,593,856 13.2% $1,988,205 4.3%
Suffolk Patchogue-Medf $56,995,459 $58,190,504 2.1% $1,295,275 2.7%
Onondaga North Syracuse $57,111,747 $57,662,323 1.0% $1,637,084 3.4%
Dutchess Poughkeepsie $53,630,185 $55,507,318 3.5% $736,542 1.4%
Nassau Freeport $52,650,570 $55,155,737 4.8% $2,400,557 4.9%
Rockland East Ramapo $52,818,910 $53,942,961 2.1% $806,788 1.6%
Chautauqua Jamestown $56,224,411 $53,527,024 -4.8% $1,766,640 3.9%
Nassau Levittown $47,945,164 $52,468,502 9.4% $1,233,087 2.8%
Without table formatting, I can’t tell what it says.
Whatever the numbers in aid, you need to show taxes paid for it to have any meaningful, and you need to break it down by amounts paid and received by the private school community.
The private school community received a tiny fraction as a percent of that aid yet pays a high amount of property taxes funding the schools. Most of that aid, by far, goes to the public school community. So, indeed, the non-public school community receives far less than they pay. So the little aid (as a percent) that the private school community does receive, is far less than they pay in taxes. And they’re entirely in the right to defend the little they get.
Private schools are not supposed to receive direct aid. only indirect aid for things like Bus service and textbooks and some disabilith services
Okay, so I googled those numbers, and what it’s saying is that E. Ramapo received over $50 million in aid. On its own, that number doesn’t tell us anything.
I would have given the Link which was easier to read, but I didnt think it would have been allowed
First you said: When East Ramapo takes in more in government aid than it pays in Taxes, its not their money.
Now, you’re saying that they’re not supposed to benefit from the money they pay, regardless of how much?
DY
Yes it says East Ramapo received about $50 Million in aid which is about what other districts go. They should get similar amounts to what other districts of the same size receive. I have no problem with East Ramapo getting similar amounts to what other similar sized districts get. They should not get more that what other similar sized districts get.
Is that relevant to what we were discussing?
No.
“Its not conjecture. In fact Wall Street Workers are about 8% of the workers in NYS and pay about 20% of the total taxes. NYC also has alot of other really high paid workers in other industries like Advertising , Corporate lawyers and other really high paying jobs, not available in the Suburbs”
But many of those working on Wall Street and NYC lawyers do not let live in NYC even while working there. A good number of the private school parents in ERCSD do just that. A much greater percentage, in fact, than the public school community.
“Yes it says East Ramapo received about $50 Million in aid which is about what other districts go. They should get similar amounts to what other districts of the same size receive. I have no problem with East Ramapo getting similar amounts to what other similar sized districts get. They should not get more that what other similar sized districts get.”
Similar sized districts, only if you exclude the non public school students. Ignoring the fact that they too are required to receive mandated services.
You blather is factually and mathematically incorrect.
“Private schools are not supposed to receive direct aid. only indirect aid for things like Bus service and textbooks and some disabilith services”
You will notice that Joseph said private school COMMUNITY notprivate schools. The schools in fact on receive indirect aid.
On the other hsnd schools which are contracted by the district to provide mandated services, such as special Ed, even to students from families who are not part of the public school community, are paid for the services they provide. That is not government aid, that is fee for service. A very big difference.
“School aid by district 2013”
This table says nothing. Every district that receives state aid, and every one does, is getting in excess of the school taxes collected in the district. The amount they are allowed to collect must be clued hat they are receiving in state aid. The state aid comes out of income tax. You think that the state income taxes collected from residents of ERSCD is less than 52,00,0000?
Where did you come up with that fantasy from?
There are basically only 4 real exit strategies
1) Raise taxes , however the majority of the people who do not use public school are against this and it will only happen if forced
2) Government bailout , could happen, but unlikely as there are other districts throughout the state that have budget issues and they would expect a bailout too. It would set a bad precedent from a state level. There are districts for example that most of the homeowners are either seasonal people (Like the Hamptons) or people without kids like eldery and they could say, we dont want to pay, state bail us out
3) District merging . Merge East Ramapo with a neighboring district , this would work for a while, except the neighboring districts would likely reject as they would be afraid of being outnumbered and out voted and it would become another East Ramapo and the larger district would have the same issues over again.
4) Cut most private school spending, Public vs Private school spending is not equal in the public eyes. People on the greater level do not equate money spent for private schools vs money spend for public schools even if the public school spending isnt mandatory. People would more support a football team or AP classes for the public schools than busing to yeshivas. That is just the way it is, its not only the law its the culture of the society. Private school spending will get cut first. The monitor and the state will demand it before any bailout. People feel private schools are a choice and there is no reason for taxpayers (On the state level) to pay for it
The money going to private schools is mandated. If they’re going to change the law, they might as well just fix the flawed funding formula.
It’s illegal to raise taxes more than a certain amount, so they can’t force a tax increase, again, unless they change the law.
1) Can’t be forced. Won’t happen.
2) Most likely scenario to occur. Because if it doesn’t happen you’ll have tens of thousands of black and Hispanic public school children in failed public schools whose funding has been cut to there legal bare minimum. State politicians will be afraid.
3) Very unlikely as the neighboring districts won’t agree to it.
4) Won’t happen because it would require new laws in legislative changes. Their is no public will by elected politicians to take away benefits from school children, even private ones. Especially considering their parents are a strong and influential voting bloc.
Cut most private school spending,
In the Five Towns, there is an emergency election to replace the former speaker of the Senate (Skelos?). If he is replaced by a Democrat (likely), the chamber will turn over to Democrat, and Legislative changes become extremely likely.
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