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Completely out of control
Can you explain a little more to what you are referring?
while I agree that in certain wedding halls you can be aproached 10-20 times a night, it is your freedom not to give if you do not want to.Remember in Europe davka actual meals were set aside for the poor that wanted to join in with the community simcha.I am sure that better off community members also gave them some tzedaka as well. Tzedaka tatzil mimaves, just remember if you are posting this I am assuming you are Boruch Hashem on the giving and not the receiving end. Only Simchas
I’m from OOT and we don’t have that many schnorers (HATE that word!)yidden collecting, at our simchas. Though we have our share it certainly not out of control. I assume the OP is from NY? Lakewood?
It says in Artscroll Tehilim, quoted by a Rishon (i think Rashi), that the men in France would have a Minhag to make their coffins out of their tables, over which they gave food to poor people over. Thus it would symbolize the only thing that went up with them in the Olam Haemes was the good deeds they performed in this world.
Red Sock: I hope you schnorr at least three times a day, and I hope the One you scnorr from has a better atitude than you do.
The Schnoring really only takes place in Brooklyn, I rarely see it at weddings in other locations
On one hand I think that it is very wrong to go schnorring at Weddings or even in a shull. But on the other hand these are people (at least some of them) that really need this money (dont know if you can call these few cents money) just to survive!
Baalsechel, while the analogy is a beutiful one there is a difference. We approach our benifactor with respect and anavo (at least we try). And when we take our three steps back we have already expressed our hakoras hatov for everything that is done for us. I believe the OP is refering to those individuals who stick their hand in between your fork and mouth and are already looking for the next target. There seems to be an expectation that tzedaka will be given. Once I forgot my wallet to davening and wasn’t able to give erev shabbos to a gentleman who regularly comes around, although I appologized the look I received was a look of such disdain I couldn’t believe it. Unfortunately I believe a culture of dependency has been created.
BaalHabooze-“(HATE that word!)”
IM not so HO it is derogatory and should not be used, especially in front of children. “Meshulach” is appropriate and bikuvidik. If s/o cannot afford to give, they are not absolved from treating another human being with respect and dignity, especially those less fortunate than us.
If people are tired, they can’t really help if they snore.
It’s one thing to have a table for aniyim at a chasunah but it’s something else when many chasunah invaders disturb the chuppa and are very aggressive with their shnorring. In addition, at the meal, they sit in seats reserved for guests. Women are not aware of this annoyance since they are spared schnorring in their section.
When I make a chasunah, I leave several hundred dollars with the hall manager to distribute to schnorrers to avoid having my guests subjected to this unwanted behavior. I don’t invite friends and relatives to my simcha to get solicited.
To all of you who are pro-shnorring at simchas: How about allowing them to invade your home when you make a vort or birthday party and have them mingle with your guests and work the crowd. How about shnorring at a shiva house; who would deny a shnorrer there? And set up some seats for shnorrers at your dining room or simcha hall the next time you have a parlor meeting or bris or bar mitzvah seudah, let’s all enjoy.
Give tzadaka, but there are times and places when it is not appropriate.
my cousins had a table with cake and kugel for meshulachim and it worked
BSD, a meshulach collects funds on behalf of others such as a yeshiva or a public kupah. A schnorer is collecting “far zich”. Back in the day the balei simcha would deposit a certain sum of money with the caterer who would distribute it among the “collectors” in the entrance hall. I don’t know if this is current practice.
BaalSechel: whether RedSock is right or wrong, you crossed the line when you cursed him/her. Why don’t you try to live up to your username.
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This seems to be the key to the whole problem. Why do the communities to whom these people belong allow them to be destitute, to the point where they need to ask other yidden for money at Chassunahs? Why isn’t their local Tomchei Shabbos (or Bikur Cholim) helping them?
Mayan davash,
I think you missunderstood his/her post. Scnorring three times a day is a remez to tefillah to HKBH. We may and should ask everything from him.
Mayan Dvash: You are wrong! read his post over and notice the capital “O” by One!!
On this topic, there is a point at which it crosses the line, I was at a chasuna of a bas Rosh Yeshiva in Yerushalayim and they called the mishtara to throw out uninvited “guests” at one point, shocking as it may seem.
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I don’t mind the Schnorring in Shuls and/or Weddings. It’s only slightly disturbing. So if a person has they can give -if not -not.
But the last couple of years here in Lakewood -we can now have sometimes a couple times a day schnorrers banging on the door. For people who learn or work out of the house -it probably isn’t really disturbing, but for s/o like me who does things by the computer it has been getting to me. Esp. since most don’t just knock once -they either do the sing-song knock or wait 30 seconds to a minute and knock again. It has started cutting into my time of doing things I have to!
Oot: Thanks for explaining what I meant. I wish you were right, but most people don’t exactly daven the way you described. Who can say that the thought of total dependency on the One they schnorr from permeates their entire being the way you describe. Many people don’t even realize that they are scnorring; asking for something that they need. Some, with a dizzying speed on their lips, have their mind fixated on their next business deals. Those same people tend to be the ones that complain loudest when the indigent ask them for a handout, with much more focus then they had at their last schnorring session.
Not to mention being grateful afterward: How many of us feel so grateful after receiving a handout, that we would recoil at the thought of the handout itself being used in a way that slights the Donor.
Or the idea of entitlement. How many don’t have the expectation that they will be granted a handout. If they didn’t, their payers would be an inspiration to watch.
Health: the Orach Tzedaka brings from Rav Elyashiv that you can hang a sign outside advising meshulachim as to when you are available to give Tzdaka. However, should you open the door and discover a meshulach there, you are obligated to give him.
One last thought: Rav Mendel Kaplan Zatal used to host outcasts, many of them with unpleasant body odor. His son asked him: why these people. He answered, “who knows how we appear to the Ribbono Shel Olam?”
I know a family who makes a pointof ONLy inviting outcasts.
when one of their kids approached the father and asked’ why do you always such pple, why dont you ever invite a balabatish crowd?
The father replied in a heartbeat, ‘those pple have where to go! People like these are not wanted by anyone, so THEY need a place!’
This seems to be the key to the whole problem. Why do the communities to whom these people belong allow them to be destitute, to the point where they need to ask other yidden for money at Chassunahs? Why isn’t their local Tomchei Shabbos (or Bikur Cholim) helping them?
The problem is all the fakers. When my community feet up a system whereby meshulachim had to provide documentation to a committee of Rabbanim that both they and the organization they were collecting for were legit, the numbers of meshulachim dropped
What bothers me more than schnorrers are shmoozers. I’m always at a chupah in Williamsburg and people all around me are shmoozing and these are people who know better
The gemara mentions that a certain amora lived in a house in an area with a common courtyard (similar to a bungalow colony). They put up a gate to keep the shnorrers out, and then this amora stopped meriting eliyahu hanavi.
Many years ago at my own wedding in Williamsburg, my father had someone on the staff of the hall stand at the front door and hand each Ani $10 and asked them not to come in. If they insisted, they were let in, but I’m told that very few came in. They took the $10 and went elsewhere. It cost a total of about $300, and our wedding guests were able to enjoy.
My only question is: Did we take away everyone’s Mitzvas Tzedaka for the night?
Boruch Hashem, I believe you are wrong, especially in the out of town communities. I can’t speak for Williamsburg, but where I live and where my relatives are (three different communities), we make sure everyone in the community has food and medical care. What else is a community for? Satmer Bikur Cholim is supposed to be famous for this!
Most of the “collecters” I see our mishulachim/os collecting for orginazations. While I applaud the anivus and their diligance, its like walking the guantlet sometimes to get in and out of a simcha. My main beef, on my side of the mechitza, is that most women don’t have money on them at a wedding!! Even women who come without husbands simply have a small bag with their cell phone and car keys, not a wallet full of cash.
I wont deny that its a big mitzva and for those that can, should give. But there’s a time and place…
What bothers me is that many meshulachim (i’ve noticed this with many mishulachim from E”Y) come with about 5 or 6 in a vehicle, and just park their cars blocking peoples driveways, double parking, etc… I know it may sound selfish of me, but who do they think they are to just come here, zip into an empty space, not looking to see if its legal, jump out of the car (literally), and run across the street or down the block?! I’m not a man so i cant say anything about the annoyance of being disturbed during davening. But those feelings always burst into my mind when i see this. If someone has something for me to tell myself (i’m not talking about ‘B”H i dont need to fly overseas to collect’, because i do feel sorry for them.) I would love to stop those thoughts but find myself fuming when i see this time and again.
gavra_at_work -“we make sure everyone in the community has food and medical care. What else is a community for? Satmer Bikur Cholim is supposed to be famous for this!”
In Lakewood it’s impossible to keep up! Now whether this is due to the lack of caring from the rich people here or maybe because every Schnorrer in the world comes collecting from them and they don’t have enough to go around or because there is a very high percentage of poor people here -I don’t know. S/o could start a topic about this because it seems talking about Lakewood is the favorite subject of the day!
In Lakewood it’s impossible to keep up! Now whether this is due to the lack of caring from the rich people here or maybe because every Schnorrer in the world comes collecting from them and they don’t have enough to go around or because there is a very high percentage of poor people here -I don’t know. S/o could start a topic about this because it seems talking about Lakewood is the favorite subject of the day!
I’m not interested in bashing Lakewood, or any other community (If you could call Lakewood a community). If someone else figures out why Lakewoodians (if they can be called that?) can’t keep up, please let me know.
Maybe it is a big city/small city thing (and Lakewood is a big city, over 100K people!)
Miritchka: I don’t know why you blame the Meshulachim for the car parked illegally. They don’t own the car, they just hire a meshulach car service. You should blame the car owner, who should park legally after dropping off the Meshulachim.
BaalSechel: You may be right most of the time. But I’m referring to those meshulachim who borrow or rent a car and all the passengers including the driver leave the car parked illegaly.
They probably feel they have a right to do what they want because they are so poor and feel they should have leeway to do whats convenient and people should first be in their position before yelling at them. Im not saying its a good excuse but cmon, was there never times when you did something not right, and thought-its too bad what people think, if they would only know my circumstances they would understand, or, right now i couldnt care less what they think, or whats right. Dunno if i make sense, but these people are not living normal lives.
skiaddict: i hear ya’ and yes, I’m sure I do things that annoy others. My point was that this bothers me to no end. I understand they are in desperate need of money, maybe even more than the average needy NY’er. But that still doesnt give anyone a right to park illegaly (specifically blocking others driveways or blocking parked cars from pulling out).
Its enough that a whole group of them , sometimes more than one car, jumps out, annoying mispallelim (i’m not a man so i cant really say much about this part), running down streets expecting women to quickly move to the side without so much as a glance or an excuse me so they can catch another minyan down the block, but do they have to annoy those same mispallelim that live/park their cars on the block and give them money by blocking their cars?!
Boorich Hashem we’re the kvetchers about the shnorrers not the shnorrers.
MoodcheDoovid: Good point, i guess thats a great line to keep in my head when i see this. Thank you!
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