- This topic has 100 replies, 29 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
ZD, those aren’t minhagim. They have, and never did have, religious significance.
Ubiquitin, Really No parallel? “OR WITH A CROSS SHAPED KEY” No parallel at all?
Because the tool they used to make a cross was a key, you consider it a parallel? If they draw a cross with a pen, should we stop using pens?
We know the significance of a cross to them; the significance of a key is completely different. That is not a parallel.
Is there really a differnce between not wearing buttons or baking this Challah?
I am sure to those Chassidim who dont wear buttons there is a reason for it
ZD, you mean to say that you don’t see the difference?! Black straps on shoes was a Minhag while the shoes being made of leather was not. Do you get that difference?
Now, actually when the new look came in many were against changing to fit the outside world. Now that it is normal, no difference how it happened, it is not an issue. I don’t know of any Chassidus which prohibits buttons, btw.
Lf
taamei minhagim is a more recent source than the ohev yisroel, not sure how that helps. That said id love an earlier source please dont give up. I bet that alfassi fellow would love one too.
Dy
You really don’t consider that a source? They (allegedly) used keys to make cross/key shaped marks in their bread at this time of year. And we make key shaped marks or key shaped bread which evolved to sticking a key in regular bread.
Its impossible to prove of course. But isnt that suspicious? Wouldnt you call that a parallel?
DY: Keys have represented the cross in Christianity for well over a millennium. There is a strong correlation between a key and a cross.
HaLeiVi: No, because “sanctifying” a Minhag from Avodah Zarah is an Issur D’Oraisa, no matter how the reason changed. Mattan Torah was able to change such things according to the Rambam. Nothing else.
LF: If you had a Minhag that was clearly Over an Issur D’Oraisa, would you keep it? Or would you realize that maybe a little Amaratzus creeped in over the Galus and that the Minhag was started improperly?
Sure, similar shape. So what? It’s significance as something which opens is obvious, and in no way comes from a goyish minhag.
And really, you should be more careful who you accuse of amaratzus.
As I said, it is a logical custom now so even if we copied it acc. to the Marsham it might not be chukas hagoy. (I’m streching that Marsham a lot, I know)
DY: I wasn’t referring to this. I was saying theoretically if there was some Minhag that was clearly an Issur D’Oraisa.
Jewish thinker a.if the source is avodeh zarah logic wouldn’t help. B. Keys in challah is the polar opposite of logical custom.
Sam2
Im pretty convinced the source is avodah zarah yet still plan to have one as my parents did.because a. If you really wanted you can come up with a heter ( I know chukas akum is a pet topic of yours but you are learned enough to come up with snifim lehakel if you really wanted to). B. Abandoning minhagim is dangerous. C. Using historical research to change modern practice is dangerous.
ubiquitin:
Why wouldnt a work of fiction be a legitimate source? A novel written in say Victorian england is a great source regarding how they spoke, lived dressed, and baked bread (if mentioned in the novel). Read Moby Dick (dont really it is long and incredibly boring), it is a great source of information on 19th century whaling and whaling towns.
Seriously? While there are indeed works of fiction that are historically accurate, there are many more that are not. Unless a work of fiction is actually known to be historically accurate, to attempt to prove history from it (without even noting that it is a work of fiction!), and then to use this so-called “proof” to assur a practice that is several hundred years old, is nothing short of ridiculous. I find it hard to believe any impartial and rational person could honestly believe the logic of that argument.
Tell me, should we assur beis din from sitting at a round table because King Arthur and his Knights did so in a storybook?
regarding your second paragraph:
“How was the shape of the cross made? Either with a bone of a pig or with a cross shaped key. There is no parallel to the Schlissel Challah here whatsoever.”
Really No parallel? “OR WITH A CROSS SHAPED KEY” No parallel at all
Of course not. One is discussing making a key shape, one is discussing use a key, among other things, as an instrument to make an entirely different shape. They have nothing to do with each other.
So once again, we do not have proof that this supposed pagan custom even existed, forget about placing it at the time and place where the Jewsih one originated.
Jewish thinker a.if the source is avodeh zarah logic wouldn’t help. B. Keys in challah is the polar opposite of logical custom.
I’m not 100% sure you are right about a. About B, putting trees in the shul is not logical in it of itself, but it is a remembrance of Har Sinai. Same thing here, not logical, but now for a segulah so logical.
Jewish thinker
. What would be an illogical minhag?
C’mon Sam, when Moshe Rabbeinu built the Mizbei’ach and called it Hashem Nisi, He was following Avoda Zara? As you really telling me that the Rambam’s reasoning is that the Torah went against the norm here, while his whole purpose in the Sefer is to give rational?
Secondly, you agreed in the past not to call this Avoda Zara because even the originators of the non Jewish custom in question weren’t worshipping anything by doing it.
But really, it makes no difference how it seeped in. It’s not even an exact copy. The claim is merely that it can be traced to that other custom/ritual. When I draw a key shape on my Challah I am not following any Chukas Hagoy, whatever a history book might say. Eating Turkey on thanksgiving, perhaps, but this?
You better stay off Thanksgiving 🙂
It is an American Holiday
HaLeiVi: I’m not sure I understand your first paragraph.
I don’t have a key so I’m using a hairpin instead.
mw13
Novels are a legitimate source for historical practice and are used all the time, as in examples I provided.
You say “a practice that is several hundred years ” You do realize that given how old our religion is, “several hundred years” is a modern innovation. Kudos to you for admitting that.
BTW a point you are overlooking is that even without the Irish source the minhag is sketchy. Here is the timeline:
1- Goyim make breads marked with crosses this time of year. This is a fact it is true throughout Europe and is older than shlisel chalah
2- Keys were often shaped like crosses. Another Fact
3- Yidden started making Breads marked with keys this time of year.
The only link Alfassi provided (which may not be needed, though it seems solid to me) is that Goyim used their cross shaped keys (which nobody disputes they had) to make the cross shaped marks on their breads (which nobody disputes that they had).
Keep in mind this is not a proof at all. It is almost impossible to prove these kind of historical things. Even if we found a letter from Yankel Yatzmich describing how he loves this idea of marking breads with tzelems that he picked up in Ireland and plans to copy them by using keys, and he has a meeting with the Oheiv Yisroel where he plans to trick him into thinking it is an ancient source. It still wouldn’t prove anything! “Obviously the letter was forged” “The Apter Rav would never fall for it” All we can do is examine the evidence and reach the most likely conclusion. Even without Alfassi’s paper (which seems relatively solid to me) The conclusion that it is an adaptation of Goyish cross marked rolls (“Hot cross buns”) made this tiem of year is pretty sound
The thing is, ubiquitin, that the minhag isn’t really so similar: the dough is merely pierced with a key, and another form of the minhag is just shaping the dough or some seeds like a key. Also, who’s to say that the christians didn’t get their idea from us? And not all similar things come from one another; for example, some old haggadas have a picture of a rabbit by yaknehaz, because “haz” means hare or rabbit in german or something like that (at least, that’s what I’ve been told.) But would you suggest that due to the proximity in time of pesach to lehavdil easter, it means that the rabbit was taken from the christians? Of course not, because we have a separate reason to explain the rabbit, or in this case, the key.
And. when you say that yidden make schlissel challas specifically this time of year: it’s true, but the time of year is the source of the minhag. At least one explanation is that the key is to remind us that we have the “key” to unlock great spiritual achievements in this great time leading up to matan torah.
IvduesHashem
“Also, who’s to say that the christians didn’t get their idea from us?”
The dating of the practice by us and lehavdil by them. It isnt even close
“But would you suggest that due to the proximity in time of pesach to lehavdil easter, it means that the rabbit was taken from the christians?”
No Yaknehaz sounds similar to “jag da has” or German for hunt the Rabbit. If the bunnies were dancing around with painted eggs, i might be suspicous.
Also keep in mind Rabbits for yaknehaz predates Easter bunnies (By over 3 centuries believe it or not! Hare hunting is found as early as 1350 in the Sarajevo Hagadah while the Easter Bunny doesnt show up until 1682.) . So not to worry.
“At least one explanation is that the key is to remind us that we have the “key” to unlock great spiritual achievements in this great time leading up to matan torah.”
That can be said at any time of year: Elul is time for teshva, we blow the Shofar, then Aseres Yemei Teshuva, then the rest of Tishrei a month packed with mitzvos. cheshvan as the rain begins to fall, rain is symbol for Parnassa, Kislev has Chanukah the final Gmar Din according to the Bnei Yissaschar. Teves and Shevat is the end of the rain season one last chance for parnasa. Adar has Purim a time of Geula etc etc etc
ubiquitin: You don’t know the dating of the minhag. Minhagim were frequently not recorded in seforim and were only passed down via mesorah. So the earliest written record of it is in no way indicative of how early the minhag is.
Joseph
Thats baloney. We have thousands of written pages from every period covering every facet of daily living from when we wake up.until, nay including when we sleep, all year round from when we are born (even before that) to after we die. There are even recordings of personal minhagim like those of the maharil. NONE mention shlisel chalah. Even chasidim like the nitei gavriel acknowledge it is a chasidish minhag and thus can not be much older than a few hundred years which coincidently is where we first find it recorded among our aformentiined 1000s of pages
Nittel is actually a great example of a Minhag that was around long before it was written. Chassidim value Mihagim and kept it. Yeshivos let it pass and get forgotten. The Chassam Sofer discusses it, as a Mihag he had, and quotes his Rebbe on it. The Mekor Chaim mentions it as a topic on his table of contents, although we don’t have the content.
A Minhag only gets into a Sefer if something came up. The Maharil is one Sefer where a Talmid decided to write down his Rebbe’s Minhagim. We get hints of Minhagim from side references quite often. What was the Minhag of the Baalei Tosafos to eat on Purim? They don’t write it to let us know, but they do discuss the Bracha.
ubiquitin: The only baloney is what you think you know. The fact of the matter is, as any Jew should know, there are many unwritten mesorahs passed down verbally and always have been. In fact it’s a feature not a bug. You heard of something called Torah She’bal Peh? (I know much of it has been written already but it wasn’t always.) And there are many minhagim that were unwritten for many many centuries.
ubiquitin, I’m not worrying about the rabbit, I’m worrying about this minhag. I come from a chassidish background and have this minhag, and it would be terribly upsetting to learn if it really did stem from christian practices because of, in my opinion, its beauty and meaning (besides even the halachic aspect, which I am completely ignorant about). And many chassidish people have minhagim regarding challahs yearround – round (dunno why), bird shaped (alluding to passuk in yeshaya “like birds appearing form nowhere, so will hashem’s help arrive”), shofar, or hand shaped challah (dunno why) for rosh hashana, round challah with outstretched arm for hoshana rabba (to accept a “good kvittel”), crown or torah challah for simchas torah, menorah challah for chanukah, fish or hamantash shaped challah for purim, etc. These are events with more symbolism to put on a challah than the time between pesach and shavuos, which could be why the key challah is specifically at this time. In any event, just because there could be other times this minhag could apply doesn’t mean it isn’t appropriate here. I’m not trying to fool myself, but I am skeptical about believing that the minhag stems from a non-jewish source. If there is a problematic correlation, anyway, why didn’t previous rabbonim point it out and stop the practice?
Ivdu
You brought up the rabbit.
I am chassidish too and plan to make Shlisel Chalah. I’m so sorry to have upset you. I wont tell you where Shtreimel and Vaseh zoken come from, but I’ll give you a hint It’s not Moshe Rabeniu.
If you are interested in some of these minhagim there is an interesting Sereid by R’ Dovi Meisels called Shabbos Secrets, Seder Secrets, Seudah secrets which includes pictures of many of these Challahs.
“If there is a problematic correlation, anyway, why didn’t previous rabbonim point it out and stop the practice?”
a. They didnt know
b. The tzibur wouldnt accept it,
Joseph
I dont follow, Torah Shbal peh as you point out IS written, and before it was written we didnt know what to do based on mesora there was continous machlokes about everything. To the point where eis laaasos that yidishkeit would dissapear if all that was relied on was mesora, so it WAS written. Sadly in the 2711 blat in Bavli there was no room to stick in Shlissel Chala. Notr in Yerushalmi or in any of our midrashim or even the Zohar!
Torah She’bal Peh was not written from the time of Har Sinai through the Tannaic period. How many centuries is that? And even then it was written sparsely, not all of the Torah She’bal Peh was written. In the Amoroic time more of the unwritten was written. And still not all of it was written. Much was still passed down verbally.
??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??????, ?????? ??????, ?????? ???????, ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??????.
And more was written down during the period of the Rishonim, but still not all. etc. But all this is only tangential to the point. Mesorah has always been a feature of Judaism. A feature, not a bug. And a verbal (i.e. unwritten) mesorah is something that always existed. Especially insofar as they concern minhagim. Minhagim have always and frequently been unwritten. Especially until relatively recent centuries. So a lack of a written text proves not a whole lot other than it wasn’t written. (Or that it may have been written but the seforim containing it has been lost over the centuries as so many seforim have been lost to the ages.)
Joseph: Ayein the famous Tshuvah by the Nodah Bihudah about Tzava’as R’ Yehudah HaChassid V’kach MiSham.
Who’s saying that it didn’t develop or evolve later on? A Minhag becomes sanctified with use.
There are many customs that started however they did and the intention was added later. Nobody made this into a Mitzvah. It is a custom that has beautiful ideas behind it (or ahead of it). At this point it becomes part of a Messorah.
I see that Ubiquitin and Joseph are not really discussing the same thing. Joseph is describing a Messorah of Minhag while Ubiquitin is responding about the Messorah of Halachah.
There is no doubt that there are and were many unwritten customs. Some of them are only known to us through passing statements in Sefarim. The Purpisa is one such example.
The fact is that what we are doing is not what they are doing, nor exactly what they did. At most it is related. How it went over, if it did, nobody knows. It probably went through a few generations. Perhaps someone came home with that shape that they got from somewhere else. Perhaps a child remembered this from a parent’s house. Who knows. Who cares?
We know that it is not the oldest Minhag. Either someone established it and it took off or it slowly spread. Either way, no matter what level of Am Haratzus might have existed, one thing every Jew knew: not to make crosses, on your bread or on your head. So, if it somehow did trickle over through osmosis, it isn’t exactly a copy and was never meant to be. At most it is an influence.
To harp on the technical grandfather of a custom is as silly as finding that Moshe Rabbeinu didn’t wear a Streimel, enlightening. In either case something was adopted and evolved and incorporated into the Jewish people while its meaning followed and became part of it.
Just like a Gadol can create a Minhag or Hanhagah because of a certain invention or meditation, he can just as well add this meditation to an existing Hanhagah.
From Josh W:
I have heard reports of a troubling minhag this coming Shabbos, one with seeming pagan origins — a minhag which has become widespread in recent years — to bake or eat challah.
To explain, etymologically, to call the braided Shabbos bread bchallah is a bit confusing. Chazal referred to Challah, but as the portion which was removed from the dough and given as a present to the kohen. (See Bamidbar 15:20 — maybe it refers Biblically to a type of bread itself, as Philologos wrote.) It is only some time later (in a 15th century German work) that the Shabbos bread itself was called “Challah”. (See also Otzar Ta’amei Haminhagim’s explanation.)
To cite Menachem Mendel, who cites others:
The braided bread loaves of Germanic tradition were invented by the women of Teutonic tribes, who used to make offerings of their own hair to their Goddess. Eventually they learned to preserve their braids by substituting the imitative loaf, which was called Berchisbrod or Perchisbrod, bread offered to the Goddess Berchta, or Perchta. The name of the braided Sabbath loaf among German Jews, Berches or Barches, was copied from this tradition.
Could it be that those nice braids that my wife makes when she bakes ?allah really have their source in pagan goddess worship? The linguist Paul Wexler thinks that the original name was actually the German Holle which was the name of a pagan Germanic goddess to whom braided bread was once given in offering. [The German] Holle was replaced at a later date-under the pressure of Judaization-by the [Hebrew] ?allah, which bore formal and semantic similarity. (See his book The Non-Jewish Origins of the Sephardic Jews, pp. 68-69 and numerous other places in his writings.)
If so, we must protest this perversion of Judaism and introduction of pagan rites into our Shabbos festivities.
…
Which schlissel challah tastes better? Simplex or Medeco?
My mother-in-law writes down the combination to the Shabbos lock and bakes the paper into the challah.
My mother shapes the little numbers and puts them on top of the challah. One year, we caught the cleaning lady sneaking a look at the challahs, so we had to change the combination.
We follow my mother-in-law’s minhag.
Halevai
“Who’s saying that it didn’t develop or evolve later on? A Minhag becomes sanctified with use.
There are many customs that started however they did and the intention was added later. Nobody made this into a Mitzvah. It is a custom that has beautiful ideas behind it (or ahead of it). At this point it becomes part of a Messorah”
i’m not sure if that was directed to me. But, I agree with every word! very well put
I agree with your other post too, with one minor quibble.
you say “who cares?” and “To harp on the technical grandfather of a custom is silly” I disagree. I find the development of minhagim and by extention change to Jewish practice a fascinating topic. I read every book/sefer of minhagim that can get my hands on (as an aside none, including Chasidish works like minhag yisroe Torah and Nitei Gavriel claim shlissel chalah is older than a few centuries Joseph is a trailblazer, but to be fair i cant PROVE Moshe Rabeinu didsnt make Shlisel Chalah much as I cant PROVE he didnt wear a shtreimel)
Joseph thanks for the last post. Very interesting
Great news! I came across a mekor!
Joseph you left off this part of Josh W’s post:
What I find more problematic is what the widespread acceptance of this minhag means.
A) Initially, people’s practice was more or less mimetic.
B) Then, people turned to texts and away from their mimetic traditions.
C) Then, with the advent of the Internet, each group’s personal mimetic traditions become text (or become memes?) and become the expectation for the global Jewish community..
Though it really belongs on “Minhag Shopping” thread
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/minhag-shopping
There is another point to be made. Because of the value we put on Mesorah and Minhag, we should be careful about starting new ones. It is upsetting when people sometimes start something and create their own ‘family Minhag’. This waters down the whole concept of Minhag and Mesorah.
Challah is not a word like Teruma. It is used also as Chalos Devash.
Just stopping buy to wish Hatzlacha! happy braiding! successful rising! to all my friends in the CR baking Challa for Shabbos, with or without a shlissel. Since the vast majority of women do not bake their own Matzos for Pesach, we have not had an opportunity to make the Bracha on Hafrashas Challa in a few weeks. (Extra Congrats to any lady who baked Erev Shabbos Hagadol, if one actually exists!) May the Mitzva, and the Tefillos and Kavanos accompanying it, be accepted.
Golfer – AMEIN and +1
“Froggie the Small therefore rules that one must follow the custom of one’s ancestors or community.”
– Hatzfardea, Halichos vHanhagos 35e
Halevai
Agreed!
See the thread I started as an offshoot of this, based on your very point (link in my last post).
I do find it interesting watching new “minhagim” pop up and imagining this very conversation between my grandchildren and Joseph’s.
In a Generation or so you can copy paste the entire above conversation just substitute “Shlissel Chalah” with “Chanuka presents”. I can hear it now
Joseph’s Grandchild : “Chanuka presents are a very old minhag”
My grandchild: “Actually it is a recent innovation based on Goyim’s presents, thats why it isnt mentioned in early sources”
Joseph’s Grandchild: “You don’t know the dating of the minhag. Minhagim were frequently not recorded in seforim and were only passed down via mesorah. So the earliest written record of it is in no way indicative of how early the minhag is.”
As I mentioned on an earlier thread I heard a magid shiur give a reason for the minhag of saying ka’eileh together on Pesachs’ maftir. It is only a matter of time until Siddurim are printed with instructins that “Yesh nohagim lomar hamilah ka’eileh bkol ram”. As someonne mentioned on that thread “ka’eileh” has the same letters as “a Kalah” And what more auspicous time to have a segula for a kalah than yetzias mitzrayim and birchas Tal!
Ive also heard reasons given for the minhag of themes on Purim. (the reasons are actually better and more believable than shlisel chalah)
Another new minhag which is close to becoming an old part of mesora is singing Im Eshkochaich at the Chupa.
These are examples which (I think) we can all agree on are recent innovations, yet we actively see them becoming part of our Mesora.
None of these are bad per se. Though I agree with you “This waters down the whole concept of Minhag and Mesorah.”
Plus I find it all fascinating.
Another new minhag which is close to becoming an old part of mesora is singing Im Eshkochaich at the Chupa.
I have a source for (at least something very similar to) this one:
The Taz in Orach Chaim 560:4 writes:
??? ????? ?? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ???’. ?????? ???? ?????
????? ???’ ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???
PAA
Thanks
Though
a. Ive never quite seen what the Taz says being done. (I assumed he was talking when preparing the Chasan by putting ashes, but granted it could be after the chupa)
b. I only mentioned it becasue it is something that we can see unfolding. Even if it is a reincarnation of an older perhaps similiar minhag. 20 years ago (almost?) nobody had it at their Chupa, Slowly people began doing it. Now (almost?) every chupa has it sung (I havent been to a real chasidish wedding in a while so I dont know about them)
And on the flip side you’ll have academia base it all on some church’s half-reminiscent custom, and backing up the claim with historical snippets.
ubiquitin, I wouldn’t describe myself as chassidish (not my community, attire, etc) only that my ancestors were and I have some of their minhagim. Now I’m thoroughly confused: first you speak against schlissel challah, then you say you do it too?
I have “shabbos secrets”; that’s where I was bringing the special challahs from. Yet you didn’t respond to my post…
Also, I know these minhagim didn’t come from moshe rabbeinu or anytime near then, and wasn’t implying that at all.
Ivdu
I was clear form the onset that I make shlisel chalah as did my parents. That said I have little doubt it is an adopted goyish custom. This has all been discussed previously. I didn’t mean to confuse you.
Im not sure which part of your post I didnt reply too (I certainly didnt mean to ignore you)
If you meant this question “”If there is a problematic correlation, anyway, why didn’t previous rabbonim point it out and stop the practice?”
I did in fact reply, but will repost here:
a. They didnt know
b. The tzibur wouldnt accept it
Wondering if the KeyMaster eats Schlissel Challah.
Hey, that’s a great suggestion for his subtitle.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.