- This topic has 204 replies, 50 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 2 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
(and, once again, what type of feelings it will cause probably depends on what the communities were like that each of them grew up in and live in).
You really believe the “type of feelings (arousal) it will cause” are different in different communities?
wolf: You are frightening. Find yourslf a good psychiatrist asap.
You’re right, of course, but not for the reason you think.
Englishman has, so eloquently, proven the point (via his quote from the Igros Moshe) that one can take a halachic p’sak in a sefer at face value and that, if there are no qualifications and/or exceptions mentioned, the rule should be read as absolute.
I simply took that and applied it to the Shulchan Aruch. It says “Ain Shoalin B’shlom Isha K’lal.” One may not ask about the welfare of a woman at all. Not only are no exceptions mentions, but the word “K’lal” (translated by me as “at all” in this instance) is added. I believe the case could logically be made that there are no exceptions. This includes any woman — including close relatives (i.e. one’s daughter, mother, sister, perhaps even one’s wife).
However, I *want* to know what’s going on in the lives of my close relatives. I *want* to know how my daughter is doing. I want to know what’s going on with my sister, my mother and my grandmother. I *want* to know how my stepmother is doing and how my nieces are faring. However, according to the Shulchan Aruch, such things are strictly forbidden.
Now, there is a term for a person who *wants* to do forbidden things with close relatives. Actually, there are several terms — deviant, pervert, sicko, monster and lecher come to mind. I’m sure there are others that I haven’t thought of at the moment.
However, despite the fact that those terms can be applied to me, I still *want* to ask about the general welfare of these people. I care about them and love them, even if, perhaps, I shouldn’t. I *need* to ask about them and make sure they’re well.
Well, people who feel the *need* to do things that are sick and perverted need to be locked up and seen by a psychiatrist. So, you see, you are correct… but not for the reason you thought.
The Wolf
“You really believe the “type of feelings (arousal) it will cause” are different in different communities? “
In case my response is blocked, yes. That is why Minhag Hamakom is applied in clothing standards in Halacha.
Re: the lady who refused help in carrying her stroller up.
“She said no. And she was correct. We should not be friends. “
I could not disagree more. When the Torah itself SPECIFIES that when one’s DONKEY has fallen under its burden, that one should not just stand idly by, but rather help the owner to get the donkey back up (and presumably lift some of its burden, which clearly the donkey could no longer handle, are we to actually believe that a woman struggling to carry a stroller up the stairs is less choshuv than a donkey????????? That makes a donkey out of a man who stands by and watches (not you, because you CORRECTLY and kindly offered to help, and I believe SHE was totally wrong to refuse to accept the help). Helping someone does not make them friends. But it does show Ahavas Yisroel. FTR, I would have offered to do the same for a non-Jewish woman.
Englishman: Of course. That’s basic psychology (and I remember once thinking a Gemara said the same thing but don’t remember where it was). What you expect to cause inappropriate feelings will. What you are used to will not cause such feelings as much. If someone expects to be aroused by a 3-year-old, they will. If someone is used to playing with their 3-year-old cousin (or even a 10-year-old cousin) they will not become aroused by it because they are used to it. (Obviously this has limits, but the basic principal often applies.)
You really believe the “type of feelings (arousal) it will cause” are different in different communities?
You really think someone saying good shabbos will cause feelings of arousal in ANY community?
Popa – the top tosafos in Chullin 6b is mevuar not like you, vdoik.
=) I dont say good shabbos to them they say it to me….and i cant say i dont say it back…but as my shtark chavrusah would say..” nu why were u looking??..keep ur eyes on the street, and no one will say gs to u”…it only happens( in the places that it is not typical to say gut shabbos to people) when the other person looks eye to eye to the other person..in one of those akward momments.so try and keep your eyes on the street, and if it comes to that if you are NOT dressed like a yeshiva bochur you can quickly say it(my opinion)no prob. but if you are you dont have to say it and nothing will happen, people understand. Again this in a place where it is not typical to say good shsbbos to random people. OUT OF TOWN IT IS MUTAR TO SAY BACK TO SOMEONE GOODSHABBOS OR SAY GOOD SHABBOS TO THEM FIRST….BUT QUICKLY!- teshuvus m.t
You really think someone saying good shabbos will cause feelings of arousal in ANY community?
No. I’m not concerned for feelings of arousal. I’m concerned for feelings of friendship and relationship.
oomis: I’m unsure what you are responding to. As I noted, I think a man should offer to help a woman struggling with a burden, or struggling with an overloaded donkey.
yitay: I’m looking.
yitay: I don’t think that’s much of a raiah.
Look… if you’re wishing someone Good Shabbos, it’s because it’s Shabbos. Doesn’t the fact that it’s Shabbos merit an acknowledgement? I mean, it’s Shabbos!
Doesn’t the opinion of Shulchan Aruch and Rambam count for something???
I’m concerned for feelings of friendship and relationship.
I understand that, but two minutes later, I don’t remember the person I said “good shabbos” to. Feelings of friendship and relationship it certainly is not.
If a woman held a door open for you, would you not thank her?
oomis: I’m unsure what you are responding to. As I noted, I think a man should offer to help a woman struggling with a burden, or struggling with an overloaded donkey. “
Sorry – I thought I was pretty clear. It was nice of you to offer to help her, nothing wrong at ALL and in fact the Torah mandates helping someone with a burden (azov taazov imo, no?)to lift up the animal who has fallen down. Certainly a woman with a stroller and small children would be more in need than a donkey (or at least as much). I think she was out of line to refuse your help (unless she thought you looked a little skeevy, in which case, she was being prudent). But if she was refusing youer help out of what I believe is a misguided uber sense of tznius, then she was wrong. She cut her nose of to spite her face, I don’t think it is nothing for anyone to think her meritorious.
oomis: I’m unsure what you are responding to. As I noted, I think a man should offer to help a woman struggling with a burden, or struggling with an overloaded donkey. “
Sorry – I thought I was pretty clear. It was REALLY nice of you to offer to help her, nothing wrong at ALL and in fact the Torah mandates helping someone with a burden (azov taazov imo, no?)to lift up someone’s animal who has fallen down. Certainly a woman with a stroller and small children would be more in need than a donkey (or at least as much).
I think she was foolish to refuse your help (unless she thought you looked a little skeevy, in which case, she was being prudent). But if she was refusing your help out of what I believe is a misguided uber sense of tznius, then she was wrong IMO. She cut her nose off to spite her face, and I don’t think it is quite as meritorious on her part, as you make it out to be. Mountain, meet molehill.
@oomis You think she was doing something wrong by refusing my help? What is your basis for that? You certainly can’t prove anything from the donkey halacha.
@gregaaron: There is no connection between those two things.
Okay, Popa, I’ll bite – what’s the difference?
What’s the comparison?
Popa, the comparison is that saying each of those phrases (“thank you” and “good shabbos”) is considered – by most people, I would think – to be the polite and usual thing to do. Obviously, politeness never supersedes halacha, but minhag hamakom seems to indicate that neither of these implies anything beyond a perfunctory greeting.
Popa, the comparison is that saying each of those phrases (“thank you” and “good shabbos”) is considered – by most people, I would think – to be the polite and usual thing to do.
Oh, I don’t think you understood what I was saying. I’m not advocating anyone be rude. I am advocating that the norm should be changed such that it is not normal to say good shabbos.
Okay, sorry then – I did totally misunderstand you. My apologies.
Not sure what my thoughts on that are, but I definitely hear where you’re coming from. Personally, I don’t think the current norm is such a problem, but that’s just my own two cents.
PBA: But that’s irrelevant. Whatever the norm is is what sets what you should do here. And if the norm changes the proper course of action will change as well.
I think it’s relevant.
@oomis You think she was doing something wrong by refusing my help? What is your basis for that? You certainly can’t prove anything from the donkey halacha.’
In order for a chessed to be done, there are two partners, the doer of the chessed and the one for whom it is done. She lost out on her chelek in being the recipient of your chessed, and though machashava k’maiseh, you nonetheless did not actually get to do this particular chessed,one which immediately called to mind the helping of a stanger to get his animal upright. Sorry you don’t get the analogy of a donkey to a mere stroller. Both carry burdens, and a woman may not be strong enough to get the stroller, packages, and baby up a staircase. The fact that she said no, bothers me.It bothers me more that after the fact you thought she was correct in doing so, when she apparently needed help.
If a woman needs assistance and a man can help her, assuming there is no intent on his part to do harm, she is foolish to refuse the help. I don’t need to know chapter and verse to support why I feel that way. Clearly despite your protestations, YOU felt that way, too, since you OFFERED TO HELP HER!!!!!!! Why would you, if you innately believed it to be assur and untzniusdig? In the moment, you obviously were not thinking of anything other than helping someone with a difficult burden.
Oh, I thought you were trying to prove from the donkey halacha that a person is obligated to accept a chessed. That was the part which I thought needed proof.
In any event, I think you are looking at things too black on white. Tznius is not binary; things are not right or wrong; there are balances and nuances.
I think that it is appropriate for a man to offer to help a woman carry a stroller, since she is the one who needs the chessed done and he should not be frum on her cheshbon. But, I think the appropriate thing in this situation is for her to decide whether she absolutely needs the help and otherwise to decline.
PBA: But what if she actually needs the help? Would it be inappropriate to accept? And what if, out of a (false*) sense of Tznius, she refuses? Is that inappropriate?
*I say false because you yourself set the parameters here being whether she actually needs the help or not.
gregaaron: Thanks for the good discussion.
Today I was in a bagel shoppe in Cleveland, and the lady in front of me was holding a baby and had 3 other little kids with her. And then she accidentally knocked a thing off the counter. So I said, let me get that for you. And she let.
So you see, I’m happy, and ooomis is happy. Only Joe doesn’t like this story.
PBA and others, it’s hard to help people in distress if we first have to determine that they “absolutely” need it. What makes a need absolute? Broken bones? Be-de’avad a bad sprain? Weeping and groaning doesn’t sound absolute at all. How about simply offering help? It can even be done wordlessly.
PBA and others, it’s hard to help people in distress if we first have to determine that they “absolutely” need it.
I bet. Not nearly as hard as it is to have a discussion with you since you don’t read the posts you are responding to.
“So you see, I’m happy, and ooomis is happy”
There ya go, Pops!
*I say false because you yourself set the parameters here being whether she actually needs the help or not. “
Exactly.
BTW, my hubby and I went for a walk early this morning on a boardwalk, and saw an elderly woman with a walker, trying to get up a short staircase to her assisted living facility, which opens onto the boardwalk. I immediately asked her if she needed help getting both herself and her walker up the stairs, and opening the gate. My husband helped her, because I have a hand injury, and could not have held her had lost her balance and begun to fall. B”H she was able to get up the stairs, and he opened the gate for her. Basically he was a “spotter” for her, just in case.
Should he not have offered the help, and should she not have accepted? And it has nothing to do with age. Real tznius is for ALL ages. So is real seichel. And more important, real menschlechkeit.
PBA: Did she say thank you?
CR Shomrim Alert: PBA at Lax and Mandel’s 3 hours ago. Quick, review the security camera tapes!
no, I said I was at a bagel shoppe
PBA, you’re spot on. When the thread turned to the elaboration of rules and hashkafot on helping females in distress (how much distress, who determines it, etc. — and it was you who set the standard of “absolute need” that she has to determine, in the absence of which she should decline help), my eyes kept reading but my mind went numb. Your rebuttal brought my head somewhat back to life; it recalled the concept of chessed as something that has no ????? — something we should do without calculating.
Thanks, Popa.
it recalled the concept of chessed as something that has no ?????
Naftush, while I’m generally on your side of this discussion, I do want to point out that if Popa is right, it wouldn’t be considered a Chessed that that mishna is talking about. Chessed, like all other things, needs to be within the framework of Halacha. (Again, not that I disagree with you, but ??????, what you’re saying is not a rebuttal.) And chessed can have another meaning, too – quite relevant to our discussion, in fact.
I dont get you guys. Nothing happens when you say good shabbos.
you dont suddenly fall in love with someone cuz you wished them good shabbos. it just doensnt happen. at least in my opinion.
It always starts with something small. First its a GS. The next time it includes a wink. Later its a shmooze. And before you know it, a full blown relationship.
It always starts with something small. First its a GS. The next time it includes a wink. Later its a shmooze. And before you know it, a full blown relationship.
No, not if you’re a mature, responsible adult.
Not only do I say “Good Shabbos” to people I see in the street, I also say “Good morning” and “Good evening” to the bus drivers I see every day when I get on/off the bus. Never once has it resulted in a wink, a shmooze or a “full-blown relationship.”
The Wolf
No, not if you’re a mature, responsible adult.
1) Not everyone is “a mature, responsible adult.” Precaustions are needed because some are not as mature. 2) Even “a mature, responsible adult” cannot trust himself on issues of inter-gender interactions, without precautions.
Not only do I say “Good Shabbos” to people I see in the street, I also say “Good morning” and “Good evening” to the bus drivers I see every day when I get on/off the bus. Never once has it resulted in a wink, a shmooze or a “full-blown relationship.”
You rarely if ever see the same bus driver on your morning route again. The threat is somewhat lessened as a result. Someone you see regularly, you need greater precautions.
No, not if you’re a mature, responsible adult.
Since when are romantic relationships “immature”?
it recalled the concept of chessed as something that has no ????? — something we should do without calculating. “
Nice point.
Shlishi, I always use to get the same drivers on the bus or train, given that i took the same route every day. I always said good morning. That resulted in a bus driver who already had begun to drive off, stopping several yards down the block, when he saw me in his side mirror, crossing the street trying frantically to catch the bus. He recognized me, and was kind enough to stop for me. I flashed him a most grateful smile. And nothing more.
Gregaaron — correctly you say, “Chessed, like all other things, needs to be within the framework of Halacha.” A framework leaves space for freedom up to boundaries on all sides. Halacha usually does the same. My dispute, and it’s a big one, is not with halacha but with people who repudiate the freedom and see only non-negotiable boundaries — who narrow the derekh so severely that one can hardly avoid going off.
Why is it so taboo to just use a little seichel? There should really not be 4 whole pages worth of debate on this issue. Forget the shidduch-crisis, there’s an emergency common-sense-crisis.
I’m a day late and a dollar short to this discussion. I won’t answer yes, or no to the question posed by this thread, I will say that the Rav of my shul, when he passes my wife in the street, says good morning, afternoon or whatever is appropriate at that time, and if she sees him first she extends the gretting first. When I see the rebbetzin or vice versa we do the same.
Also, to the wolf who chastised himself for inquiring about the welfare of his wife and daughters, may I direct you towards the sfas emes on the mishna in avos (I don’t know if this is a stand alone perush on avos, or it is mentioned in another sefer of his, I’m sure searching the bar ilan CD or whatever these digital otzer hasfarim are called will find you the source) “al tarbeh sicha im haisha” where he explains the difference between the hebrew words sicha and dibbur.
Since when are romantic relationships “immature”?
I wasn’t talking about (responsible) romantic relationships. Shlishi seems to think that it’s inevitable that if you say Good Shabbos, it’s going to lead to a full-blown affair. My point was that mature, reasonable adults know how to say “Good Shabbos” without taking it any further.
My comment there had nothing to do with romance.
The Wolf
Also, to the wolf who chastised himself for inquiring about the welfare of his wife and daughters, may I direct you towards the sfas emes on the mishna in avos (I don’t know if this is a stand alone perush on avos, or it is mentioned in another sefer of his, I’m sure searching the bar ilan CD or whatever these digital otzer hasfarim are called will find you the source) “al tarbeh sicha im haisha” where he explains the difference between the hebrew words sicha and dibbur.
That’s all nice and well, but I’m not talking aobut talking to the people in question (which is where sicha vs. dibbur comes into play), but even asking about their welfare through others. The Shulchan Aruch says very plainly — “Ain Shoalim B’shlom Isha K’lal” — no exceptions. I can’t ask how my mother is doing, my stepmother, my grandmother, my sister, my nieces or my daughter. The SA makes no such distinctions/exceptions to the rule and, in fact, adds the word “K’lal” — which (to me at least) emphasizes the fact that there are no exceptions.
And, since I’m going to continue to do so anyway (since I *do* love these people dearly and I *need* to know what’s going on in their lives and how they’re doing), then I’m clearly a rasha, a deviant and a pervert.
The Wolf
I didn’t see the mechaber inside, but I’m willing to bet “klal” doesnt mean “no females”, rather those females who you are forbidden to, you should not under any circumstance inquire about them. But hey, you won’t find my commentary on the side of the shulchan aruch.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.