Saving shul seats, sidurrim for others not yet here

CTL: When you’re a guest in another shul, especially one you don’t have a relative (or other acquaintance) in and you’re not too familiar with, where do you sit?

Reb,

Zochim l’adom, one can acquire for someone else, even if one does not need for himself, BUT only if lo chav l’acherim, it does not cause damage/harm for others.”

There is no such concept as “Zochin” in this regard – it is not exactly hefeker that there are “kinyanim” etc. involved. It belongs to the shul i.e. to people as a whole – all are partners and whoever arrives to shul to use it . You have no “Baalus” in any sense other than actually using it.

See Shulchan Aruch YD 226:1 regarding the concept and ‘geder’ of a BHM”D that its really a shutfos, (See T”Z and Shach there.) consequently, it can only be “his” as long as he is ‘using it.

http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=yd_x6630

I am almost sure I saw Rav Cham K saying the above, but once again, it is difficult to rely on these Rav Chaim’s “M’pi haShmuah” psakim going around these days.

@iacisrmma

No you are not violating HIPAA…and neiher and I, we are not healthcare professionals treating my grandson.
They were unable to do the surgery as the ankle is too swollen. They injected sedatives, pushed the bones back into place and constructed and applied a splint. He is restricted to bed with raised foot until surgery will be done (no later than Monday) they will be inserting a plate, not just pins as originally thought.

He is sleeping soundly right now in what had been his great grandmothers’ room. Mrs. CTL and I had made a decision to keep the hospital bed, wheelchair and other equipment figuring it might be needed at one time or another as we age, never expecting it would be used fro a grandchild.

דער מענטש טראַכט און גאָט לאַכט.

Thank you for your thoughts and interest

@Rebbetzin
I both a seat in a specific location. Let’s call it row B seat 6 (a made up location). If the shul expands and adds additional seating, but my physical seat is still where it was, then that is my seat.
If the shul wanted to remodel and move seats and rows (adding 10 feet might change where the bimah would be located to keep it central) then the shul would have to negotiate with owners of life interest in specific seats. The shul could not just move a purchased seat.

I don’t see such a thing happening, as I’ve said before most suburban shuls were built for the baby boom of the 50s and 60s and have far more seats than needed today.

my question is how do we respond to someone standing in the street holding a parking spot for someone who is still about 20 minutes away? can i push in or must i drive off?

Rebyossel: It depends on which jurisdiction you are in and attempting to park in a spot where there is another yid attempting to exercise chazakah over a public parking space for his Shver who is still 20 minutes away. In general, if you can gently ease into the space and push him up on the curb with your front fender without inflicting injury, you can avoid criminal liability. However in Utah, Alabama, Kentucky and the District of Columbia, the initial contact between your vehicle and the parkingspotsitter could put you in public housing (aka the local jail).

@Rebbetzin
Thanks for your good wishes for my grandson’s recovery.
The discussion of the Chasam Sofer is interesting, but my days of arguing the theoretical really ended when I left Yeshiva for university and law school. As an attorney I deal in the concrete facts of the situation.As we say the theoretical is not ripe, it could not be brought for a prospective judgment.

Small town synagogue life is far different than big city shtieblach. Everything is more regimented and seats, tables, siddurim, chumashim, machzorim outnumber the congregants. Young people tend not to return to raise their families and we see many synagogues close and sell off or give away their belongings.

Just this year, a major MO Hungarian shul less than 20 minutes from here closed and was demoished and senior living apartments are being built on its site. Mrs. CTL grew up in that shul and when we were in high school there were 500 member families, a Rav, asst. Rabbi, educational director, Hebrew School and Day school. As of a year ago they couldn’t get a regular minyan. The suburb is still white and Jewish, just not frum. The next generations moved away to NY, Baltimore, EY, etc.

“There is baalus, because if the siddur is put down – no one can grab it (or if you stand for Boruch Sh’Ama”

Great points, but מהיכי תיתי? ( and nice comparison reagarding פאה)
Perhaps one may grab it and there is nothing you can do, other than say the one is lacking in Midos?

If you read the first link i posted in YD regarding ones rights to a השתמשות in a shul, you will see its not so simple what status one has, as far as baalos goes. It most likely works with שותפות and ברירה, meaning it is yours as a partnership as long as you are using it, but that is NOT a kinyan, it is only an indication like ברירה on the existing shutfos..

“And no one better not touch my kugel once it is in my plate (kinyan chotzer ha’mishtameres)!”

Absolutely agree with that (and am not even looking at your kugel! – though am not sure if a plate has a Chatzor status especially in a shul!) However, a major diff from a siddur or place; kugel was meant to be taken and to eat i.e. as yours ro keep by the giver, whereas, a siddur is meant ro be as an השתמשות only not ro keep. Hence, there won’t be any kinyanim involved.

Somehow it remindw be…There is an old שאלה if someone is a guest ane receives food at the table, if he can he מקדש an אשה with the portion..

What about the Boston minhag of leaving a chair on the road to reserve a parking spot?

Reb.

“I think also there is a kinyan of “ani ha’mehapech b’charara” (a poor person circling around a food item) and kinyan daled amos b’r’shus ha’rabbim ”

May Hashem bless you! you are gevaldig, and an outstanding Lamdan (or lamdanit)!!

However, both of these are not applicable in the case of siddurim and seats.

עני המהפך בחררה — asides its limited parameters and conditions, as is a major maclokes Rishonim, Rab Tam’s shitah is known, that it does not apply wherein there is no other of the item in concern, (e.g hefker: the aggressor can not obtain the item via a diff matter — its free) it only applies to מכר where the Ani can say: go find yourself a diff ילך וישתכר במקום אחר” why mines!

So in this case, where there are no siddurim left etc, he can not utilize the taynah of עני מהפך בחררה. Lfi R Tam. Now even Rashi in this case, where there are no kinyanim involved and, not יורד לתוך אומנות חבירו Ani meHapech is לכאורה not applicable, siddurim and seats are only an zchus השתמשות and I don’t think that was included in the takaneh of עני מהפך בחררה..

“Gaon, Can you agree with me that my plate is “keli shel lo’kayach b’rishus mocher” that is koneh for the lo’kayach,”

As stated above, ‘kugel’ is a diff category, as its meant for the taker to keep (for the lomdim: it might depend if you can be mekadesh one with it) and thus you can be Zocheh with any kinyan. Now given the shul has a status of חצר של שניהם (see CM 340: ?) you would be correct!

“turn my back for a second, and the prized kugel is missing! Maybe someone was moreh heter that I was not koneh it!”

Forget about that you made הגבהה…but the ultimate chuzpah to take from the Rebitzins plate!!
I guess its a דור של חוצפה יסגא!!

There is a minhag in some shuls to have TWO talesim……one to wear and the other to periodically lay down on open seats near you to save them for mishpacha that will be arriving later. Some families seem to have a “designated early davener” whose mission is to arrive before baruch she’amar and stretch out the tallis for those who typically don’t show up until shmoneh esreh.

We are seeing the siman mentioned in the last mishna in maseches Sotah of what will happen before Moshiach comes.. Zekenim Yaamdu – the older people will be standing, why? Mipney ketanim, because the kids grabbed their seats before they could get there. So we know that we’re holding right before Moshiach comes.

Thinking it over, it is not simple. If he leaves the food over without touching it, it can be reused. If he tastes it and leaves it over, it loses its vakue. If he removes a piece into another plate to eat, the rest can be reused. He should be able to be mekadesh with the piece he removed.

How is it that some posters are saying that they are saving seats for their wife? Are they davening in a shul without a mechitza?