Saving shul seats, sidurrim for others not yet here

I’ve never seen a shul short on siddurim.

If my seat has my nameplate on it showing that I have purchased it, NO ONE has richus to be seated, even if I don’t show up until Adon Olam.
I have no problem with a person holding seats at kiddush so that his wife/kids have time to join him and be seated as a family. That does NOT mean entering the kiddush hall in advance of the congregation to reserve the seats. Unless we are sponsoring the kiddush or attending a simcha such as a Bar Mitzvnch , we don’t stay for the food, we leave after the Rav makes kiddush. We eat lunch at home, not shul.

I’m old fashioned, I think kiddush should be wine, kichel, grape juice and maybe some fresh fruit.

@Rebbitzen
I made no mention of taking food. It is only proper to take food not for yourself if it is to feed an elderly or infirm adult who is unable to do so, or a parent putting food onto the plate of a young child who should not be taking it him/herself.
These types of kiddushes with the heavy cooked food are not the norm in our OOT shuls.
In fact I had a run in years ago with the Rebbitzen of my shul in my previous town. She was heard announcing to her 8 children that they should eat plenty at the kiddush, because she was not serving Shabbos lunch when they got home.
The executive board had a discussion with the Rabbi after that about this unacceptable behavior.

BTW>>>>unlike many shtieblach, our suburban synagogues do not have a shortage of seating space (or food). Attendees are generally members. Seats being saved at kiddush are so that a family may be seated together, not to get a seat while others have to stand.

It sounds like you attend a shul with ill-bred and ill-behaved people

CTL who are they to tell a Rov what to do?

@1
where did I write the board told a Rov what to do?
I’ll give 1000 dollars tzedaka if you can point that out
I wrote the board had a discussion about unacceptable behavior by his wife

The Rav is an employee of the congregation and serves at their pleasure. When his contract was up it was not renewed for a number of reasons.

This could all be avoided if people in a shul welcomed guests and helped them find a seat, siddur or anything else they might need.

This could be avoided if a shul with 40 seats and 38 regular mispallelim was expecting an additional 25 mispallelim for a simcha, planned accordingly by bringing in extra chairs and/or siddurim. If there is no physical space to do so, that is poor planning on the part of the baal simcha.

Why should you consider it chutzpah for a kid to have a seat? It sounds like you consider it that way because that’s how you were raised. Maybe you were raised wrong?

Reb G. – in my youth I attended a shul with seats as CTL described, and rights to the seat were decided by the shuls Board of Directors to be that the seat with your name is yours and you have the right to ask someone to please move to another empty seat. So simply put, it depends what the board of directors decided when they sold the seats. In the shul where I presently daven, a person purchases his seat for the year and that seat is reserved shabbos or Yom Tov morning until yishtabach (again decided by the board).

apushatayid: as I wrote in another thread discussing this subject, we have two charts in two different places in the shul showing the seat that are sold and those that are “open”. If a person is having a simcha, they are expected to be there before brochos and help seat their guests.

@Rebbetzin
Don’t try to argue law with an attorney, you have not read the contract for sale of the seat. Not only have I read it, I wrote it along with a property attorney and a Superior Court Judge.

I purchased a life tenancy, so no I can’t take it home. Anyone using it without my permission is not a tenant as you suppose (erroneously) but a SQUATTER subject to immediate eviction.

Your suppositions that: “A shul extends an open invitation to all visitors to enter and use their facility. This implied invitation allows visitors to become “tenants” in “your” empty seat. As the “landlord” (with very limited property rights) you cannot merely evict the tenant because you showed up!

I am explaining this at length because this is a common misconception in shuls when people claim rights to “their” seats.” is FALSE. Our shul has signs in the lobby instructing visitors/guests to see an usher or gabbai for seating and that seats with nameplates are not to be used without permission,
I f I know I’ll not e in shul on a given day, I infirm the gabbai, and as my agent he may let someone use my seat.

The $5,000 I paid for my seat 30 years ago doesn’t relieve me of paying annual dues.
The congregation is a private entity and as such may adopt its own rules, you can’t make blanket statements based on other synagogues’ practices.

Can we all agree there is no “general” rule about saving seats…as CT lawyer correctly notes, its 100 percent local minhag. Having said that, there are certain non-legalistic concerns (for those whose property law 101 and 1L contract law credentials are dated or non-existant) that some feel should always apply relative to both the optics and common sense practices of “hoarding” seats, siddurim, food during Kiddush etc. Its not always what it appears so the advice to consult the gabbai or one of the daveners as to minhag ha’makom should guide your actions, and more importantly, your REACTIONS to the behavior of others.

Is that supposed to imply that a Rav is ice cream but does not have flavor? If it does, is that an insult?

Syag it’s because you’ll find an attitude in MO shuls that a Rov is a simple employee.

Yep. Its Adar.

@Rebbetzin
You don’t seem to be willing to understand that there are no shortage of seats for kiddush at our shul. The only seat saving I condone is so that a family may sit together. I would prefer that Yankele save 6 seats so that when Ima and the babies come into the social hall the family sits together and both parents tend to the kids, than have three youngsters parked in single empty eats at otherwise adult tables.

As for hoarding or grabbing quantities of food that is unacceptable. We are a bit more upscale than many shuls, if there is a kiddush with more than kichel, wine, juice there will be paid staff from the caterer serving the food, no one will be grabbing 6 pieces of kugel. Someone may have two plates in his hands, one for himself and one for an elderly or infirm relative who is already seated. The servers would place one piece on each plate……period.

I never said it is okay to hoard limited quantity items, getting a plate for an elderly or infirm person is not hoarding.

B”H neither food or seating is stretched to the limits in our shul.

To quote my deceaed OMA, it soundslike the people behaving that way in the shuls you frequent sound like ‘peasants from the east’

Kids who come to Shul to daven get to sit before people who come just for kiddush.

… In fact, I now remember when the rebbe of a shteibel where we davened years ago, mentioned it before his rebbetzin’s kugel was brought in every Shabbos ” No children should be seated before the adults” he said. Then we wonder about lack of respect for parents, rabeiim and teachers.

I was shocked to learn how many things are considered “Chav L’Acharinei” – this includes saving seats for someone, taking extra food for someone, etc. It is ossur to “reserve” things for one person, when others will lose out in the process.

I think the better seats should be given to the elderly, or as a privilege of the people who arrive early. I have no issue with someone saving a seat while his wife is taking the child to the restroom, so a family can sit together. Other than that, there should be a 5-10 minute limit on seat-holding. I cannot stand when someone holds a few seats for a friend who may not arrive, or worse, whispers back and forth.

As far as the rule that all adults should sit first, it is not easy to keep a child still if they are not sitting. (Perhaps not all children, I had 2 with special needs). I know there are different rules for different shuls, and not everyone is as considerate as CTLawyer when they are not going to be there. But really, consideration for others would solve most of these problems.

Just last week I was in a waiting room when an elderly couple walked in, and 1 seat remained. It bothered me tremendously that the teen girl and her mother that were already seated barely glanced up from their phone and magazine. I stood and could only hope that the girl noticed that people out there would be kind to a stranger, but I know it is rare today.

@AviK
I am not writing about pother shuls that have other rules, or what went on in Germany decades before either of us were born.
I wrote about the contract for sale of a seat and its privileges in my own synagogue.
My mother’s side was German, arriving in the USA from Bavaria in 1868. I was brought up that if you are not punctual it is rude and unacceptable. The last time I was late to shul was first day R”H 5778 because my MIL was niftara the previous evening and I would not leave Mrs. CTL until our daughters had arrived to her, then I went to shul where my sons, sons in law and older grandchildren were in the family seats.

Every shul is an independent organization that may have a board that sets rules, others are fiefdoms run by the will of the Rav. What we don’t have is a diocese system such as the Catholic Church that sets standard rules to be followed by every constituent parish.

Every Jew may join or not join the synagogue of his/her choice providing they meet the requirements set for membership. Once a member they are free to get involved and reach a position that helps set policy.

I grew up in a shul that had open seating, I prefer assigned/purchased seats. That said I often willingly give up my seat in advance for scheduled simchas.
Unlike shteiblach, I am speaking about a seat in the sanctuary (which has hundreds of fixed pew seats) NOT the minyan room, which seats 60 and is first come first served (except for the Rav’s seat).

ct: hopefully i am not violating HIPPA, how did your grandson’s surgery go? are the dr’s optimistic that the pin will heal the ankle properly?