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ROB- again, you have proven my point, that the negativity associated with back of the bus shtams froms an american, rosa parks education. Nechomah said it best.
There’s a reason why they were sent to the back of the bus. It is inherently demeaning.
again, the bus thing is only because we were raised that way. the women dont feel that way. ay, you think they do? they still dont. they are not sent to the back, they sit in the back. and they dont view it a demeaning. civilty is vaiter something being dictated by those who decided it isnt civil.
Even Naniach your point, since some of those to whom it is being applied do have an education, know about Rosa Parks and do feel discriminated against (as opposed to those who don’t care, or who don’t have an education), shouldn’t the order be changed? Even if it is a matter of perception, perception is the Ikkar (especially when you want cooperation regarding the draft and funding of Yeshivos). A compromise on a point that L’Halacha makes no Nafkei Mina anyway can go a long way in opening opportunities for Charaidim getting what they want in other areas.
“that the negativity associated with back of the bus shtams froms an american, rosa parks education”
And the fact that so many commenters here don’t get that speaks rather poorly on Torah education. Gedolim have sat next to women on subways in Europe and America for over a century.
GAW- im not arguing with that. im arguing with those who claim to be the protectors and advocates for all women, when they argue a point that the women they claim to represent couldnt care less. like ROB.
CH- come again?
Charlie,
I cannot for the life of me figure out how your comment is responsive to Toi.
“Gedolim have sat next to women on subways in Europe and America for over a century.”
Have you seen this (Other than Avi Weiss)?
It is well known that R Shlomo Zalman Auerbach would stand up if a women sat next to him. (he did it in a respectful manner, none the less he would get up)
“Gedolim have sat next to women on subways in Europe and America for over a century.”
1) Were there really subways in Europe?
2) Which Gadol sat next to a woman for over a century? (that’s sitting in one place for 100+ years)
I did forget one last item. When mehadrin buses became “popular” Egged even went to the extent of having a “puncher” hooked up in the back section of the bus so that women could simply punch their own cartissia. Now that everybody has to use a RavKav, things have become more problematic because yes, we do have to get on the front of the bus in order to pass the RavKav through the reader in order to pay for our ride on the bus. Walking through a crowded men’s section does sort of defeat the purpose, but I have been known to ask the driver for permission to get off at the next step that there are passengers getting on and getting back on at the back door (I simply don’t want him to close the door before I have to chance to get back on the bus), this way avoiding any unnecessary contact.
I think the issue of the back of bus being inherently demeaning is putting the cart before the horse. Was the back of the bus demeaning before the blacks were allowed to sit only in that part of the bus? I don’t think so.
Why can’t men sit at the back versus the women? I think I heard once that since people are usually looking towards the front of the bus in order to make sure that they get off at the correct stop, if the front section has women dressed pritzusdig, then what purpose did separating us have other than not sitting one next to the other? This is obviously not the only problem that exists vis-a-vis men and women.
I have no doubt that R’ Shlomo Zalman got up if a woman tried to sit next to him.
The original posting in this thread referred to some hareidim dancing in a memorial fountain. YNET (a leading hiloni, meaning anti-frum) site now questions that these were really hareidim, noting that the people undressed in public which is very rare for hareidim.
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In American, if women are situated so men are staring at them (sometimes referred to as a “meat market” approach to dating) it is considered harassment of the women. Note that the objection is to separate seating, not to who sits where. In fact many cultures have separate seating options in public transportation – its considered a way to protect women.
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Remember that we are descended from someone who was a radical extremist, accused of heresey and high treason by his countryman, considered a betrayer of the family’s cult, thrown into a fire and finally exiled to a remote no-mans land. You may not like it, but extremism in defense of doing the right thing is a family trait going back 4000 years.
Nechomah- you said-
“I think the issue of the back of bus being inherently demeaning is putting the cart before the horse. Was the back of the bus demeaning before the blacks were allowed to sit only in that part of the bus? I don’t think so.”
you are good at this.
ROB- So bikitzur you have no real argument other than your guarantees. well, the i present a perfectly better argument, i guarantee you it doesnt bother them, and my wife thinks so too, so i also conducted a survey.
But I also conducted a survey (i am a woman so i have access to more women) and I know many women whom it does offend. I guarantee there are some women who don’t care either way and I guarantee you there are women who are happy to ‘help the men’. However I promise you, and i am someone who tried to be makpid on my word, that there are women who are bothered and feel like second class citizens because we are sent to the back.
Nechoma 402 is mehadrin.
If a man does not want to sit next to a woman, he should move away. Why is the onus on the women to move?? There is no issue of negiah or yichud on a public bus. Are there any REAL halachic issues with sitting next to a woman on a bus?
there have also been some very public incidents of chareidim insulting or even chas v’sholom abusing women that refuse to move. Is that okay? Are frum jews allowed to insult and name-call israelis that don’t want to move? Toi, would you call a woman a shikseh if she didn’t move from the front? Because that has happened on these busses over and over again.
If a man does not want to sit next to a woman, he should move away. Why is the onus on the women to move??
Right. And if almost everyone who uses the bus line wants to sit seperately, then the easiest way to facilitate that is to simply make one end for men and the other end for women.
And then if either a man or a woman accidentally sits on the wrong end, then you politely tell them of the system. And if they are normal and respect you, they will move instead of the entire rest of the bus having to sit not the way they want.
And if a man or a woman deliberately sits on the wrong end because she has an agenda against the way that almost everyone who rides the bus thinks is the proper way to practice their religion–then yes, I would call them shkotzim and force them to move.
ROB- by chiloni provocateurs?
interjection- again, its because of how you were taught to view the back of the bus. just like an israeli school kd wouldnt understand what being sent to the corner means, those who are blissfully ignorant of americas segregated history just consider the back of the bus the part not closer to the front.
I have a simple solution. They should move the women to the front of the bus and the men to the back.
You don’t get it. There are 50 mehadrin bus lines in Israel. People take those busses because simply don’t know that they are separate.
Why do you assume that everyone is out to get the chareidim? Most of the women that got beat up and insulted were not “provocateurs” or anything- they were just women riding the bus!
Either way, egged and dan are public bus companies. If the chareidim have a problem, they should create their own private bus company. Until then, they shouldn’t be allowed to pressure secular bus authorities to accomodate extremists who don’t even hold by rav moshe’s kulah.
You are making a couple of wrong assumptions, and one egregious false accusation.
Why do you assume that everyone is out to get the chareidim? Most of the women that got beat up and insulted were not “provocateurs” or anything- they were just women riding the bus!
There were not any women that got beat up, and certainly not a large number like you imply. That is your egregious false accusation.
And the women who are the cause the problem are provocateurs who are doing it on purpose, and willingly admit as much. They think they are Rosa Parks.
Either way, egged and dan are public bus companies. If the chareidim have a problem, they should create their own private bus company. Until then, they shouldn’t be allowed to pressure secular bus authorities to accomodate extremists who don’t even hold by rav moshe’s kulah.
That is your mistaken assumption. They tried to create their own bus company, but the government does not allow it because Egged is granted a monopoly on their lines by the state. HTH.
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