Sadly, the extremism continues…

Those ultra-secular extremists, such as Lapid, are really getting out of line. Publicly saying their goal is to bankrupty 10% of the population solely because he doesn’t approve of their religion. Trying to use the army to coerce them into giving up their religion, even though the generals who defend the country say they want no part of using their army to be a tool of religious coercion – especially as it would seriously weaken the army by undermining unit cohesion which has been shown to be a key factor in military operations.

If these extremists aren’t stopped, the end result will be that Israel will be put into a very awkward situation of having to explain to its supporters, not to mention hostile “neutrals”, why they are engaging in religious persecution in violation of international law, and how Israel can claim any rights as a “Jewish” state that most of the world believes was founded to protect the religious freedom of Jews, when religious Jews are the ones Israel persecutes.

If the extremists aren’t stopped, The zionist enterprise may be doomed. And at this point, it appears that only the Religious Zionists are in a position to stop these anti-Jewish extremists. And if not, this might be a very good time for those who wish stay in Eretz Yisrael to get Arabic lessons.

A couple of years ago, by the RBS insanity, many chareidim were saying that there is no need to condemn the sikrikim, that these are a bunch of lunatics, that no one supports them, etc. Now that we are suffering the blow-back, we are wringing our hands about gezeiros, etc.

The CR bloggers can and will blame Hertzl, Ben Gurion, or whomever they want and rant about Zionist conspiracies. Some think that if they write twenty posts saying that Zionists are wrong, it constitutes a logical thought.

Bottom line, if we are nasty to others, it will come back to harm us. We need more Kiddush Hashem and less Chilul Hashem. It really is very simple.

If you guys hate the hareidim so much, why do you want to give them guns and have them watch your back? It’s surprising that instead of drafting hareidim, you would want a law prohibiting them for bearing arms. You consider it a privilege to ignore the draft yourselves (note that most secular avoid the IDF, usually moving overseas if needed, which is where most hiloni Israeli citizens live).Just leave them alone in their own little ghettos to live their own lives unmolested.

All they want is to be left alone. They are going on to the Tel Aviv-Haifa bus and demanding that the hilonim dress modestly – they just want to run their own buses, their way, preferably without you hilonim meddling.

Thank you rabbi of berlin. Your sincerity really oozes through and we can very much see that you care so much about the chareidi tzibur and how it is viewed.

PBA, your criticism is both inappropriate and incorrect. Supporters of charedim have no right to determine the validity of other people’s concern. But even if they did, it’s simply wrong to assume that the concern comes from some sort of unjustified dislike of charedim.

Nor is this “vilif[ication] of an entire community base [sic] on the misdeeds of a few.” The frum media universally misrepresents what the current government is asking for. The frum media is not “a few”, they are seen to speak for charedi leadership. There is also the often raised but never refuted argument that rabbonim are perfectly capable of standing up for things that bother them, and in fact do so all the time when people do things like ride bikes, get phones with text messaging, and open competing batei din. That no mainstream frum rav has seen fit to address any of the above infractions says something about where their concerns lie.

I have yet to see a single poster here explain why or provide any semi- legitimate explanation.

Rav Shteinman washed his hands of the whole business and has declared the only derech is to increase learning. He also is Rov in Beni Brak, and the “Chalmis” don’t follow him. It would be like asking the head Mormon to condemn the Catholic Church priest scandal.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/where-are-the-manhigim#post-476547

Rob you said-“Toi- if you are referring to my pointing out the extremism of some chareidim, so be it. Far from me to paint every cvhareidi with the same brush. On the contrary, I sympathize with many chareidim ,being one ,by the way! However, one has to logical and recognize that trhe other side has valid arguments too.”

but before you said

“In one day, we have three different accounts that put chareidim in a very bad light (bus, fountain, frum soldier accosted). If the chareidi leadership will not rein in these extemists, we will see more hatred towards chareidim and more measures by the general public, who feel that the chareidim are putting themselves “michutz lamachaneh”.

So i think you are schizophrenic.

Following this bus incident, and in honor of this 34th Johrzeit on Friday Ov 26th as reported on YWN, I made a special point this Shabbos of singing Shir haMa’alos to the wonderful tune of haTikva. The words of Psalm 126, fit so beautifully to the tune of haTikva.

ROB- you said”If you want to have women at the back of the bus,organize your own bus lines. Till then, buses are for everyone and no one should be forced to move to the back.”

thats an interesting point. an ironic one too. the the chareidim have repeatedly attempted to organize private companies so that these things wouldnt be an issue. what happened, you ask? what happenede was that because egged has a fat monopoly on anything to do with buses, they were able to ensure that the chareidi buses failed any inspections and couldnt recieve any certifications needed to operate. thereby forcing everyone to use egged. thereby ensuring a continuation of conflict.

you also said”As far as the fountain goes, would you like if chilonom come and make merry in your beth medrash?”

the comparison is ridiculous. of course i believe in respecting others’ feelings and not antagonizing another, but this fountain has no inherent kedusha, has no halachic status. the water and stones are nothing. whereas a beis medrash has many halachos that apply to it.

i do agree with the points about attacking frum soldiers and spitting on little girls, but it is important to recognize that the perpetrators of these acts are not chareidim, they are wackos. say i call them ‘super-chareidm’ will you leave us alone?

I view it as demeaning and I know many woman who do too. I would much prefer to do as they do in NY where they sit side by side with a curtain in between. I personally get claustrophobic the further back I am so I always like sitting as close to the front as I can. I understand that men may not want to sit NEXT TO a woman but if the issue is that he doesn’t want to see us then I believe it makes more sense to have the men enter in through the back, punch themselves in, and choose the back seats then to choose all the front seats and have the women need to walk through them to get to our seats. Of course if the women had the front seats, there’s not a chance that the seating would stay separate because somehow men would filter their way forward.

I don’t find it demeaning, but I do think it would be better to have it vice-versa. Not because of “kavod” or “dignity”, rather something much more practical… People who are carsick are more carsick in the back of the bus than in the front of the bus. Take a pregnant woman and put her on the back of the bus, and she’ll be throwing up the whole time. When I was a student in Israel, I remember my teacher pointing this out. I wonder if the bus organizers ever thought of this…

interjection- in NY. that is my point.

Some women find it demeaning, others don’t. A more objective point is that those who sit in the back are by definition the last ones off the bus (assuming a bus that is going to one destination, not one with multiple stops).

Toi- not ny nor Lakewood. Still not getting your point.

” What halocho requires (mechitza in shuls and at some functions) you respect, but anywhere else ,it is just a system to keep women “in their place”.”

That’s exactly how I feel. If you want to make up chumrahs let it be on your own cheshbon. Don’t punish me because you wanna be super holy.

I just want to make a couple of points:

1) 402 is NOT a bus that is mehadrin.

2) Intercity Egged buses in Yerushalayim have 3 and some even have 4 doors, all of which are regularly opened and closed at stops, on request from riders if the driver does not open the doors at the very back of the bus.

3) There is absolutely no connotation of “putting women in their place” by having us sit at the back of the buses. Intercity buses are not at all like the NY buses where the sits are the same on both sides of the bus except opposite the back door. Here, there are single seats on buses designed for handicapped access, some buses have more seats in the front than others meaning that many men would have to stand in the front of the bus. I live in an area where people attempted to make the new bus route be mehadrin, but due to the construction of the bus and the seating, there is some mixing, but people do try to sit separately if possible.

While I do think that men could and should take a little responsibility and avoid looking at places that they shouldn’t, people can only take responsibility for their own actions/thoughts, so I would still rather not cause someone to be nichshol and would rather sit at the back if necessary to prevent that.

Just as a side note, I was on a bus that comes from a newish chareidi neighborhood and goes through a chiloni neighborhood. The askonim in the chareidi neighborhood worked tirelessly for an extended period of time to get properly established bus route(s) to the chareidi neighborhood, which at the same time have benefitted the chiloni neighborhoods immensely. These same chilonim had been given buses by Egged for the last 30 years that ended up being packed like sardines every time one left the vicinity. There was one bus per hour for each of 3 major neighborhoods in this vicinity and each one was packed to the gills and had tremendously long, winding routes before reaching the destination. Now that the chareidim came, they put much pressure on Misrad HaTachburah to fulfill the previously determined plan to bring a new bus company to the area and they finally succeeded. They added an additional 3 bus lines and greatly increased the total number of buses traveling to and from each neighborhood in the vicinity throughout the day. The fact that the buses coming from the chareidi neighborhood are full testifies to the fact that there are many people without cars who rely on public transportation and would indicate a need for more buses, but definitely not fewer.

Now this chiloni lady who sat opposite me says to me that it’s “lo beseder” that all of the buses come from the chareidi neighborhood already full. She said (beshem someone else that I could not understand) that we should worry for our own selves. The thrust of her comment was that we should not be on the buses that are for their neighborhood because we take up the whole bus. I would have very happily told her that we should cancel the bus that she was on and she simply would have had to wait for another 20 minutes before a different bus would pass by her stop. Can anyone explain to me this logic? By the way, no one told her to sit at the back of the bus.

truthsharer- you’re mixing apples and oranges. This is not about improper thoughts. Men can see women on these busses no problem. In Israel buses tend to get very crowded, and it’s better not to have men and women mixed together in crowded situations. I think the men should be at the back of the bus though, instead of the women. That way a woman who’s nauseous doesn’t have to be the only woman among all the men.