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I don’t doubt there are Modern Orthodox shuls where most women cover their hair. What people have to remember is that there are a ton of Modern Orthodox shuls all over the country (not just in the areas with good communities like NY, NJ) where they are the only Orthodox shul in town. In these places, tznius is totally off the radar. When the only other Jews in town are reform, all you have to do is not wear short-shorts to be “super machmir” on tznius.
On my “before it was cool” comment. What I mean is that I was criticizing her geirus before everyone on the internet was.
Picture this hypothetical: you’re a serious convert, and you find that the beis din you’re using converted the daughter of a high profile figure who is now going around publicly speaking in sleeveless shirts and uncovered hair. You want to change to another beis din, but you can’t because the Zionists have pigeon holed all conversions to go through the left-wing RCA.
I heard a rumor (probably more likely than the OP’s rumor) that Ivanka didn’t actually go through a Rabbanut recognized beis din. Not sure if that’s true.
Neville, it’s not true that the Rabbanut requires all conversions to go through RCA batei din. If you look on the Rabbanut’s list you’ll see there are some independent (non-RCA) charedi-oriented batei din like Toronto and Milwaukee.
Neville, you’ve made very good contributions to this thread providing your perspective as a convert to Judaism. Thank you. You’ve also made very accurate comments on the state of Modern Orthodoxy in America today.
I believe yytz is correct. The Israeli rabbanut, for what they’re worth, accepts American Chareidi non-RCA/GPS conversions.
Regarding the topic at hand, be it known that I’ve made what you describe as “before it was cool” comments right here in this CR years ago, long before her father ran for president. Most didn’t make it past the censors but you might find some from back then. That said, I’m not sure why you think it is cool now; where other than here do you see these points being made?
I agree with you that she almost certainly didn’t utilize a rabbanut approved or GPS beis din. The claims that she had used such a beis din only hit the internet rumor mill after Donald was well on his way to the White House. (Not that if it had been GPS approved, that point would change the underlying circumstances of the situation.)
My point was that if a convert joins the MO — and follows what many women do — she shouldnt be disqualified as a convert.
I don’t understand that argument (you’re not the first in the thread to make it). If a segment of Modern Orthodoxy doesn’t follow halacha, and a potential giyores only accepts to be like that segment, she hasn’t actually accepted ol mitzvos.
Unless your argument is that because some people who are considered Orthodox don’t keep certain halachos, she assumes that those are not really halachos.
Neville, Orthodox shuls (that is to say they have a mechitza and use an Orthodox siddur) with non-Orthodox members is nothing new. As I posted in the “Pilgrim” thread, immigrants cast of observance straight away for economic reasons. They and their children (when they went to shul- generally for Yizkor out of respect for their parents) wanted the familiar forms of worship because they at least realized that a shul is. However, the people who go to these shuls are not MO. They are non-observant Jews who want a communal setting and have a natural conservative (as opposed to Conservative) outlook. MO is a halachic/hashkafic sheeta.
Maybe its time to say “enough already” and leave the Kushner/Trump family alone. They are what they are and they don’t go around preaching to others about their hashkafah or holding themselves out as role models for yiddeshe families. They have worked closely with the administrators and faculty of the yeshiva where their daughter is a student and parents there have not felt any disruptive effects. Overall, just let them be whoever they want to be and lets focus on our own midos and opportunities for self-improvement.
DY
“Unless your argument is that because some people who are considered Orthodox don’t keep certain halachos, she assumes that those are not really halachos.”
I assumed that is the argument.
IF the kabbalah is real even if the person doesnt know what they are being mekabel, presumably the geirus would work. Isnt that the ultimate Naaseh Venishma.
I am by no means well versed in hilchos geirus, but my understanding is that having them live like frum Jews is relatively new (in fact I beleive some (R’ Akiva Eiger?) say it is assur to teach them Torah before conversion)
Isnt there is a tosfos that discusses a Ger who never heard of hilchos shabbos? Yet geirus was good
(do you know what I am referring to or am I remembering wrong?)Avi K: To your point — in the NY metropolitan area i do not believe there are many modern orthodox shuls left with non orthodox membership. To be sure there are some — but its rare. Its also rare (at least with respect to Ashekenazim) for non orthodox to send to orthodox days schools. (NYC may be an exception). Out of town — in New England — the local day school was almost all non orthodox…not any more.
DosYochid: First, my argument is that “ol” mitzvot means acceptance of mitzvot. You cant say that 1 of the mitzvot is not from Hashem. I guess my problem is does a convert have to go to you personally to find out what their observance should be. That was my original point? Is Cholov Yisroel on the list? Yoshon? Sheitels? No Sheitels? There are some modern orthodox rabbanim who in print — have basically allowed not covering the hair. As an aside, i know personally of a case where a charedi rov told someone a married lady not to cover her hair for shalom bayit reasons. If that was a d’orayta — he could never have poskened that way. And is your argument that a married woman who keeps shabbat but doesnt cover their hair is disqualified? Or a woman who re-heats food in a way that YOU dont approve but follows a daas yachid (sorry — couldnt resist) — is also out. As Rodney Dangerfield once said, “tough crowd.”
Neville: I totally agree with your statement that “tznius is totally off the radar” in certain places. As my kids would say, “its not a thing.”
You people are mostly fools. Instead of being proud of Ivana Trump and her hubby Jared Kushner, you find reasons to bring them down. We are most fortunate that Ivana and Jared decided to assist their not-so-capable father/father in law at the White House. Ivana is a committed Jew and her husband has been raised as a G-d fearing Jew with a love for Israel and the Jewish people. Whether they dont wear sheitels or wear a kippah is insignificant to the Jewish people at this moment. Jared demonstrated his “menschlakite” when he arrives in Israel and goes straight to a Shiva house to show his background. We need to be proud of these two and be happy that they’re in DC showcasing our beliefs. Stop with the stupidity denouncing their moves! We can’t afford them to fail! We need their success!
Sarah, there is a difference between choosing a school and a shul. Parents who are Conservadox might well choose an Orthodox shul for various reasons (close to their home, more spiritual, Conservative goes too far) but send their kids to public school for economic reasons.
Instead of being proud of Ivana Trump
Ivana Trump is not Jewish, and anyone who says otherwise is 100% incorrect.
The Wolf
Sarah, which MO rabbis have put in writing that married women are not required to cover? I was only aware of R’ Broyde’s essay tentatively proposing the potential basis for a heter but not actually paskening that it’s not required.
A rav privately telling a married women not to cover her hair for shalom bayis reasons does not mean it’s not required. When you’re dealing with shalom bayis and especially the issue of married couples when one but not the other is becoming a ba’al teshuvah, leniencies on all kinds of issues (Torah or rabbinic) abound. This is because as a practical matter, if a new BT who had already been married to a chiloni demands to follow all the mitzvos 100% right away, the marriage is over, while if they take things slowly and play their cards right, they can become completely observant by waiting patiently for their spouse to get on board when they’re ready.
Right before a ger finishes their gerus, they are asked if they accept as binding on themselves all the mitzvos, or the entire Torah without reservation, or some such language. If they say yes and mean it, as a normal sincere ger will (and they’re not really thinking at that precise moment, “No, I don’t accept them all, I just accept the mitzvos that people in my community normally follow” or “I don’t really believe in this stuff, I’m just doing this to fit in with the community or get married” or “I only accept those mitzvos I personally believe in” or “I accept all the mitzvos but that one I don’t like”), then the gerus is valid even if they are not 100% observant right after they emerge from the mikvah.
It is possible to accept all the mitzvos as binding without doing them right after the gerus. How do I know this? Because that’s the way gerus was always done in the past! They were taught a little, about a small handful of mitzvos, and then they converted and became observant afterward.
If a ger converted while being confused about what is required and what isn’t (like with headcoverings or whatever), again no problem, as long as they had the sincere general intent to accept all the mitzvos as binding upon themselves.
Of course, normally a ger today should be completely observant after gerus, and if they aren’t it reasonably raises doubts about their intent at the time of gerus. But if for some reason he’s not 100% observant right after gerus for whatever reason, like lack of willpower, lack of knowledge, confusion about what’s required, conforming to the community or spouse or whatever, then that’s unfortunate and wrong (he should have the guts and responsibility to find out what’s required and do it!), but as long as he sincerely accepted all the mitzvos as binding upon himself right before gerus, then his gerus is still valid. Accepting the yoke of the mitzvos doesn’t mean that you commit never to do a single aveira in your entire life — it just means you accept all the mitzvos as binding on you just as they are binding on any born Jew.
You might ask, then why aren’t Conservative gerim valid? As Avi K implied, the main reason is that the rabbis are actually apikorsim and thus are not kosher witnesses.
yytz: Would you argue that if a potential convert was blissfully and earnestly unaware that Judaism prohibits – eating pork, doing labor on Shabbos, having a toeiva partner, having a party on Yom Kippur, and going to church on Sundays with his unconverted parent. And he was honestly led to believe that the main, and perhaps only, requirement of being Jewish is to light two candles every Friday night. And with that misunderstanding goes through a conversion which he celebrates after drying up from the mikva with a party with his new Jewish friends, including his toeiva partner who convinced him to convert as a sign of commitment to him, at Ruth’s Chris Steak House with delicious steak and pork chops. And then the next day lights two beautiful Shabbos candies Friday evening before he heads to his day labor job the following Saturday morning. Followed by his being kibud av by attending church with his father that Sunday.
He, as you said, clearly stated honestly and earnestly that he accepts as binding on himself all the mitzvos, and the entire Torah without reservation. He simply didn’t know all the preceding was kneged halacha.
And his conversion was presided over by left wing Orthodox rabbis, not any who consider themselves Conservative, who did the conversion because they felt it would keep this potential converts Jewish partner within the fold. So they never told him all the halachic prohibitions in order not to scare him away from Judaism.
His conversion is valid?
Wolf, you are motzi shem ra . If you are not a dayan you are paskening without a license. Anyone who says otherwise is 100% incorrect.
Joseph, yes, his conversion is valid (SA YD 268:2 and 12).
@AviK: You wrote, “The autobiography’s of Rav Ovadiah and Rav Elyashiv. . .”
1) autobiographies * (what you wrote means something belonging to the autobiography)
2) autobiographies differ from biographies in as much that the former are written by the one about whom the book was written, while the latter are written be someone else.
3) having said that, did Rav Ovadia and/or Rav Elyashiv write one about themselvesShauli, Mentsch1 wrote that.
Edited
Avi, I think you’re mixing up Ivana and Ivanka.
Avi: Wolf is the designated Tzaddik around here.
He was simply pointing out someone’s error in referring to Ivanka as Ivana.
Now if Ivana truly is Jewish… Oh, wasn’t this the premise of the OP?
YYTZ: To answer your question, in Issue 12 of Conversations R. Marc Angel wrote: “4. Married women need not cover their hair, as long as their hair is maintained in a modest style. The wearing of wigs does not constitute a proper hair-covering for those married women who wish to cover their hair. Rather, such women should wear hats or other head coverings that actually cover their hair.” The article is available on line.
He is not Orthodox. He is Open Orthodox.
Avi: Wolf is the designated Tzaddik around here.
Please don’t do that. Please.
Wolf, you are motzi shem ra .
Fine, I’m a motzei shem ra. I’m also correct. I stand by every word I said. If that makes me a motzei shem ra, so be it.
The Wolf
You mean those (not only chasidim, btw) who hold by Rabbeinu Tam’s zmanim, such as the (second) shkia 58.5 minutes after sunset or 72 minutes after, as per the basic psak of the Mechaber (and Rema) and as practiced in Galicia?
Regarding the “editor’s note” on my post regarding R. Marc Angel where he says “He is not Orthodox. He is open orthodox.” Well — he didnt used to be. 🙂
edited
I admit that thats pure conjecture ….
which is why it is better left unsaid
Mammele. where do I call her Ivana?
Wolf, a motzi shem ra is someone who libels or slanders. therefor, you cannot be a motzi shem ra and correct.
Mod, why all the editing? I know that I did not write anything particularly bad.
AviK:
Blav did here
to which Wolf replied tongue in cheek, and you took the bait fully.Mammela, tzedakt mimeni. Sorry, Wolf.
Ivana Trump is not Jewish, and anyone who says otherwise is 100% incorrect.
Wolf, you are motzi shem ra . If you are not a dayan you are paskening without a license. Anyone who says otherwise is 100% incorrect.
Some people take things too seriously and need to read the posts BEFORE commenting
Sorry I’m not good with the links yet. I was referring to post #1301471 from Blav.
And as a Zdad posted, Wolf repeated the name Ivana in his reply.Jared demonstrated his “menschlakite” when he arrives in Israel
and goes straight to a Shiva house to show his background.According to a newspaper I recently read, it was Jason Greenblatt,
not Jared Kushner, who visited the policewoman’s family.R4, Greenblatt went together with Kushner and David Friedman.
Sorry about that – the article was written in a way that made
it sound like Kushner was doing something else at the time.Sorry guys but as time goes by, it seems their Shabbos observance is rapidly going out the window. No more pretenses about asking shailos.
And yes, I believe converts are held to a higher standard because they presumably CHOSE to take on the mitzvos. If one is quick to throw it all off, their motives are rightfully doubted. We all chose to accept the Torah at Har Sinai, but unfortunately for many there’s that generational disconnect.
Jared’s Jewish heart l, as history has proven, doesn’t bode well for his family’s future Yiddishkeit. Hence we should never give a pass and substitute someone’s good deeds for the Torah’s requirement of basic mitzvah observance. It’s nice that one cares about fellow Jews, but for Yiddishkeit to have staying power a lot more is needed. We can’t turn a blind eye, and surely Beis Din shouldn’t either.
And for those constantly complaining that nothing is being done about those that break the law in our community, there’s definitely more being done than many realize – especially when it comes to education.
Hope the mods will allow this for the sake of quieting the critics (I know it’ll never be enough…)
Dror Free @DrorFreeOrg
·
Jun 22TONIGHT DINA EVENT:
educating our community on legal and buissness topics. in Williamsburg
The continental 75 Rutledge st(Similar symposiums are held annually in other neighborhoods.)
Mammele,
1. Please explain the toelet that will come from this public discussion?
2. please explain why you do not believe in halachic principles such
שעת הדחק, צורך גדול, etc.
3. Please cite your source for gerim being held to a higher standard.
4. Please use a spell check. The word is spelled “business”.Kind of funny to see a guy who wrote “בשבילי נברק העולם” tell someone to check their spelling.
2. please explain why you do not believe in halachic principles such
שעת הדחק, צורך גדול, etc.
Im confused, you beleive these are licenses to do what you want?
They arent a license to do what you want. that bacon looks delicious. Oh great that makes it a ” שעת הדחק, צורך גדול, ” Im going to go eat itDY, it was a Freudian slip. נברק means “polished” or “sent urgently”.
Ubiquitin, if one needs to eat it for pikuach nefesh it is indeed allowed. However, the accusations against the Kushners involve d’rabbanas or even just oovda d’chol for which there is more room for a rav. On the other hand, LH involves many violations of Torah mitzvot as well as curses. MSR is, of course, much worse.
Avi K,
Maybe “buissness” was also a Freudian slip
AviK:
I honestly hate to engage you in conversation as we are coming from two ends of the spectrum, and no matter what I say, I won’t convince you as your mindset is pretty much set in stone, but I’ll try for the sake of all the other readers here. (I’ll break it up in a few posts for readability.)
1. Toeles: All the honest geirim, who struggled to be accepted as sincere and find a Rabbi/Rebetzin to mentor him/her, learned the halachos, became full fledged Jews and made and continue to make serious sacrifices for their Yiddishkeit every day, to them I say Chazak!
We don’t want them to ch”v think that the more politically connected or rich one is the less is required of them. In other words it’s all G-d forbid a sham.
Additionally, the claim that none of us will be meshadech with their kids is ludicrous. We are all related, and Kol Yisroel areivim zeh lezeh. If you go to any random Jewish wedding and don’t find someone you have a familial connection with, that would be more of a chiddush… Their kids so far go to Orthodox day schools and can end up leaning either way in their Yiddishkeit – and marry accordingly.
If we let everyone do as they please when it comes to geirus, we might seriously need to institute yichus certificates in Orthodox America.
2. Of course I do, but they are not blank checks. A huge chunk of American Jewry assimilated in the early waves of immigration, partly because people felt they needed to work on Shabbos TO LITERALLY PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE.
Anyone trying to give them the benefit of the doubt can no longer do so. As I mentioned, they are no longer pretending to ask shailos, and honestly, who thinks attending a political wedding necessitates violating Shabbos for, or finding leniencies such as it’s “only a chartered bus, and we’re not the ones driving?”.
There’s a story I heard which I was reluctant to share as I didn’t know all the details, but due to its relevance I’m opting to share it now. (Please excuse my vagueness, and if anyone can fill in the specifics, I’d appreciate it.)
Some decades ago, while bombs were aimed at Israel, a certain Rabbi (whom I’ll refer to as Rabbi A) published a pamphlet detailing the specifics of his psak heter that bomb shelters may be built on Shabbos because of Pikuach nefesh. Another, more traditional Rabbi (whom we’ll call Rabbi B) disagreed, so Rabbi A paid a visit to Rabbi B to try and convince him of what he perceived as the truth.
The Talmidim of Rabbi B expected a point by point “academic” rebuttal on the merits of Rabbi A’s heter, instead they were surprised when Rabbi B approached Rabbi A and exclaimed
“!מיין מאמע האט מיך געלערנט אז מען דארף היטן שבת”.
(Roughly translated “My mother taught me that one must keep Shabbos!)
This story epitomizes what’s wrong with your “don’t you believe in Halachik principles of…?” approach, and what many of us are wary about. Temimos is often a good thing, of which we can all use a couple of doses of nowadays…Kind of funny to see a guy who wrote “בשבילי נברק העולם” tell someone to check their spelling.
How do you know it’s a spelling mistake? Maybe he believes the world was lightninged just for him?
The Wolf
Mammele,
1. So write a letter to the Kushners. According to your opinion there is no issur of LH as all of our actions affect all of us. By publicly condemning them (and I reiterate that as you are relying on news reports which may not be fully accurate you are at least over on kabbalat LH) you are arrogating to yourself the role of posek. Do you have a license to pasken? Do you know all of the details?
2. Regarding those Jews who worked on Shabbat in America, they have already been judged by the one True Judge.
3 Rabbi B obviously had no halachic answer (if this anecdote really happened – I personally take these stories with a metric ton of salt). Would he say that to a woman who is in labor? Would he even say that to someone who wants to know if he can drink soup that was reheated on Shabbat, which Rambam , Rashba, and Ran allow (see Mishna Berura 318:2)? I am underwhelmed by your story.
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