Rumor about Ivanka Trump Spurs conversation about Geirus

Joseph, the nullification of the “gerut”, if it took place (there is no actual record) of Borokowsky was based on the fact that it was a forced conversion (his “father-in-law” had threatened to reveal his shady activities to the authorities) . Moreover, he continued to conduct himself a gentile, eating pork and going to church.

In any case, you are over on kabbalat LH (the newspaper reports), LH (no toelet) and MSH,at “least” of the talmidei chachamim you besmirched. You are also paskening without a license.

Edited

AviK
If this reference you keep mentioning is the infamous Langer case, then you could not be more wrong.
In regards to the Langer case, every major rosh hayehiva of the time signed kol koreh’s denouncing Goren and going as far as stripping him of the ability to pasken. Even Rav Moshe put his name on these kol korehs which were published in major jewish papers the time.
The autobiography’s of Rav Ovadiah and Rav Elyashiv have entire chapters dedicated to this halachic travesty

JTA, Jan 5, 1973
RAV YOSEF CALLS GOREN DICTATOR
…
Meanwhile new trouble has developed between Rabbi Goren and his colleague Sephardic Chief Rabbi Ovadia Yosef. In an emotional speech to Jerusalem’s Oriental community last night. Rabbi Yosef described Rabbi Goren as a “dictator,” implied that he twisted halacha (religious law) for his own purposes, and begged the Sephardic community to support him in his confrontation with the Ashkenazic Chief Rabbi.

In a voice choked with tears. Rabbi Yosef said, “I live under a dictatorship. I am alone on the battlefield. I need your help to carry on. You do not know what is going on in the Chief Rabbinate. I am alone fighting every hour. I cannot sleep nights.” He alleged that Rabbi Goren imposed his will at Chief Rabbinate meetings by “banging his fist on the table and saying, ‘that is it.’”

Rabbi Yosef made no direct reference to the Langer ruling. However, he said. “I am opposed to extremism but I believe halacha should be dispensed without publicity and without sensationalism. I am of the school of Belt Hillel but I cannot make halacha so plastic that it can fit into any mold. I cannot tell the crowd that everything is permissible, everything is forgiveable.

mench and ZD

for some reason Avi is confused by this
see here : http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/rabbi-shmuly#post-1225573

This was no ordinary machlokes. The psak was so egregiously false that the gedolim passeled all of his psakim.

Sorry Avi
What happened with the langer case is that the top Rabbanut BD, what you can call the halachic supreme court, paskened and revisited the issue and paskened again that these people were mamzerim.
There was no other avenue of appeal. But there was public pressure, and Goren saw an opportunity . He convened a secret BD that had no real authority since the matter had already been ruled on repeatedly. No one knew who the BD was for years (it was sealed under top secret military clearance) and Goren waved a magic wand and gave the secular public what they wanted, a chief rabbi who is willing to bend Halacha to accommodate the desires of the people.
He had no halachic authority to do what he did. , but he was able to do it based on his position.

No, we’re not missing your point. You are inaptly comparing one case to another. (I don’t know about Ivanka’s geirus, but you can’t prove its validity by comparing it to a different case).

The Langer case involved Mamzerius which is one of the hardest things in the torah to defend , If not the hardest to a non or semi-religous population.

Ivanka Trump doesnt involve Mamzerius

Its one of those things I thankfully was not there at the time to have to make a decision. As stated in at least 2 cases above and others Ive heard about Sometimes there are outside pressures when it comes to Gerius,

One that I heard of involved a woman in Germany who was married to a Cohen. She was a little mentally unstable and they had a baby and it died. She then decided the reason the baby died was because she wasnt jewish and then demanded to be converted to Judaism. She petitioned the German government to be converted to Judaism and they put pressure on the Rabbis of Germany to convert her. It was not a Shalia Id want to be asked. A mentally unstable person who lost a baby already married to a Cohen. Thankfully I wasnt asked

The gedolim all held that it was an egregious perversion of halacha. Needless to say, they didn’t hold it was warranted.

And, they’re damaging the integrity of gerim, which nobody ever seems to care about other than real gerim.

That is a terrific point.

I don’t think this conversation is fair to Yael (her Jewish name). She is an earnest and seems to be an honest person. If she was indeed born Jewish (which her mother sure looks like it might be true), the conversation should be over. If not, we should give her the benefit of the doubt, she is progressing, and raising two beautiful children that should not be harmed. When Mashiach finally reveals himself, he is able to declare who is a Jew by his spiritual power of smell. It is not fair for a Georess to be judged by bullet-proof stockings, sheitel or tichel, plus many other humrus. That she is Shomeres Shabbat, keeps kosher and the chagim is sufficient. After all, many a woman has been told, the only criteria in choosing a husband should be that “he is Shomer Shabbat”. And that leaves a lot to be desired for criteria. We Jews should leave the Kushners alone, and eliminate any suspicion of lashon hara, et al.

“It is not fair for a Georess to be judged by bullet-proof stockings, sheitel or tichel, plus many other humrus.”

The fact that a community exists that considers hilchos tznius to be all “humrus [sic]” is precisely the problem. It’s getting more attention now that someone from that community is in the Presidents family and administration.

Nechamasara, who says hat Mashiach will do that? Rambam only says that he will fight Hashem’s wars, rebuild the Bet HaMikdash and wipe out Amalek. Chamim say (Eduyot 8:7) that Eliahu, who also will come, will not clear up those considered pasul or disqualify those considered kosher but only to make peace. Even Rabbi Yehoshua , who is the most machmir, only says that he will push away those who came close by force.

Neville,
1. The objection should be to the obsession with their religious observance. I do not think that the media considers them role models. Rather, this is part of their war against Trump (BTW, I find it interesting that none of them talk about JFK’s obstruction of justice in the Sherman Adams case).
2. The chillul Hashem (if there was one – I seriously doubt that it bothers gentiles and non-observamt Jews) can be corrected by a limmud zechut. In any case, it is prohibited to rebuke someone publcily without meeting all of the conditions set forth by the Chafetz Chaim. In particular, the arm chair poskim do not know the details of why they ddi what they did. They are either woefully ignorant of the complexities of Halacha or simply enjoy cutting down others. You have also not answered my question regarding slumlords and people who have engaged in corrupt activiites. Therewas no thread, for example, about a certain Orthodox politician who was convicted of corrupt activities. This was a far greater chillul Hashem.
3. Don’t be disingenous. This whole thread is titled “Rumor about Ivanka Trump Spurs conversation about Geirus”. I persobnally do not understand how the mods allowed it.

Rav Ovadiah Yosef, Rav Elyashiv, and many others of their stature, had halachic disagreements with other Poskim and Rabbanim.
These Poskim still maintain their status in Klal Yisroel, as mature people know the disagreements are l’shem Shomayim .
However, the peanut brain critics will continue to complain and spew hatred as did Korach and his ilk.

Rav Ovadiah Yosef, Rav Elyashiv, and many others of their stature clearly stated that Goren’s position was *not* l’sheim shamayim..

Avi, how do you posel Conservative and Open Orthodox conversions?

If one holds that the “Modern Orthodox” are part of the Torah world (and when we start working on political alliances, we certainly do consider them, and the kosher food industry certainly counts on them, etc.), one can’t complain that their converts act like the rest of the “modern orthodox” community, and that community tends to have very “creative” interpretations of halacha (which allows them to eat kosher ingredients prepared on cold non-kosher utensils, participating in sports as long as one lets a non-Jew handle the money, carrying in a Karmelis, dressing in manners that frum Jews find objectionable, etc.). One doesn’t expect Ivanka Trump to be frumer than her family’s rabbi, and especially, one doesn’t expect her to be frumer than her husband.

It took me a while to get to a post i liked — but this one i did — because while somewhat obnoxious — it is interesting. In part:

“One can’t complain that their converts act like the rest of the “modern orthodox” community, and that community tends to have very “creative” interpretations of halacha (which allows them to eat kosher ingredients prepared on cold non-kosher utensils, participating in sports as long as one lets a non-Jew handle the money, carrying in a Karmelis, dressing in manners that frum Jews find objectionable, etc.). One doesn’t expect Ivanka Trump to be frumer than her family’s rabbi, and especially, one doesn’t expect her to be frumer than her husband.”

First, I am modern orthodox (or at least some strain of that). I agree that it is clear that Modern Orthodox converts are going to be modern orthodox. Second, the halacha require fealty and allegiance to halacha — not necessarily 100% observance. GASP? Of course thats true. Is chalav yisroel required? Yoshon? Hair covering? Etc. Do i have to ask all of you? And you are right, are all modern orthodox gerim (even those many who went through “Frum” batei din — invalid. Uh….no. Third, I dont believe all of the interpretations above are “creative.” Cold utensils etc…. thats the halacha. Benyomo/aino ben yomo — halacha. Not sure who allows carrying in a karmelis without an eruv. I am not sure what the sports example is? Going to games on shabbos? Who paskened its ok? Sometimes — people get asked questions — how should i do this, if I am gonig to do this. Very different.

Joseph, I never posseled any gerut as I am not qualified. However, Conservative rabbanim are not rabbanim. OO is heading in that direction.

Akuperma, you are motzi shem ra on Rav Lookstein. As for your other complaints, please cite sources including the circumstances in which they were said. More HSR. You must go to every MO Jew in the world and obtain forgiveness.

Joseph, actually there was no record that Borokowsky actually converted nor was there a record of the couple having had a Jewish wedding (they were “married” in a church prior to the alleged conversion). For an impartial discussion of the issues see The Langer Case in Contemporary Halachic Problems vol. 1 (available on-line).

Sarah Levine:

I truly hope you’re a troll account created by someone trying to make the modern orthodoxy look bad.

I don’t think I’ve ever found myself defending the MO in the CR, but MO Rabbis don’t actually say that hair covering isn’t the halachah. They may turn the blind eye while 90% of their congregants act that way, but please don’t say hair covering is the same thing as keeping Cholov Yisroel. I want to win in an argument with the MO, but not like this. There’s no honor in this.

On a side note, what she said about cold dishes is correct. I think there’s a tendency of some MO people to eat even hot food off of treif utensils if the food itself is kosher (not saying this is mainstream). I don’t want to derail this thread too much though.

Joseph, I get it, you disagree with Rav Goren. But it’s also disrespectful to repeatedly omit his title. I disagree with most if not all Satmar positions but that doesn’t entitle me to call either brother mister.

Nothing to do with Ivanka,but a true convert Sion story. Many years ago the brother of an old friend of my wife married a Japanese woman and his mother was upset. The women underwent a real conversion with an Orthodox Rav and took her studies seriously but his mother was still upset. Why? Because her Japanese daughter in law continued to grow and eventually didn’t trust her mother in law’s kashrus

It is known that Joseph is a student of Rabbi Shmuel Brog. Rabbi Brog was a Tzadik and would never refer to Rav Goren as Goren or to Rav Soloveitchik as J.B.
Unfortunately, this is not so with at least one of his wayward students.

Neville,
Please don’t slander MO by saying “I think there’s a tendency…” If you don’t know, don’t even speculate. It’s pure lashon harah.
I can tell you that recently, I asked my Rav about this issue, because I had to attend a business dinner at a non-kosher restaurant. I was told I could bring my own food, but they didn’t want me to eat it out of a pan, as they are a high-class restaurant, and they wanted to serve it on their own plates.
My Rav told me that if I get cold food, I could ask them to cover the bottom of the plate with some Romaine lettuce leaves (big ones, not chopped) that were rinsed, and I could put the food on top of it. If I had hot food, it was not an option. Thankfully, after speaking further with the restaurant, they allowed me to use some nice plastic plates which I purchased.
You also said 90% of MO women don’t cover their hair. Again, a total falsehood. Where do you get your information from? I’d say that 90% of married women in my shul DO cover their hair.

I truly hope you’re a troll account created by someone trying to make the modern orthodoxy look bad.

I don’t think I’ve ever found myself defending the MO in the CR, but MO Rabbis don’t actually say that hair covering isn’t the halachah. They may turn the blind eye while 90% of their congregants act that way, but please don’t say hair covering is the same thing as keeping Cholov Yisroel. I want to win in an argument with the MO, but not like this. There’s no honor in this.

On a side note, what she said about cold dishes is correct. I think there’s a tendency of some MO people to eat even hot food off of treif utensils if the food itself is kosher (not saying this is mainstream). I don’t want to derail this thread too much though.

1. Not a troll. Not Sarah Levine either…but not a troll.
2. Modern Orthodox.
3. If i am guilty of anything — its poor writing.
4. Most modern orthodox rabbis require married women to cover their hair — but certainly not all. And, as you observed, many modern orthodox women do not cover their hair (for whatever reason). My point was that if a convert joins the MO — and follows what many women do — she shouldnt be disqualified as a convert.
5. Now — quoting only myself — heating hot kosher food off trief dishes (assuming as we do that the dishes have not been used for 24 hours — mei-ikar ha din — doesnt make the food treif). I dont know anyone in my community who does that — and I dont.
6. The point of my post was (I hoped) that generally we assume acceptance of Torah as the standard for conversion — as exhibited (or proven by) observance of Shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamishpacha. If we are going to look into EXACTLY how someone keeps those — which was the point of my examples — then accepting any converts becomes very difficult.