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I was a yeshiva student for a few years in black hat yeshivos. Part of the reason I left full-time learning was because of the loneliness that I experienced. I was a good bochur who never got up to trouble and learnt all the sedorim and even during the breaks. However, I was not content with only learning iyun all day. I was interested in other areas like learning bekius, nach and halacha, instead of iyun. I am not posting to start a debate of whether this type of learning is correct or not. What bothers me is that there is no room for legitimate personal expression in yeshivos. I felt second rate. Let me give you an example: my friend who learns in mir (which generally has more learning options) decided that he wanted to learn gemara for the first 2 sedorim, and at a halacha kollel at night. When he told an avreich, he was told back “why are you doing that, only burnt out bochurim learn halacha at night?” This post is not about if learning halacha as opposed to gemara is preferable. This post is about why someone has to feel second rate because he merely wants to express himself in learning what he wants? There has to be some room for expression. This stuff makes people full-time leave learning.
We’ll, my personal expression took the form of not giving a hoot to all those telling me I should rather be learning this that or the other thing. But yes, ?? ???? ??? is not practiced and encouraged and it should be.
It’s sad to hear that. I would think learning particle Halacha is very important.
For example: Friends, who lived just upstairs from my daughter and son-in-law, both learned in a very chushuv kollel in Yerushalayim, came downstairs one Shabbos early afternoon. They said they couldn’t stay in their apartment because the pilot light went out on their stove and couldn’t stand the smell of the gas.
My s-i-l asked them why they didn’t shut the stove and they said “Shabbos.” The fact that it was a sakana and the building could have exploded was lost in their thinking. My s-i-l got up and went to their apartment and closed the gas. There also had been disasters stemming from the very same issue before.
So, their Talmud Chochom friend really wasn’t that much of a chochom.
What does learning halacha have to do with “personal expression?”
If you don’t like the way your yeshiva learns, find a different one.
I have a similar disagreement with yeshivas, but a lot broader.
Many (even most) yeshivas in the charedi world do not tolerate even harmless activities that are not learning. Bachurim should be encouraged to have hobbies like music, sports, building, etc. because 95% of the male population is not cut out for full time learning to the exclusion of all else. If yeshivas understood that, then not only would their baalhabatim be more connected to yiddishkeit, but the yeshivas would also direct many more talented people toward klei kodesh.
What does learning halacha have to do with “personal expression?”
It’s what HaLeiVi referred to as “?? ???? ???”.
If you don’t like the way your yeshiva learns, find a different one.
Do you know of many yeshivish for younger bochurim which focus on Halacha? I don’t.
My issue with the OP is the contention that he was a masmid, but couldn’t find time for ?”?, ????, and ??????. Granted, Halacha seder in most yeshivish is short (and not as well attended as other sedorim), but there is a bekius Seder, and for someone who learns night seder and bein hasedorim, plenty of time for extra limudim.
Barry, if that oven doesn’t have the ignite between low and off, you can shut it even without Sakanah.
Bachurim should be encouraged to have hobbies like music, sports, building, etc. because 95% of the male population is not cut out for full time learning to the exclusion of all else.
You liberals are always trying to feminize men, for example here by trying to convince them to do feminine activities like sports, music, building, and working.
Many (even most) yeshivas in the charedi world do not tolerate even harmless activities that are not learning.
I’m sorry that that’s your experience, but it’s not mine.
I’m sorry that that’s your experience, but it’s not mine.
It’s mine.
I definitely hear the side of the OP, a valid complaint. However, on the side of the Yeshiva (don’t even attempt to want to know which), I will just posit that the very essence of a Yeshiva is its conformity, all doing the same thing together. Therein lies its individuality, its strength. If each one were to do “his thing”, there’s little chance such an institution would succeed.
Sometimes one cannot conform to the standards of a Yeshiva, and will have to look for one that suits him, his needs, his circumstances best. Some situations require a “special” setting, which can, actually, afford each student his own path, direction, personalized attention. That’s why we pick our choice.
Since the invention of “Yeshivos”, this has always been the rule – the individual follows, bends, yields to the majority.
The alternative to this is the original plan; every father teach his own son.
Popa: you need a new user name. Trolling doesn’t work if you’re a known troll. 😉
HaLeiVi, the situation I was describing was clearly a sakana, so there shouldn’t have even been a question or doubt. The point I was making was that this Kollel guy had a lot of learning behind him, but no practical knowledge.
DY, people dont want to be tolerated, they want to be appreciated.
People have a variety of talents. Learning, particualry the specific type of learning that is Valued in (most) Yeshivas, is not practical for everybody. As the OP pointed out some are more cut out for Bekius or other limudim like Halacha. Some peoples kochos may not be in learning at all, they have other strengths and talents, that more often than not are not appreciated in Yeshiva or may even be shunned (like being good at sports) These people want and deserve appreciation for their strengths too.
This is a known problem with no (easy?) solution. As obviously Torah and other talents, are in different leagues.
I had an extensive discussion with a respected Adom Gadol regarding this. He was asked what the point of the Yeshiva’s Purim Shpiel was. He said the only reason he could think of was, as an opportunity to celebrate/appreciate those with talents that they don’t normally get to show off such as Writing/directing/acting.
To be clear: I am not saying Yeshivas or Yeshivaleit SHOULD give chashivus to talents other than learning. I am just pointing out the reality of this problem, which may not have a (easy?) solution.
Do you know of many yeshivish for younger bochurim which focus on Halacha? I don’t.
I doubt you are correct, but if you are, it is because nobody wants it.
Barry, no shaychus to not knowing halachah. Every cheder yingele knows that sakana is docheh Shabbos.
Popa and ubiquitin, maybe we’re reading the complaint differently. VM seems to be saying that 95% of bochurim aren’t being dealt with properly, and that’s just not the case under any normal definition.
I doubt you are correct, but if you are, it is because nobody wants it.
Of course it’s lack of demand. Most bochurim want to focus on iyun, and as I said, even guys who want to do their own thing have some leeway within the regular yeshiva schedule.
Agav, if you “doubt” I am correct, that means you are indeed unaware of such yeshivas, otherwise you would know that I am incorrect.
That case wasn’t muttar because of sakana, it was muttar because there’s nothing wrong with turning the gas off on shabbos, the same way you can turn the water off on shabbos.
DaasYochid: Obviously not. A little seichel wouldn’t have hurt either. That’s a basic think that anyone should know, yet, these people clearly didn’t.
Yybc, that depends if there’s an electronic ignition which turning the knob activates.
Barry, really now, if you told that fellow that pikuach nefesh docheh Shabbos, he’d say, “Wow, I never knew that! I really should have taken my grandfather to the hospital when he had a heart attack on Shabbos instead of letting him die! Thanks for the info! Now I’ll know for next time!”??
It was lack of seichel, not lack of halachic knowledge.
In the mir my 2nd seder chavrusah told me that our first seder maggid shiur told him that his second seder shud be mah shelibo chafetz.
Expression is a weird word to use for this. If theres a problem it has nothing to do with expressing oneself in learning. Learning isnt a tool to express oneself with. Maybe lack of encouragement or appreciation like ubiquitin said.
As far as doing hobbies (at night, Bein Hasdorim, etc.) Bochurim are definitely free to do these. Obviously they won’t be considered Masmidim by drumming three hours every night, and they shouldn’t be. Perhaps there is this ???? ?????? that’s keeping people from doing hobbies.
I happened to have managed more than one hobby, and come to think of it, even my own Limudim during certain free time.
Mashgichim of some Yeshivos would try to discourage other activities in their quest to turn you into a Masmid. Usually, once they realize that a particular Bochur won’t become a full time Masmid they stop discouraging him from doing his hobbies.
nobody looks down on quickie Friedman’s. I don’t know where you pulled that from.
I know you didn’t want to get into the “correctness” of a particular derech, but it should be noted that one who hasn’t mastered certain gemara skills will be missing something in his understanding of halacha. Although single/married is an artificial line (which isn’t strictly adhered to anyhow), there’s a reason it’s not the norm to focus on halacha when younger.
Yayin, I just want to mention that if there were no issue of sakana it would be assur to shut the gas on Shabbos because of Muktzeh. At best, the knob is ??? ??????? ??????, probably it is ????? ???? ????? ???.
*Based on what I learned at a leading “mainstream Yeshiva” 🙂
catch yourself IF its Kli shemelochto lissur, it would be mutar to shut it litzorech gufo, to prevent foul odor.
Thank you for highligting the lack of practical halach learning in “mainstream yeshivas”, though I think that is secondary to the OP’s point
Thanks Ubiquitin – I will assume that your sarcasm was meant all in good fun.
First of all, I actually forgot that the gas has a foul odor, so the mistake was not grounded in any shortcoming of learning practical halacha.
Secondly, you seem not to agree that it is a ??????”?. Please elaborate.
In any case, you have not responded to my assertion that the knob would be ???”?.
Of course, the main point was that, my own shortcomings notwithstanding, practical halacha is in fact learned in mainstream Yeshivos. The idea that this is not the case, like so many other slanderous contentions, is often referred to as fact by people who have little or no knowledge of the facts, or worse, who have an ax to grind with a particular Yeshiva or Yeshivos in general.
It is easy to nitpick on any part of a particular system taken out of context of the whole. Only by putting everything in its proper context can justice be done to the Yeshiva system. Needless to say, this is beyond the scope of the CR.
Just remember that there are some pretty intelligent individuals, who care deeply about Ratzon Hashem, running the Yeshivos. At the very least they should be credited with the possibility of having thought through their life’s work.
R’ Moshe says there is an issue of muktzeh, is mattir anyway, but recommends a shinui.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=920&st=&pgnum=142&hilite=
?? ??? on this shailah (I haven’t finished reading it yet):
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20947&st=&pgnum=212&hilite=
Catch yourself. I dont want to get caught up int he specifics of one example. bottom line is the gas case is muttar for any number of reasons, not least of which is pikuach nefesh.
I learnt in Ner Yisroel, when I last checked it was the second largest “black hat” yeshiva in america (Waterburry might be overtaking). There is no regular Halacha seder at least that is adhered too. I am not saying there should be, after all there isnt a chumash seder either, obviously that doent make it unimportant ch”v.
The bottom line is mainstream Yeshivas do not place a chashivis (or emphasis) on pactical halacha. I am not saying this is wrong or even a problem per se, but this is certainly the case.
What I do think is a problem, which is what i understood the OP as saying, is that as a result of the deemphasis of practical halacha, bekiyus, Nach and other limuddim, those who are not cut out for iyun are made to feel inadequate. Nobodody wants to feel inadaquate. Similarly those who are not cut out for learning at all, but have other kochos, be it music sports art etc are not appreciated for their strengths either. Obviously this does not mean Yeshivas should introduce Art, or music Sedorim. i am just pointing out a very real problem with no obvious solution or perhaps no solution at all.
Summary: R’ Moshe mentions a chashash sakanah, R’ Tzvi Pesach Frank and R’ Nissim Karelitz do not. When quoting the ??? ???, the ?????? ??? qualifies the he was referring to a case where there is none. It is apparently not assumed that every case of an open gas burner is automatically a sakana.
The ?? ??? gives two, possibly three reasons to be mattir.
1) Rotating a knob is not considered ?????.
2) It is ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ????
3) ??? ?? ???, but he is ????? if it applies where you’re not being ????? the ???.
??? ??? is mattir because of ??? ?? ???, but does assume it’s ?????. It seems he holds it’s ????? ???? ?????, not ??? ??????? ??????, so ????? ???? does not apply.
Bottom line: muttar, but not nearly as pashut as some indicated.
So in the big colleges they bring in stupid people with solid sports skills who wont have low self-esteem in order that the lower tier students shudntfeel theyre on the lower tier.
Yeshivas cant really do that.
If your point is that yeshivas should have a wider range of subjects to learn, i dont see why they have to try to fit what someone else thinks shud be learnt into their syllabus.
If your point is self esteem related, true that may be an issue but if the guys not cut out for learning iyun doesnt mean they shud have mandatory nach for this guy to shine.
why is all the blame laid at the feet of the yeshivos? if a bachur has other talents, let his parents help him develop them. if it creates a conflict with his daily yeshiva schedule and sedarim, then let the parents, the bachur and mashgiach (or rebbe or rosh hayeshiva) sit down and discuss it and come to a working resolution.
APY: Convenient target. No one wants to blame themselves.
oyoyoy
I’m not sure if the “your” in your post was directed to me. But I am not saying that Yeshivas should have a mandotory nach seder. In actually dont think there is a solution. I am just pointing out a very real problem that exists in our Yeshivas with their single minded focus. Again this doesnt mean the single minded focus is wrong ch”v, it has a flaw but overall MIGHT be the only way to produce bnei Torah.
Keep in mind, once leaving Yeshiva this becomes less of a problem, since outside the daled koslei hayeshiva, people can be celebrated/appreciated for a variety of things even if they arent “cut out for learning” whether it is the baal chesed, succesful in buisness (lav davka ina financial sense, I mean in a way that helps people, though financial sense woks for some people too. ) Or even “merely” raising a nice family, most peopel can and will achieve at least one of these, giving them the sipuk they need. Yeshiva guys have just one thing. Learning, and even that is limited to one mode of learning.
I do agree with the OP (at least to a degree) that the Yeshiva system has become too much like a cookie-cutter. One size does not fit all, and there should indeed be greater freedom to pursue topics in Torah that one has an interest in (particularly Halacha and bekiyus).
That said, a student must be sufficiently developed in analyzing and truly understanding a text before they can “move on” to other topics, since these skills are critical for any type of learning. This is why younger bochurim are usually taught iyun for the lion’s share of the day, while older bochurim (such as those in Mir and Lakewood) often branch out into whatever field they feel their strengths lie in.
Also, I have to agree with HaLeiVi and PBA that if you feel that a certain mehalach ha’limud is right for you, you have to be able to ignore those who will look down upon you for doing things differently. ??? ?????? ????.
As for Veltz Meshugener’s point that “yeshivas in the charedi world do not tolerate even harmless activities that are not learning”: While it is true that there is nothing inherently wrong with neutral activities or hobbies, Chazal tell us (Avos, 6, 6) that Torah is nikneh ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????. And many, if not most American Chareidi Yeshivos do indeed believe that more than 5% of the male population can be koneh Torah.
noname1234:
R’ Usher Areilli gives the largest daily Gemera shiur in the world (to 700+ talmidim) at an approximate rate of 1.5-2 blatt a week (only first seder). And nobody looks down on him.
As for why it is that these options are often only available to older bochurim, see above.
It is rare that one is stopped (forcefully, from the rosh hayshiva, etc.) from learning part-time what they want to, and as in OP’s case, that didn’t happen, just someone contended their decision. Then OP says that yeshiva bochurim can’t express themselves. It seems more like OP gave into peer pressure. Why didn’t he explain to the avreich his motivations for doing his thing, and/or ignore him?
I see, but I think you’re case is an exception. When I was in yeshiva (yes, mainstream), someone who learned his own thing/way wasn’t an outcast.
could be more of a problem socialy, ie other bochrim looking at u quizzically, than an hanhalah issue
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