Rome and Eisav

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  • #608651
    thegra
    Member

    The gemara says that Rome comes from bne Eisav. I was wondering if there are any historic accounts that Rome acknowledged this or if was a mesorah of Klal Yisroel exclusively. Doesn’t Rome claim to come from twin brothers Romulus and Remus, who descended from the Trojan prince Aeneas and who were grandsons of the Latin King, Numitor of Alba Longa?

    #939131
    ah talmid
    Participant

    Edom.

    The Chashmonim vs. the Edomites.

    #939132
    charliehall
    Participant

    I’m unaware of any other source for this, and it isn’t even unanimous among our sources. Josephus reports that under Hyrcanus they were forcibly converted to Judaism; Herod was a descendent of one of those forced converts. Josephus also reports that they fought on the side of the Jews when Titus was besieging Jerusalem. Ibn Ezra accepts that narrative and criticizes those who accept the “Edom = Rome” view.

    #939133
    playtime
    Member

    “The Edomites [the nation around Mount Seir, descended from Esau] [of the city] of Rome determined their belief in him and established it [as the religion of the empire].

    “This, above all else, is the main cause and reason that Rome and Edom are considered as one kingdom although they are different nations. In spite of that [difference] [The Sages of the Targum] thus explained that Rome is in Grecian Italy and that many of the Edomite people are contained therein. Hence, [Rome]

    #939134
    thegra
    Member

    talmud: thanks that is very interesting.

    #939135
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Sefer Hayashar brings that Edom was overrun by the Kittim and the nations mixed. Elifaz landed up ruling in Europe. He fought the Egyptians for harboring the Jews.

    #939136
    old man
    Participant

    Terms like Eisav, Amalek, Edom, Emori and others are simply euphemisms for evil or evil nations. The use of such terms is sociologically based and not historically based.

    #939137
    playtime
    Member

    old man- Are you suggesting that we have a Mitzvah to kill anyone who is concurrent socially with Amalek?

    #939138
    abra cadabra
    Participant

    old man is saying that when the Torah talks about Eisev the Torah isn’t talking about a historical person named Eisev but rather a euphemism for an evil person. According to old man Eisev never existed as a historical matter. old man gets these ideas from Biblical revisionists and secular historians who deny the Bible and/or attempt to reinterpret it to conform to modern historical beliefs.

    #939139
    Rav Tuv
    Participant

    There isnt a mitzvah to kill Amalek until Moshiach comes and tells us who is Amalek. Since Sancheriv mixed the nations we can’t possibly know who is Amalek.

    #939140
    Sam2
    Participant

    Talmud: That is the Shittah of several Rishonim and several contemporary Poskim.

    #939141
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    old man- Are you suggesting that we have a Mitzvah to kill anyone who is concurrent socially with Amalek?

    What would you call the Nazis?

    There is no evidence whatsover they are Amalek

    #939142
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Abra cadabra just set up the strawest man if I’ve ever seen one.

    #939143
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    The Midrash interestingly cites the myth of Romulus and Remus in a couple of places, for example in Bereishis 48:9.

    http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/olam_hatanah/perekT.asp?sefer=1&perek=18

    #939144
    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    Herod was a Nabatean Arab.

    Ency. Brit. has an odd definition: “Herod was born in southern Palestine; his father, Antipater, was an Edomite (an Arab from the region between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba). Antipater was a man of great influence and wealth, who increased both by marrying the daughter of a noble from Petra (in southwestern Jordan), at that time the capital of the rising Nabataean kingdom. Thus Herod was, although a practicing Jew, of Arab origin on both sides.”

    Don’t know how this could be. Edomites and Arabs are not the same.

    #939145
    playtime
    Member

    yitainingwut- This is so interesting if it is true! Which Medrash says this?

    #939146
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    talmud – http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/olam_hatanah/mefaresh.asp?book=1&perek=18&mefaresh=raba

    Hit Ctrl+f and search “????? ????????”.

    #939147

    Livy: the History of Early Rome translated by Aubrey de Selincourt mentions a marriage treaty between Aeneas and Latinus (p. 6) but I don’t see anything about Numitor of Alba Longa.

    #939148
    playtime
    Member

    yitayningwut- Thanks for the link. I see they are mentioned, but who says the story of them being brought up by a wolf is true? Is that also a Medrish?

    #939149
    daniela
    Participant

    The wolf tale is xian censorship.

    A female wolf in Latin is called “lupa”. That has nothing to do with the lady who in the original story raised the twins. If this is unclear, please look up in your dictionary “lupanar”.

    #939150
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    talmud – Dunno. One thing is clear though, which is interesting, that the Midrash assumes the reader is already familiar with these characters.

    #939151
    playtime
    Member

    So we have found that Chazal have sanctioned Global History classes;)

    #939152
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    lol apparently

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