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aries, your post expresses my feelings, too.
People hear songs through their own personalities/Neshamos.
That is why WIY and Popa may disagree on the appropriateness of the same songs.
Either that, or they aren’t referring to the same songs.
I’ve heard several romantic songs from wartime and other tekufos that made me think of Hashem and draw closer to Him.
Even when a man sings/hums these songs to his wife, they are about the Neshama connection, and do not sound vulgar, because they are not.
popa – the gemara says ????? ??????? ?? ???? – LIKE the way of the leitzim. dheinu the genre of leitzim
Aries- totally agree!
Popa: The only real unity between a man and wife is only through their spiritual side. Romance songs may be ok to listen to, but they do not elevate your feelings of closeness to Hashem. Popa, how could you understand the spirituality of marriage if you are not married?
Popa: Get married and you’ll understand.
Hey Lomed, according to your logic, how can you understand the spirituality of the MO if you aren’t MO?
And just curious, what’t the point of the physical side if the emotional aspect is “false.”
Yitay: I didn’t say it was false; the two sides coincide with each other.
Popa: I don’t get what you’re saying (although I usually agree/respect your posts); how does understanding romantic realtionship help you understand better your relationship with God? Do you think a single man or woman can’t have a relationship with God?
I Love the Barney song. I sing it with my 2 year old granddaughter every day. And I can’t even begin to tell you what I feel when she says she loves me. There is nothing in the world like it. “I Yuv you Bobby!” YUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMY!
I didn’t read the whole the thread…I like the Beatles song “I want to hold your hand”…I do hold my wife’s hand in public…especially on our shabbos walks…
Popa: My point is that listening to romantic songs does not help give more meaning to your relationship with Hashem, given that in reality you are really single. Marriage in real life can give a deeper dimension to your relationship with Hashem; but being single and listening to romantic songs is just self contradictory.
Shir Hashirim brings out the marriage relationship, since our personal relationship with Hashem [being single or married] is really in essence identical to a spiritual marriage relationship.
Popa: Married people don’t need romantic songs to help enhance their relationship with Hashem; they have a spouse IRL that constantly helps their relationship with Hashem grow.
From analyzing your posts on other threads [ and this thread included], I can assert with confindence that you are in fact single.
I think popa is single and maybe missing that romance in his life
Your posts in general are great, keep up the great work!
popa- If you are married why do your brothers come to you for bein hazmanim? unless they are all you.
Either the point of my earlier post from the gemara in sanhedrin is that although it can be used as a mashal – it must not be sung and turned into shiri agovim that the leitzim sing.
popa- would you kiss your wife in public? would you walk around your block holding hands? If you would, then maybe these romantic songs are ok for you.
The second half of this post is very important.
It’s tough to discuss something when you really don’t know what you’re discussing.
What does Popa’s newly married daughter from his 3rd wife (the one who he took to a beshow) hold of this thread?
What does Popa’s 5th wife hold of this thread?
The probllem is when the singer is not married to the listener.
Does he use a different screen name for each wife?
Popa has only three and a half wifes.
“All human relationships were created by Hashem for us to either learn something about Hashem, or to be able to emulate Hashem.”
That is very interesting. I thought relationships were all about giving, and other midos, and one of the fundamental frameworks within which one can grow and do avodas Hashem. Although they certainly can serve the stated purpose as well.
Popa – respect is not love, you say. Yet you agree that many outward expressions of love are not appropriate in public. So what do you feel we should be doing?
It was about you trying to justify listening to zemer yevani in Starbucks.
It’s okay to sing in private, though. You just shouldn’t listen to people singing certain songs if you’re not married to them.
ok popa, sorry, not trying to disturb the thread. I actually didn’t quite understand why you brought that up in the first place.
Thought it was pretty clear –
As you are not advocating showing affection in a physical way, yet you say showing respect and caring does not suffice, I was merely wondering what, IYO, should be done to ensure that children see (which you feel is importnat) their parents mutual love
All human relationships were created by Hashem for us to either learn something about Hashem, or to be able to emulate Hashem.
Thus:
We have fathers so that we can understand that Hashem treats us as a father.
We have children so that we can emulate Hashem by doing for someone with no expectation of a return. (and yes, Hashem made the world and could have made us have fathers and not children. Don’t ask me how.)
We have spouses so that we can understand that our relationship with Hashem is like a spouse.
We have kings so that we can understand how Hashem relates to us as a king.
This is clear from shir hashirim, which uses the romantic relationship to analogize to our relationship with Hashem. We are supposed to do that.
You ask whether a single person can have a relationship with Hashem. Yes. But perhaps not the same way a married person can. And perhaps an orphan cannot understand the way Hashem acts as a father.
Posted 2 years ago #
I like this post very much.
rebyidd- I occasionally listen to romantic songs, but I am not married to the singer, because the Torah curses such a relationship (see Vayikra: 20:13 the end of Parshas Q’doshim for more details)
Being affectionate in public is wrong. This obviously includes public handholding.
Yes, clearly there are ways. But I wonder (without knowing the halacha) why the problem with displaying affection would be limited to physical contact.
“I’m not recommending handholding. And if you don’t know any non-physical ways to be affectionate, you should see a therapist soon.”
Totally agree! There’s nothing wrong with showing affection in public, within the guidelines of halacha (no hugging, kissing, touching ect.)
What are some examples of being affectionate in public in a non-physical way?
No, you shouldn’t marry someone because they sing that song.
Are thoughts physical since they require the physical brain?
Popa, my point was that you rejected being caring and respectful as being insufficient. I’m just not sure I get were they’re so different than non-physical affection. And if it is so different, why is that ok in public ?
My question is why should the problem of displaying affection be limited to the physical. [If I can get a sense, from seeing a couple in public, that they are consumed by the strong feelings expressed in shir hashirim, than I think that’s not tzanua.] I was assuming they’re equally problematic, and therefore you’re back to being limited to care and respect.
And are you making a distinction between what one may do in front of others vs. in front of one’s children (as far as tznius is concerned) ?
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