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What is the m’kor for the midrash that Rivka was three when she married Yitzchak? I was trying to find it on Shabbos but couldn’t. We had a recent balas t’shuvah over and this midrash really didn’t sit well with her, so I am also looking for ideas on how to explain this in a way that’s acceptable to the general public.
I just know that Lubavitcher girls light candle Friday night and they start at 3 yrs old. Reason being becuase that was Rifkah’s age when she married.
While we are on the subject of Rifka Imeinu, I once heard a shiur where the Rav told us that very few people came to her Levaya because they resented her for having a Rosho like Esav. Even though she was a Tzadeikes.
I recall a disputing opinion (a Tosfos) which says she was 13 years old.
I don’t think it’s a Midrash that says she was 3, I think it’s Rashi. There’s a Sifrei that says she was 14.
Rashi’s reasoning is that her birth is mentioned immediately after the Akeidah, so he implies it happened at the same time – as is the case with the death of Sarah. Yitzchak was 37, and Sarah was 127. Since Yitzchak married at 40, Rashi says Rivkah was 3.
The Ibn Ezra writes that Yitzchak was 13 at the akeidah, which means it would be another 24 years until Sarah died. In that case, all the events mentioned there didn’t occur at the same time, so there is no way of knowing how old Rivkah was at her wedding.
@Feif Un
Looking at the Seder HaDoros, Most agree Rivka was born during the akeida.
There is something like a six way machlokes listed in the seder hadoros as to how old Yitzchak was when he was at the akeida. One opinion says he was 26 (meaning Rivka would have been 14 when they got married).
For a really interesting pshat on the subject, have a look in R’ Schwab’s sefer, Mayan Beis HaShoeva, the 3rd piece on Parshas Toldos
Can someone write it up?
A 3 year old then was not the same 3 year old now. Things were different then. People lived longer, and they did not age. We can already see from the story with Eliezer and the camels that she had high intellect and a high level of functioning.
“That Rivkah was 3 years old “
It’s very clear she musta been born during Adar Sheini and therefore as her real birthday didn’t come around too often, she was really more like 12 years old.
Imma613, who says that we hold like Rashi?
The Seder Olam Rabbah (Ratner Ed) clearly says she was 14 when she married Yitzchak.
i also had this question and i was given the answer that really most hold she was 13, but many like the drash that she was 3. Don’t quote me cuz i’m not sure, but that’s what i remember.
Rashi has Ruach Hakodesh. Every word he uttered and wrote is with divine inspiration and intervention.
Additionally, Rivka getting married at age 3 is the classical and standard explanation to cheder boys in Pre-1-A through Beis Medrash.
I should add, aside from these points, Rashi surely had a more authoritive version of Seder HaOlam — closer to its authorship than us — despite any so-called “modern research” (a/k/a rubbish).
If someone doesn’t like such due to modern 20th century sensibilities, so be it. Our Torah is eternal and needs no revisions.
Did not ALL our mefarshim have RH”K? Most do not agree with each other, especially Ramban and Rashi. Their perushim are very important and give us a tremendous understanding of what the Torah probably means by a given expression, but not everything can be correct, especially when two or three opinions are completely opposite. They are opinions, not halacha. It does not matter how old Rivka was, waht matters is that she was an amazing person, even as a young child, filled with chessed and sensitivity, and demonstrated the right middos that made her deserving to be one of the Emahos.
Eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim Chaim
Rashi says:
?) ?? ?????? ??? – ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????, ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???, ???? ?? ???? ??? ???, ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???, ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????, ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ????? (?? ?) ????? ??? ??? ???’, ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????, ????? ?? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?????:
They didn’t actually “get married” until she was 13.
Helpful – I am not sure why you have to call all research rubbish. If people spend time effort (out of love of torah) to find correct versions of various texts – why is that rubbish? After all many rishonim spend lots of time figuring out the proper girsa of the gemara, midrash (or whatever they are explaining) & of course the GRA and the Bach spent enormous efforts in this regard as well. If people have available today texts that were unknown a few hundred years ago – why is that rubbish? Do you ignore all comments of the Meiri because the full text of his chidushim were uncovered around 50 years ago (aside from whatever is quoted in the shita mekubetzes)?
‘I should add, aside from these points, Rashi surely had a more authoritive version of Seder HaOlam — closer to its authorship than us — despite any so-called “modern research” (a/k/a rubbish).’
This is not “modern research” or “rubbish”. There are sources mentioned here that agree with the other texts of Seder Olam Rabbah. See for example are Tosafot to BT Yevamot 61b. There are many places where we know Rashi had a different text of the gemara than we do today; somehow texts got changed in the transit between Eretz Yisrael or Bavel and France. We should not force a single midrashic interpretation as the *only* one when there are others that have support from our mesorah.
@Feif Un – “Imma613, who says that we hold like Rashi?”
It is always better to answer the question then to run away from it.
@g73 – I only see 3 in the rashi, please let me know where you see 13 in that quote.
JayMatt19 – sorry about that, I accidentally copy/pasted the wrong Rashi. Here is what I had intended to quote:
?? ???? ??? – ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????, ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????. ????? ?? ??? ????, ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????:
g73, it seems to me that Rashi is saying that Yitzchok waited until she was 3 to marry her because she was then “raoi l’biah”; this implies that they did indeed “get married” when she was that age. At age 13, according to Rashi, Rivka was capable of becoming pregnant, so that Yitzchok waited 10 years from that point before concluding that she was an akarah.
“The Ibn Ezra writes that Yitzchak was 13 at the akeidah, which means it would be another 24 years until Sarah died. In that case, all the events mentioned there didn’t occur at the same time, so there is no way of knowing how old Rivkah was at her wedding.”
The Ibn Ezra does not in fact opine on how old Yitzchak was at the time of the Akeida. Rather he comments on what the simple menaing of the word “na’ar” is and says that it normally refers to a lad of approximately 13. But he does not do any of the calculations traditionally done to make this determination.
The Midrash Rabbah states that Yitzchak was 37 at the Akeidah. But it also contains a variant reading in parenthesis of 26, which is consistent with the Seder Olam Rabbah’s statement that Rivkah was 14 when she married.
“g73, it seems to me that Rashi is saying that Yitzchok waited until she was 3 to marry her because she was then “raoi l’biah”; this implies that they did indeed “get married” when she was that age. At age 13, according to Rashi, Rivka was capable of becoming pregnant, so that Yitzchok waited 10 years from that point before concluding that she was an akarah. “
I think you have it backwards. The gemara derives the principle of “bat 3 shanim reuyah l’biah” since it is possible, based on calculations derived from the text that Yitzchak was 37 at the Akeidah and this Rivkah was three at their marriage. Yitzchak did not wait for Rivkah to turn three in order to comport with the Halachik norm. Rather the Halachik point is derived from his conduct. But that Halachik point really says nothing about the history involved. All it says is that since, theoretically, Rivkah might have been three at her marriage, a three year old girl is physically capable of biah (i.e. that the simanei betulah will not regenerate).
There were thing that were considered moral and O.K. then that wouldn’t be considered so now. As well as (possibly more) things that are considered moral and o.k now, that would have been considered immoral and wrong then.
Trying to judge what was and should have been considered moral in the Middle East 4000 years ago while living in the western world in the 21st century is kind of silly.
Rashi needs elucidation.
In pasuk chof Rashi says that Rivkah was “????? ?????” at age 3. The Sifsei Chachomim says that she wasn’t “????? ??????” yet- so she was only “????? ?????”. But in chof-vav Rashi says that Yitzchok waited 10 years until she was 13 to decide that Rivkah was an akara, like Avraham did with Sarah.
The difference is that Sarah was already a gedolah before the 10 year count started. If she gave birth to Yitzchok at 90 and Yishmael was 13 years older than him Sarah was about 77 when hagar conceived which would have been at the end of the 10th year when Sarah gave Hagar to Avraham. If this is true then Sarah started counting at 67.
Rashi himself even says “?? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ??????” – “until she became 13 and was able to become pregnant”. Meaning before this time she wasn’t able to become pregnant. So what was the 10 years that Yitzchok waited for if during those 10 years Rivkah wasn’t “????? ??????”?
I vaguely remember hearing that Yitzchok waited to consummate the marriage until Rivkah was 12 or something, which would explain some of this but I’m not 100% sure where I heard it from. Or if I even really did.
Besides this, didn’t one of the shoftim or someone have his first child at the age of seven?
Along the lines of JayMatt19 – the torah tells us that Rivka shlepped jugs of water to feed eliezer and the whole caravan of camels – obviously, whatever her age was, she was very physically matured. I think keeping this in mind could mitigate one’s incredulity towards Rivka Imeinu being “old enough” to marry.
Derech Hamelech; the mareh mokom is in Divrei Hayamim 1:20, the progeny from Kalev to Bezalel. Rashi comments (based on know values from elsewhere) ” go and calculate that they all were less than 8 at becoming parents.”
See Rav Shimon Shwab “MaAyn Bais HaShoava”. He tries to reconsile the Rashi (aged 3) and Tosfos by (aged 14) by saying that Rivka was born 14 years before she got married. Yitzchok was only shayich to become one of the Avos because of his willingness to partake in the Akeida and be the Korbon, which was three years before he married Rivka. Also, Sara Imeinu was nifteres at the time of the akeida. At the point at which Yitzchok was shayich to become one of the Avos, Rivka began her path to gadlus to become one of the Imahos. (Sort of Hikir es bora)
She was 14 years OLD, but 3 years IN THE MAKING.
Look it up. He is obviously much clearer than what I can say from vague memory.
The difference is that Sarah was already a gedolah before the 10 year count started. If she gave birth to Yitzchok at 90 and Yishmael was 13 years older than him Sarah was about 77 when hagar conceived which would have been at the end of the 10th year when Sarah gave Hagar to Avraham. If this is true then Sarah started counting at 67.
No, Sarai started counting at 65 when she entered Cannan. She gave Hagar to Avrum when she was 75 and Yishmael was born when she was 76 and had his Bris when she was 89.
Just curious about the pasuk which says Lavan sent Rivkah along with her meinekes (nursemaid) to Yitzchok. Did that mean Rivkah was nursing when she was 3? Or does it mean this nursemaid was for Rivkah’s own future children?
If the former, would a nursing child be alone by a well taking care of sheep?
As far as I can remember, Rashi wrote b’Ruach Hakoidesh only what we see today in the Chumash. Please correct me if I was misled.
Remember that the source for this is at BEST a midrash — Seder Olam Rabbah — and that there is no chiyuv to accept literally any particular midrash. Kal v’chomer when the midrashic source Rashi quotes may have been a defective text. (His text of the gemara differs from ours in numerous places, and there is even one place where he quotes a Bereshit Rabbah that has a different spelling of a word in Chumash than we find in today’s sifre torah!) So while Rashi may have had ruach hakodesh, it was not a high enough level of prophesy to identify defective texts.
So while Rashi may have had ruach hakodesh, it was not a high enough level of prophesy to identify defective texts.
What would be the point of that? We don’t reconcile the text based on ruach hakodesh, we base our text on our mesorah (and on majority), the same way that Rashi did.
charliehall does not have even an inkling of who Rashi is.
charliehall does not have even an inkling of who Rashi is.
How about, if instead of an ad hominem, you actually address his points and show us where you think he’s wrong?
The Wolf
If a pre-1-A kid starts arguing on Einstein’s theory of relativity, and someone tells the kid you’re no scientist and don’t have an inkling of relativity or Einstein, Wolf may yell ad hominem, yet it is a perfectly valid point – ad hominem or not.
If someone doesn’t like such due to modern 20th century sensibilities, so be it. Our Torah is eternal and needs no revisions.
I am Moche on the Kavod of the Rishonim (such as the Ramban) that disagree with Rashi, that someone should call them subject to “20th century sensibilities” is close to Apikorsus.
Next:
I don’t see MF attacking anyone. We have no idea what Rashi was, and I believe Dr. Hall would agree to that. It doesn’t change the point made, that even Rashi can make mistakes (unless you are in the
“Gedolim are G-ds” (Afar L’Pumei) camp, which in that case you are not a practicing Jew), and he may have made his point based on false information (I don’t think so, but it could be). Rishonim in many cases misquote other Rishonim (a famous case being the Rashba on Keddushei Kesef with Karka), and if the source is not there, it may be a misquote.
“What would be the point of that? We don’t reconcile the text based on ruach hakodesh, we base our text on our mesorah (and on majority), the same way that Rashi did. “
Correct! And as I pointed out, sometimes he had incorrect texts. Rifkah’s age may be such an example.
Actually, Rashi had access to more Medrashim than we do. Keep in mind that many Sefarim were lost when they were burned in france. Also, Rashi didn’t depend on what was in his local library. He travelled alot. I found Rashi using a Russian word to explain a Pasuk, and Polish too. You can’t just dismiss a Rashi off hand, even if it doesn’t fit your fancy. Before wondering how Yitzchack was able to marry her, did you stop to think that no one in her family objected on the grounds of her age? They asked her and valued her position.
The Meinekes is probably her caretaker.
We must realize that although you can find that a Rishon wasn’t privy to certain information, like text or science, what he writes is Torah. In other words, when you find a piece written about the four elements, although these are not considered anymore to be the elementary basics of matter, we learn and revere what he writes. If a Tzadick were to pass a painting, and he would comment on it and point out rome great idea that we can learn from that piece of art, we listen to what he says, which is truth, but we don’t delve into that artwork. So the Rishonim utilize the current science for purposes of Torah, and we learn and internalize that Torah, because it is Torah Leshma and written with Ruach Hakodesh.
Tosfos says that the Medrashim argue on this. How to reconcile that with Eilu Va’eilu is a different topic. However, we don’t pick sides, we learn all of them because they are all Torah.
FYI, TOS. is Yevamos 61b (I believe), if anyone wants to see it for themselves.
I am Moche on the Kavod of the Rishonim (such as the Ramban) that disagree with Rashi
gavra, what are you hocking in chinik? My quoted comment was made in response to a now edited or deleted comment claiming based on “modern research” Rashi had a bad text of Seder HaOlam. It was not made in reference to any machlokes on Rashi.
To the poster that calls himself Helpful:
I believe your point was that Rashi by definition had to have the correct girsa in Seder Olam, and that it was authoritative. As I and others have pointed out (as well as Tosfos), there are multiple contradictory Medrashim regarding the question. Saying that Rashi’s version was not authoritative and makes less sense than the other Medrashim (such as the one that says she was 14) is a valid Shittas Rishonim (such as the Tos. Yeshanim on the Daf), and is not C”V due to the Tos. Yeshanim having “20th century sensibilities”.
If that is not what you were refering to with your comment, then I apologize.
B’Hatzlacha
G@W
P.S. I’m not saying there are no answers to Pashut Pshat in Rashi, either.
To the poster that calls himself gavra_at_”work”:
Your belief is wrong. The point is academic “modern researchers” cannot declare Rashi’s girsa “incorrect”.
P.S. Rashi’s pshat, is the poshut pshat.
Tosfos says that the Seder Olam says that she was three. Tosfos actually goes ahead and says that it can’t even be a mistake in the text since the whole conversation there is explaining how we get age. He only says that there are other Midrashim that argue.
I don’t understand how you can say about something that Rashi brings and accepts, that it doesn’t make sense on the basis of your “advanced” moral standards. If only you would have been around in Rashi’s day you coulda taught him a thing or two.
“How about, if instead of an ad hominem, you actually address his points and show us where you think he’s wrong?”
Wolf since you say Rashi is wrong and he wrote with ruach hakodesh that automaticaly makes you an apikorus. You can use an ad hominim attack against an apikorus since even if he says the truth we dont believe him.
where does the wolf say anything about Rashi or even take a side in this discussion?
He says nothing about Rashi, yet you choose to jump in and call him an apikorus??
You are the one who is not to be believed
The point is academic “modern researchers” cannot declare Rashi’s girsa “incorrect”.
You don’t have to be a “modern researcher”.
Look at the Rashi to Bereshit 25:6 where he quotes a Bereshit Rabbah on the Hebrew spelling of ?????????????. Rashi says the spelling is “defective” yud missing. Which is correct:
(1) Ever sefer torah on the planet today is correct; Rashi and Bereshit Rabbah were mistaken or had a defective text.
(2) Rashi and Bereshit Rabbah are correct; every sefer torah on the planet today has a misspelled word.
(3) Both are acceptable; the spelling in a sefer torah is not critical.
????
“Wolf since you say Rashi is wrong and he wrote with ruach hakodesh that automaticaly makes you an apikorus.”
You’ve just declared Ibn Ezra, Rambam, Ramban, and many other Rishonim and Acharonim to be apikorsim!
Rashi was incomparable! The first word on Tanakh and most of the Bavli, as well as being the posek hador for Ashkenazic Jews in northern France during his lifetime and the teacher of many who would follow. Also an invaluable source for knowledge of the medieval French language and lifestyle. But it is possible to disagree with him. Our religion is rabbinic Judaism, not Rashiism.
“Tosfos says that the Seder Olam says that she was three. Tosfos actually goes ahead and says that it can’t even be a mistake in the text since the whole conversation there is explaining how we get age. He only says that there are other Midrashim that argue.”
Not just other midrashim, other texts of Seder Olam that differ.
“I don’t understand how you can say about something that Rashi brings and accepts, that it doesn’t make sense on the basis of your “advanced” moral standards. If only you would have been around in Rashi’s day you coulda taught him a thing or two. “
I don’t argue based on advanced moral standards; I simply point out other texts and other rishonim who disagree. I am not of the stature to argue with a rishon! But we know in at least one case that he had a defective text of the Torah, there are many examples where he had a different text of the Talmud than we have today, and there are manuscripts of Seder Olam Rabbah that say 14 years.
“Rashi can make mistakes”
I don’t think relying on the best text that you have is a mistake!
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