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There are stores-companies that have amazing return policies, like – “any reason, anytime” (Lands End for example). Now would it be considered taking advantage of the policy if one is to return an item to get a new size, or just to get a new one… Or, is the policy truly any reason anytime?
I don’t know what the policy is and I don’t know what the halacha is. All I can tell you, however, is that I would feel VERY funny taking a garment back after a long time and after normal wear-and-tear. And I certainly wouldn’t return it for something that it was never meant to do (grow with the person).
But that’s just my opinion. Consult your LOR for an actual answer.
The Wolf
I think Cosco has the most amazing return policy.
Very true adorable. Sam’s Club has the same amazing return policy. Wal-Mart’s is also very good (though not as good as Costco and Sam’s Club).
these stores have reasons for their policies and there is nothing wrong with utilizing them, as long as you are honest.
my father, O’H, bought a craftsman vice from sears roebuck with a lifetime guarantee. 30 years of heavy use later he brought it back because the gripping surfaces were worn out. he told them that was the reason. he didnt make up some other reason. he didnt demand a refund. he simply asked does your return policy include normal wear. they proudly answered yes and gave him a new one, (which sold for about 5 times what the original cost)
ive told this story over many times, as has my brother, better than any advertising they could pay for, and i imagine thats what they had in mind when deciding on such a policy
real-brisker-
Do what I do, go to the Customer Service desk and be honest.
Here’s a funny story that happened with my grandparents.
I went to visit them while I was a teenager and my grandfather mentioned to me that the light switch in his study didn’t work. He gave me a $1 bill and asked to get another one from the hardware store around the corner. I brought home the new one and my grandfather noticed that the box said it had a 20 year warranty. He then went to get the receipt from the broken one (which was 19 years and 9 months old) and asked if I could get a refund.
I refused to return an $.85 object that was older than me!
He really kept an $.85 receipt for over 19 years?
When companies consider their return policies, they weight all risks including those customers who will take advantage of them. As long as it doesnt hurt their reputation or bottom line, they will put up with those customers.
The only thing I will say for certainty is that the torah demands “midvar sheker tirchak” even if the return policy is quite liberal.
I heard that someone came to Costco with a watermelon shell and said that they ate it a couple of days ago and it was not good…. they gave him back the money!
Droid-
He kept everything not just that reciept.
He always made sure to never waste anything but I still don’t know if he was joking or not since he always kept a straight face.
So how did you ever know when he was cracking a joke?
A coworker of mine loves fish. In fact has a 60 gallon fishtank on his desk at work. He only buys his fish from petstores that guarantee their fish for at least a week. I’m not quite sure how they can make such a guarantee, but witnessed him return 2 dead fish to the store for a full refund, no questions asked ($4 a fish).
I buy my live carp every Friday morning from a yukel who also gives me a guarantee that they will live for a week. When he tastes my gefilte fish on Sunday morning, he gives me a refund – and fast!
Just because you can possibly get away with something “iffy” doesn’t mean you should! Ask yourself first, would I do business with me?
Actually I just tried fluorescent bulbs in my bedroom fixture, which is subject to power surges. I purposely bought the cheapest, knowing that I’d never bother returning a bulb that I paid so little for, but also knowing that my time is also worth more than being tempted to return the more expensive ones (3x/price). I was right; the one I installed blew after 3 hrs and tripped my circuit breaker. I chucked it and the other one that I did not even bother installing, and ate the loss. I then read that power surges kill even the brand name fluorescents, so that is the end of that.
The store I bought it from is a reliable Jewish owned supermarket and they would have refunded my money, but it was not worth my time to get back the amount I spent. Probably it was not halachically right for me to return the bad bulb anyway, only the unused one, because I had more than a reasonable suspicion that it would blow.
I was once at a customer service desk at a suoermarket, and someone had just returned a cakebox with only one thin slice left in it.
They accepted it back, but it seemed very unfairnto the merchant.
There are stores-companies that have amazing return policies, like – “any reason, anytime” (Lands End for example). Now would it be considered taking advantage of the policy if one is to return an item to get a new size, or just to get a new one… Or, is the policy truly any reason anytime?
It is impotant to read the actual policy when deciding to make a return. I had a Lands End shirt that after 6 years was getting worn through on the sleeves so I decided that I would exchange it. When I read the actual policy:
If you’re not satisfied with any item, simply return it to us at any time for an exchange or refund of its purchase price.
I realizied that the shirt had exceeded my expectations and I was actually satisfied with it. I did not go through with the exchange.
I know this story firsthand, I witnessed the phone conversation. Someone called Lands End asking if it was possible to buy just a pair of pants from a suit. He explained that he gained weight and needed the next size pants but not the next size jacket. He went round and round with the agent who finally convinced him to return the pants for the next size. He tried explaining that he wasn’t unhappy with the pants, and she told him but you are unhappy, with the size, send it back for the next one. He explained that he WAS happy with the pants, he was not satisfied that he gained weight. After 15 minutes of going round and round he finally gave in and accepted the RMA number to make the exchange. Same company, I had a shirt that the collar frayed. It was at least 3 years after I bought it. They asked me to send it to them for analysis. I did and forgot about it. About 6 weeks later I got a check for the full purchase price of the shirt along with a note explaining how their lab determined that the fibers used in the shirt were not up to their standards and it should not have frayed. They may not be the most stylish or have the coolest logo, but we keep going back to them.
Droid-
I could never tell. I probably laughed at some serious stuff that he said.
real-brisker-
He didn’t just save that receipt, he saved everything, and in an organized manner. It was fascinating looking back at all the stuff from 70 to 80 years ago that most people wouldn’t have bothered saving.
The hardware store was around the corner and looked like it was there for many years. I can’t guarantee that it was the same company (I didn’t look) but it looked like a standard switch.
forget halacha for a second…al pi did you may be able to exploit vagueness in a return policy…but you all know it’s intended purpose. Lands End, and all these other companies, implement such return policies to attract customers. they accept torn clothing in exchange for new clothing to promote sales. note the word sales. ill say it again…SALES!!! once more…a little more vociferously…SSSSSAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLEEEEEESSSSSSS!!! they do NOT intend it to be a once in a lifetime purchase. they want you to be so satisfied with their service that they will be the company you turn to for all your clothing needs. how do they accomplish that by having their products traded up for 30 years?
they dont! its not the return policy’s intended purpose. in other words its cheating the system. ill say it again. cheating. see the word i used? CHEATING!!! now al pi din you may be able to get away with that, but al pi yashrus? definitely not.
bomb: You are very wrong. If the company purposely has a very liberal return policy, and by company policy accepts returns for any reason (to attract sales as you stated), it is fully kosher al pi din AND totally yashrus to fully take advantage of that liberal return policy that the merchant implemented. After all, you were attracted to become their customer partially as a result of their very liberal return policy — just as the store intended.
bomb- wow you really feel very strongly about this…. Chill out! I think that the store knows what troubles they may run into when setting up such a policy but its obviously worth it for them. I will tell you that most people will buy faster in Lands End or Costco (or the like) rather than a store that gives you a hard time with returning or only has 30 days or something.
not at all. not even slightly. there is no way the store intends for people to buy clothing once and just keep rolling it over. no company intends to facilitate its own insolvency. now you can say that when a company sets forth such a liberal return policy they know that people will exploit it so you can go ahead and exploit it because the company knows it will be exploited…does that mean that the company WANTS to be exploited? NO! nu…so why did they implement such a liberal return policy? because for the things they wanted to allow…it would have taken a book the size of the tax code to distinguish between what they want and what they allow. so they didnt bother. does that make returning clothing for the next size is right? no. not even close.
It doesn’t matter what the company “wants”; the only thing that matters is what the store promised the customer its return policy was at the time of the purchase, that enticed the customer to buy. If the terms of the return policy read to allow a return of a 30 year old product for any reason, the customer is fully entitled to make that return 30 years later, even if the store would have rather he forgot that policy as it was made and promised to the customer.
bomb- I hate to sound so strong but I think you are dead wrong! I dont know if you shop in Costco but they just made a new rule that they wont take back any electronics after 90 days because they felt like they were losing out…. They saw it didnt pay for them anymore. But the same is not true with their fruits, vegatables, clothing or anything else in the store. Apparently for that its worth it and the policy is good for them.
so you see that they do assess if its worth it for them….
im not talking about COULD im talking about SHOULD
youre all making the case for why its mutar…not why its yashar
Read it again, I made the case why it’s yashar.
If you had to make the return in person, in front of a long line of customers would you do it? That is my litmus test for yashar for the average person.
There is something that all must be aware of …. Though its great to buy in places which have these no question return policies , there is also a Very BIG problem.
What do they do with the returned item ??
If its worn out , they throw in garbage.
But what if you simply are unhappy and it seems perfect (though you used it – maybe once or twice)
Most often they clean it up (they have in house repair and cleanup dept in stock room) and put it out for sale again.
Just like they take your return , so too they take anybody else’s return.
So sometimes you may be buying something that was a previous return ……
PROBLEM is — Items that are used for food … China (not kasherable), pots & pans , appliances etc
There is a real issue with Kashrus.
If they were used “Once” its already a problem !!
The times when they cant/dont clean them up – they send them back to the manufacturer. Who in turn can either refurbish them , or sell them in their OUTLET stores.
Telltale signs are … “Seconds” , “floor samples” etc.
But truth is you can never know for sure.
Ask them , if you purchase a dinnerware set if you can use and return – they will say Yes ……!!!
Always buy by Frum store – besides giving Parnassa to yid (and often competitive price too) , you will stay away from being Nichshul in possibly having treif keilim.
youre all making the case for why its mutar
I did nothing of the kind.
The Wolf
If you wear an item for a season and wish to return it, I personally believe that it would not be halachiacly righteous to return this item for another one. But that said, if you are destitute and that is the stores policy, consider it a source of charity from big business. But of course, one must of course consult their own soul on all of these simple and needless agonizing decisions. That said, I personally would not return an item that I have used more than a few standard times. But of course, you never know what your needs are. These return policies are well thought out and it is not against the Law of our People to use the standard methods of return policies by established operations. This goes without saying.
None of the posters has so far addressed another (and perhaps the most important) aspect of this situation. The Chillul Hashem. When a certain segment of the population (i.e. Heimishe Yidden.) in a rural area that sees an explosive seasonal increase in the population.(?????”?). keeps returning items after being well-worn and used. Be it clothing, footwear or electrical appliances, it borders on a major Chillul Hashem. To such an extent that the managers and staff at those major chain stores look askew when a Heimishe Yid just enters the store. Some items are even returned in damaged condition. When there is a question of Chillul Hashem, all other Halachic aspects fall by the wayside.
droid…you made no case for yashrus. you said that the customer is perfectly entitled. al pi halacha…sure. he is. al pi yashrus…
It just doesn’t seem right to get a free replacement after 30 years of normal wear and tear. The merchant must have lost lots of money. It doesn’t seem proper or appear proper. Just because someone got away with it doesn’t mean its ok! Maybe the employee, who did it was wrong.
Chessed they don’t put back to sell I was in cosco early in morning when they had a big truck taking away the returns and I was in an other store parking lot and there was a guy by the dumpster smashing things I asked what he’s doing they said he is destroying all returns so no body will take out of the trash…
Real Brisker; Because when an overwhelming segment of the population
behaves in a certain socially negative way, it reflects on the rest of that identifiable minority. The phenomenon of “Yisroel Areivim Zeh Lozeh” is at work, whether we like it or not. The general society look at Jews not as individuals but as a group. That works for good or for bad. Besides, Halachically it is not so certain that it is permitted. There is such a thing in Halacha as ??????. (Asmachta). Meaning, that even if a certain business entity does create a very generous return policy, they didn’t anticipate that the overwhelming majority of the items purchased will be returned after being used for a long period of time and in worn condition.
Golden Mom – Though its true they sometimes destroy the item , thats primarily when they get reimbursed by the manufacturer for it (store wouldnt take the loss) , which is common by electronics (actual cost to the manufacturer is minimal and not worth the repair time) , but household items , such as China – cost product is high to manufacture , and they would not simply refund unless item is returned.
I have a neighbor who had been the purchasing manager at one of the Major dept stores , she told me without a doubt they receive many returns especially right after “the holidays” , sometimes even with food still on.
And she said the store would clean and repackage.
The times they dont , it is sent to the manufacturer who in turn can clean and relabel and package looking good.
Most often sent to their “Outlet Stores”.
Ever wonder where “Seconds” come from and how they are found. It is common from a customer who received and found the imperfection and returned to the store/manufacturer – and at times after altready been used………
My point is – being that you CANNOT know without certainty, and the policy for the returns are so liberal – one who is concerned with Kashrus (hope that means All of us) versus saving few pennies , would refrain from buying in such places. And would Opt for a Frum store , where they are aware of the issue and ONLY sell New.
So all dishes and utensils must be suspected of possibly being returns previously used with non-kosher food and thereby possibly treif?
buying a new air conditioner at the beg. of the summer and giving back an air conditioner at the end of the summer is a total chillul hashem eventhough according to store policy regulations it is allowed.
Real-Brisker:
The may have to write it was “used” – if they know for a fact.
HOw about the people who used and cleaned it to be able to return , and didnt tell the store ??!!!
I also mentioned that at times it gets recycled to the company and lands in the putlet store…. ever read the fine print at outlet store regarding the products ?? It states it there…….
Also suspect is purchasing from Websites (non fum) , again as to the return policies….
Droid:
Not that you are now required to throw everything out.
But Knowing and recognizing the potential REAL problems, should be a reason not to do it going forward ( i.e. L’chatchila )
Guys- I am confused. if they let you return it then you can. Dont abuse the system and just use your common sense.
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