Responsibility to serve – without the politics

Rabbiofberlin: Any reason you brought me into this thread? I didn’t even say anything here. I don’t think I have ever stated a political position on this site (I try to avoid them in real life as well) and I’d like it to stay that way, thank you.

Health, the evil kings did far worse things than any Israeli PM but they had the din of kings. Achav and Omri were among the worst yet they merited the kingship, Achav because he honored the Tora (and the Israeli government honors Tanach quiz winners and gives stipends to avereichim), Omri because he added a region and cities to EY (Sanhedrin 102b).

Somebody has to do it. Now that the Chareidim are becoming so large they will also have to take some part. This is also for their own good as it is manifest that only a small portion are built for all-day life-long learning. The result of the current system is that many guys get into trouble or just walk about aimlessly (check out Geula and Mea Shearim during seder hours) to the detriment of the Cahreidi public.

If they are 75%, you cant assume that the 25% will work like dogs , serve in the army and do whatever the majority will want without a fight.

At 75% you will need charedi doctors, Charedi bus drivers, charedi construction workers, charedi farmers , charedi policemen and charedi soldiers etc.

ok, let’s take it that there will be 75% chareidi, and let’s makke it a given that the chareidim won’t serve in the army unless drastic measures are taken (no women singers shomer shabbos, shomer kashrus badatz) the only other option is that there will be an amendment to the law that you don’t need to work in the army in order to get a job

do you have any better ideas? (and no, cutting funding, etc will only make it worse)

additionally when it is 75% of the population then they will elect a religious cabinet that will implement something totally drastic

you mean the flag stuffing? maybe your right. that much ill give you. you named a wide range of rabbonim, from the yu crowd to chassidish, as im sure you know. if youd like to know what the yeshivish/right wing rabbonim would say, id think theyd listen to what their gedolim are saying. like saying avinu malkeinu during shacharis and mincha for the next ten days to be mivatel this gzeira rah. Heck, even R ovadia said so, and he isnt known to be on the yeshivish spectrum at all. and liberal narrow mindedness could be understood with a bit of kishrin. it means that if you decide to be mishabed your train of thought to the tide of liberalness sweeping the modern world, you will be close minded to the approach of our gedoley oilam who view all things as per torah hashkafa. hate is a word to be understood before you decide when its necessary. we are told to hate the evil deeds of reshaim, and trying to force people to go against psakim from their rabbonim, with the likely result being a lower standard of observance of yiddishkeit, and the exposure of the nations holiest to things they couldnt imagine pre-induction, is something to be hated. the mind frame that causes people to think they are doing the will of Hashem, while in reality allying themselves with reshaim who seek to abolish all forms of torah and mitzvos, is one to be decried and likewise abhored. i once heard in a weekly parshah shiur on the subject of zimri being oiver his aveirah of kannoim pogim bo, that zimri was having kavanos for tikun haoilam and other worthy causes. needless to say he was mistaken, and pinchas was zocheh to brisi shalom as a result. sometimes things that look like an act of murder cant be understood except by those who are truly in tune with the will of Hashem, and are in truth acts to preserve shalom. emotions of the layman neednt and indeed shouldnt be involved.

Coffee addict: You are correct until a point, but surely you realize that there is a tremendous difference between a Nes Nigleh and a Nes Nistar. Now, everything related to the IDF so far have been Nisim G’luyim, but there is a scale. HBKH is much more willing (i.e. it takes far fewer Zechuyos from us or however these things work in HKBH’s Cheshbonos) to do Nisim the less G’luyim they are. Thus, the more people we have serving in the IDF the less Nigleh each Nes is and thus the more likely HKBH will perform it for us. Does that make any sense?

And all that aside, we are not supposed to rely on Nissim. Thus, having an army that can hold its own even without apparent Nissim probably has some value in its own right.

you didnt address half my post. ill continue to follow our gedolim, you keep following your heart. R weber went to YU.

CA: I don’t understand your position. You say we don’t rely on miracles but that we know that they’ll happen anyway? How does that make sense?

yichusdik -“The purpose of the land was to serve as a yerusha for b’nei Avrohom, Yitzchok and Yaakov. Yaakov Ovinu had a fine parnossah by Lovon. but he left his fine parnossoh to take his inheritance. Here endeth lesson one.”

Yes, we all know it was a Yerusha, but my point was – what is the purpose? They used the land for Parnossa. This ain’t rocket science.

“You are sure? How? from what source? I not only cited the posuk, I also cited the Kesef Mishna on defending Jews being a milchemes chovah.

of the world: they do not conduct warfare like the rest of Israel, nor do they receive a portion [of the land]
on their behalf, as it says, “I am Your share and Your portion.”

We are talking about all Jews, not specifically Leviim. Did I miss the announcement? Did all of us suddenly become honorary leviim?”

Now you’re just engaging in mind-playing by not quoting the next Rambam in 13:13 -“And not just Shevet Levi can do this -anybody in the world can be just like them…”

From this Rambam we learn that people can sit and learn Torah all day and are exempt from what other Jews have to do.

So therefore the tribes who wanted a Nachla had responsibilities that Levi didn’t have. The tribes who wanted a Nachla over the Jordan river, didn’t want to be like Shevet Levi -that’s why they asked for a Nachla. They didn’t want to learn all day, but they wanted to work. So Moshe Rabbeynu said just because your Nachla will be Ever L’Yardain -you still have to help the rest of Klal Yisroel fight.

Actually the Army doesnt want the Charedim to serve, theyd rather not have them.

But there is a solution I think agrees with everyone , Someone said make it a positive to join, how about make it a negative not to serve.

The Charedi Gedoilim have said its a Shaas Shmad not to serve, but they didnt say the government had to give Benefits. Simple only give social benefits to those who serve. The charedi population is poor, they need those benefits or they will starve.

So let them deny the vote to Arab citizens.

If they want to deny Chareidim benefits, Chareidim will no longer have to pay Israeli taxes. No more income or sales or VAT tax for Chareidim and they won’t take benefits.

Choppy, which Chareidi taxes? The Israeli Chareidim are fed by the Israeli taxpayers! (Except, for the few Chareidi shkotzim that work)

mdd: You tell ’em. You’d of made a great spokesman for Czar Nicholas II. Those Russian Jews kept trying to defy the laws of Russia. Evading the draft. Running away from pograms. And they wondered why they suffered negative consequences!? They should of enlisted in the Czar’s Army as the law demanded!

Da’as Yochid, you are right. The question is though if it is HaShem’s will or extreme E.Yisroeldike zachen.

The US Government isn’t implementing a Shaas Shmad to force the Torah leit out of the Beis Medrash and into an infamously immoral army.

zahavasdad -“Also there is no constitution in Israel”

Exactly! So what legal right did the Israeli Supreme Court have in throwing out the Tal law? None whatsoever! There is No constitution and there is No Bill of Rights – so there was nothing wrong with the Tal law. No laws in that country have to apply equally to every citizen. This is just the Supreme Court applying their power to discriminate against the Charedim.

Since most of the Chilonim hate the Frumme, they jumped on this Supreme Court decision, instead of ignoring it and impeaching the Justices for making an improper decision.

Stop mentioning the Czarist Russia, a Torah state is not a democracy, either. The Jews in Russia never ever did what the Israeli Chareidim do, or the Russians would have made them feel so sorry for that. A country can not allow itself just to be ”feift on’. The Czar would have never paid for all those people to be in kollel forever.

The charedim generally take more in benefits than they pay in taxes, since most dont work and 56% of them are in poverty, they get social benefits.

The can threaten to move to the US, unfortunatly many of them are not US citizens and even if they are married to a US citizen visas for spouses of US citizens have been more difficult to get since 9/11 (Its been a point of contention nothing to do with Charedim in particular, just with Israelis wanting to come to the US)

And then there is the cost, It costs at $1000 a plane ticket per person to come to the US, a minimum of $10,000 per charedi family just for the plane tickets (assuming 8 kids and 2 adults) then you have to pay for US passports and then you will have to pay the costs of settling in the US (IE deposts on rent, purchase of all new possesions) at least anout $500 per person. which is $1500 a person MINIMUM (A US passport costs $110 if you dont expedite it) with 600,000 Charedim in israel it would cost $900,000,000 to bring them all to the US (and thats a low number, restttlement costs would likely be higher as shipping costs of things like Seforim would be expensive)

Finally there is not enough capacity on the airlines to transfer that many people (You just cant add flights due to landing restrictions in major US airports due to overcrowding)

So they are for the most part stuck there.

Frankly I think its a game of chicken, with both sides hoping the other backs down (usually the Pro-Draft people back down) but with both sides egging on the situtaion it seems headed for a showdown.

I do think if they cut back on benefits at least some will give in and go. Some will never give in and will need to go to jail for a few years before more will give in and some will never give in compating themselves to the Maharam M-rotenberg

Actually they are also discussing the issue of drafting Arabs as well, It just isnt getting the same press as the Charedim are.

The arabs are not against serving, they likely want to serve so they can get better jobs

Avi K- “to expect Israel to make due with a volunteer army due to its security situation and small population relative to its enemies. The taxes required to attract people, especially the type of technosavvy people most needed, would break the public.”

Again you write your theories as fact. They aren’t fact and they aren’t reasonable. They already pay many members of the army. Yes, they can have a paid and a volunteer army to serve Israel. Saying it’s financially unattainable is gibberish. Obviously you know nothing about armies. Saying you need to hire only “technosavvy” people is ridiculous. Yes, you have to have these, but does any foot soldier or any basic infantrymen have to be like this? Of course not. The biggest proof is the US army. If every enlisted guy had to be “technosavvy”, they would have lost every war. Most enlisted personel probably have either a below avg. or avg. IQ.

“As for guys who are not learning as they should, they are stealing from the public which supports them amd shirking their duty. This must stop.”

Whether it should stop or not is not your or the Israeli gov. concern. If you feel the RY or the admin. of a Yeshiva is not dealing properly with this problem, then by all means don’t donate to them.

This is also not a govs.’ concern, unless before they give money to any school they examine if everybody is learning the way they are supposed to. There are some public schools in the US that have horrible basic knowledge rates. Even in top colleges -do you really think e/o learns the way they are supposed to?

The fact that you keep pointing this out about Yeshivos and that you don’t mention this about other schools shows your bias against Charedim!