Respecting People: A Rant

emotican, what is %1000000 good on a secular studies test if their is no Yiddishkeit c”v? Nachas IS tied up with being a being frum and through our serving the Aibishter we can enjoy and work on different aspects in life that make up the whole person and their life.

Having nachas from an entire person based on a test or based on one part that is doing fine when the entire person is not is not nachas.

If you have a horn that still works in a car that is so broken it cannot move, will you still have nachas from that car?

If one feels that the MAIN thing in life is for a Jew to ACT, to BE, and to LIVE Jewish otherwise he is a shell of a Jew, then how can one have nachas if one minor part of him is doing good?

So then who is set in their way of thinking and is not open to changing it?

I have arrived to my conclusions after much doubt and searching and have come up with truthful answers. After coming to conclusions based on weighing the most challenging of life’s questions I will not change my mind because of that fact that a poster in the CR is stuck on the Aztecs or the Fatima story or some other inconsiquential subject. I don’t mind having a good argument, but I do mind going around in circles.

My questions, reasoning and probing was centered on life’s main questions similiar to the ones I posted to you yesterday (btw, there were three questions as you see even though I mistakenly wrote a 2 by the last question).

I have come to my conclusions. I am not trying to make you change your mind about anything as it says everything is in the hands of Shomayim besides yira Shomayim. So if Hashem gave the bechira for a person to choose what they want believe I certainly cannot change that.

I originaly thought the way you do but changed my mind after actually seeing both sides of the arguments.

So I hope you have clear answers FOR YOURSELF not for me, to the questions I presented to you yesterday regarding the crucial issues in life because one day you’re going to face these realities and there will be no hiding behind your choice to believe or not to.

Have you actualy looked into and researched these “proofs”? (BTW by “looked into” I dont mean read a book by someone who agrees with your preconceived view of things and how they portray their opponent’s arguments.)Or have you simply decided they are good proofs because you read a book by somone who thinks so, or havnt thought of any way to disprove them yourself?

The logical proofs I believe in are my own logic after doing research, thinking and analyzing. Just like I did in The Torah is Emes thread.

I certainly won’t take “facts” as such from scientists who are athiests and cannot answer the simple, basic question of how did life begin. They ignore that question and instead build whole buildings on no foundations with their “scientific proofs”.

I also do not believe other religions which are fake copies or other manmade junk that with basic common sense one can see they have no hands nor feet.

I originaly thought the way you do but changed my mind after actually seeing both sides of the arguments.

Wonderful. I’m sure you have all the answers I posed to you yesterday and otherwise I’m sure you are %100 that the Torah is not divine. Therefore, since you are so sure of yourself, since you are totaly convinced that you don’t believe the Torah to be divine , then you have nothing to worry about and enjoy your life.

Just remember, if the truth sometime hits you in your face there will be no excuses.

aries2756: You’ve already said 2 or 3 times you won’t continue arguing, and then you go right ahead doing just that. It seems it is you who “needs to be right.”

apusehtayid and aries, you people are not being honest because I say I act with respect to them but I don’t respect them and you decided that the fact that I don’t respect their actions means I don’t act with respect to them. YOU DECIDED HOW I ACT TO THEM AND WRITE THEM AS FACTS.

You see whant you want to.

In addition how many times to I have to repeat myself that people change because they want to not because I say something?

Philo, the reason there is no point discussing anything with you is because you just want to argue and answer everyone point by point because of your “need to be right”.

No one is forcing you to respond to me. There is no point in your responding to my posts that I address to you if you don’t want to, unless you have that “need to be in the right”.

aries, by the way, I thought you are not going to respond to me. Why aren’t you letting my answers slide off you, as you said you will do?

Anyway,please cut out your therapist/counselor assumptions and decide what I base my decisions on. I have only told you about one OTD person and I have not told you about the first hand knowledge that I have of a lot of OTD’s.

As far as the other posters that said that RESPECT needs to be earned, that is a goyish concept

Interesting. A Jew who has left the fold has the almost the same halachas as a goy has regarding the way we treat him regarding many issues (excluding acting with respect towards them , which I never objected to). Sinners have different halachas as well regarding dan lkaf zchus and loshen hora. Is that because we are to respect a frum Jew the same as a non-frum Jew?

According to the Torah. WE are commanded to respect ALL of Hashem’s creations therefore RESPECT is a given

Good, go ahead respect Hitler and Stalin y”s, respect Osama bin Laden, respect Madoff, respect those who abuse others, respect them in the same vein you respect all sinners and kofrim.

I constantly meet young men and young ladies who look familiar to me and I can’t place them. And then I remember that young good looking yeshiva boy, used to have really long hair and was really rough around the edges. They come over and say Mrs ” “, remember me?

If you had a hand in making them frum great, but please excuse me if I doubt your insinuations that you created many baal teshuvos as you sound to be yes, a nice caring person, but also naive and full of self importance, basing your total assumptions of how I came to my decisions on the fact that I helped a freind.

WIY, wonderful. Let’s see how you will act when you’re taken adavantage of.

I don’t you would continue long term chesed for someone who just knows how to take and take without even a thank you or appreciation. (Obviously, I’m not talking about a sick person or invalid, I’m talking about a normal human being).

For everyone who has a heavy-handed approach and attitude to kiruv – get off your pedestal and come down to earth with the rest of us. MOST OTD teens became that way ebcause of people who spoke to them as you suggest (too strongly, btw). Just as with a wounded animal, you need to speak gently, softly, and act slowly and sensitively, so too do you need to act with a yiddishe neshama that has been wounded. if you don’t GET that by now, you have no idea how to bring people closer to Hashem.

People who are ehrlcihe frum who work in kiruv day and night, have learned that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. Stop preaching fire and brimstone, and start preaching acceptance. People don’t go OTD in one day, and they don’t come back in one day, either. If they are so disenchanted, they need to be able to see that the frum world CARES about them. That is not what I am hearing from some of the expressions being used by some individuals here. Others (like Aries), who are being argued with, have got it right, and I am certain they are doing a great job, and making a kiddush Hashem all the time.

BTW, as regards the concept of “thank-you” – it is VERY important for people to be makir tov to other people who have done even a small kindness for them (like opening the door for them). If one cannot be makir tov to a human being who does naarishkeiten tovos for us, as well as more substantial things, then how can one EVER know how to be makir tov to Hashem, whose chessed to us is daily and boundless? How many people really have the right kavanah when they said,”Modeh ani,” “Modim,” “V’anachnu korim,u’mishtachavim u’MODIM?”

philosopher:

My point is that if you decide to do someone a chesed dont expect to get something back. If you cant give without expecting something back that may be something that you personally need to work on. The reason why people who work with OTD are successful is because they do it for the kid. Not their own ego to feel good. If you are focused on the other person you dont care that you dont get the thank you and if they dont appreciate.

How many people do ANYTHING for their kids even though 99% of kids do not appreciate what is done for them?

Thats the idea. You give becaus eyou love the person and want to help them regardless of how much appreciation you will get.

Obviously if you are not up to the task dont get involved. Nobody says you have to be involved with OTD kids if you dont have what it takes.

WIY, if you constantly give in a non personal relationship then you are right. If you give as a freind and it’s not appreciated then you become burnt. Not because one is focused on getting the thank you’s but because people have an intrinsic need to be appreciated (no frum people are not expected to get some appreciation – the minute they turn OTD and cry that they were never appreciated then it’s a different story).

Obviously if you are not up to the task dont get involved. Nobody says you have to be involved with OTD kids if you dont have what it takes.

I was going to try to stop being so abrasive, but you make it hard for me. HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT MYSELF THAT I’M NOT INVOLVED NOR DO I WISH TO BE INVOLVED WITH OTD’S?

I was acting with my freind as a FREIND. And a freind expects appreciation (most do anyway). And I ended that relationship (as did my other freinds) because we were being taken adavantage of.

“My point was that a persons obligation to say thank you is because they have to be a mentsch. However you have no right to demand or expect a thank you because in reality you didnt do anything and its actually inappropriate to take the credit for something that Hashem gave you and enabled you to do. “

I guess we disagree on this point. In fact, my Rov (who is VERY big on haloras hatov), gave and entire drasha on Shabbos Shuva, how people who are not makir tov to other people, cannot possibly be makir tov to Hashem. If you don’t recognize a tova that someone does for you, you will also not recognize the depth of what Hashem does for you. And by the way, no one should demand a thank you (unless a parent is trying to teach good manners to a child), but we have every right to expect people to HAVE good manners. if not, they are boorish and ill-bred. People might get their parnassah from HAshem ultimately, but if they choose to use that parnassah to give a down and out friend an open-ended loan (as opposed to buying yet another car or going on yet another vacation), do you not think that merits a little appreciation? A simple thank-you can go a long way, if it is heartfelt.

PHILOSOPHER,

No offense taken, I hope I didnt come across as condescending and if I did I apologize.

Philosopher said,

“The logical proofs I believe in are my own logic after doing research, thinking and analyzing. Just like I did in The Torah is Emes thread.

I certainly won’t take “facts” as such from scientists who are athiests and cannot answer the simple, basic question of how did life begin. They ignore that question and instead build whole buildings on no foundations with their “scientific proofs”.”

We are not talking here about the origin of life or even if there is a G-D. We are discussing if the divinity of the Torah is provable through logic. All I am saying is that all the proofs you brought arn’t good, and that if you would simply read what the people who agree with my position write, (and not what their opponents say they say) you would see that what I am saying is correct. For some reason however it would seem from your answer that you would be unwilling to do this.

I would go into more detail, but this is not the forum for it for the reason I mentioned in my earlier post among others.

Have a good Shabbos.

000646 ah gutten voch.

You didn’t come across condescending at all and that’s why I apologized for my tone. In fact, I loved our discussions about the Aztec’s and other topics.

The reason I don’t want to discuss with you what wasn’t posted is this: the Torah is emes regardless if we humans view it as such or not. It doesn’t matter. The truth is the truth. And why I can say that with such conviction is the more I learn, look and contemplate in the Torah, the more I see logical proofs that it is the truth. If the Torah would be untrue, under analysis, it would fall apart.

Now I am aware that you have what you consider valid evidence that the Torah is not from a divine source.

So why wouldn’t I want to discuss that angle?

It is very simple. Since I believe in God, in a Creator, would an atheist scientist, may he be considered a top scientist in his field, tell me, let me show you my proofs that there is no Creator. I’ll discuss with you all my “scientifical evidence” and I even created a computerized model of how the world came into being and I even have it here on a disk.

Would I even look at that? The answer is no. I’m not even interested bacause for me there is a Creator and it doesn’t matter what kind of evidence a human brain can come up with support of their theories that there is no Creator to make it seem like it’s a fact that there is no Creator. It doesn’t interest me in the least bit. Kol sheken, would such a fabrente athiest scientist argue with me and try to prove the validity of his “proofs” I’d say “You will not concince me, and I will not convince you that there is a Creator, so what’s the point in arguing about it?”

So while you are not arguing about the whether there is a Creator or not, you are trying to prove to me that the Torah is not of a divine source, which I know with complete, unshakeable faith that it is. So what’s the point of our going back and forth?

I am not interested to hear what human brains have cooked up to invalidate the fact that the Torah is not of a divine source. What seems convincing in this day and age to humans can seem totaly stupid in 100 years. Look at ancient Egypt, with their belief in gods which they worshipped and believed in. Who believes today that their beliefs were valid? In fact one wonders how normal humans ever believed in what seems to us as plain fairytales.

Throughout the centuries people always came up with meshugasin and as real as it seemed then as dumb as it seems to us that the people believed in such things.

And so even if millions of people believe in the Hindu religion, I certainly don’t think that a god can be made of gold and stone and neither do I believe in Christianity and Islam which are manmade versions of Judaism for a variety of reasons.

If you claim that Judaism doesn’t make sense either or any religion for that matter, then do you think God made us for no reason at all? Do you think this amazing gift of life is something that is stam because God wanted to have fun? If we go with that reasoning then there is no reason not to steal, murder, or do any other sin that humans innately know is wrong because there is no reason not to do that if we were created for no reason at all. Life is then a free for all. For what purpose do I need to be kind to others, for what purpose do I need to follow the law of land (I’ll hide my illegal stuff so I won’t get caught and go to jail) for what purpose do I need to do what’s right?

There has to be some reason why we were created, why we need to do right because then otherwise the Muslim terrorists are not terrorists at all, the Nazis weren’t bad people, and neither were those who took part in the Inquisition – they all just followed their accepted ideological reasoning of their times.

And therefore, looking at all reasoning of humans throughout the ages and throughout the world, with all their mushagasin, and foolish ideas and all their cruelty, I am not interested in what they have to say, I’m not interested in their reasoning regarding the Torah. And I’m also not interested in trying to change your mind just as I’m not interested in trying to change an athiests mind, because I cannot change anyone’s mind if they are not open to what I’m saying. I can sit here from today until eternity, we can go back and forth and I will not change your mind because belief that the Torah is from a divine source needs to come from YOUR HEART, not my blogs.

I do believe that in your pintele Yid you believe that the Torah is divine. But for various reasons your heart doesn’t feel it. But if you will search for the real truth you will eventually, with Hashems help, find it.

aries, I actually just went over the begining of the thread to see if I’m at fault and need to apologize to you but I see that I responded to you when you posted that no one has a right to judge others (meaning I can’t judge OTD’s). Although you didn’t call me by name it was pretty obvious you were addressing me.

Anyway, regardless, let’s call it a truce.

And why I can say that with such conviction is the more I learn, look and contemplate in the Torah, the more I see logical proofs that it is the truth

That was a mistake on my part. I believe the Torah is divine even if I would not see any logical proofs of that.

What I meant to write is that I believe that Torah is divine AND the more I learn, contemplate and analyze, the more I find logical proofs of the Torah’s divinity.

Since every Jewish soul was at Har Sinai, in each of us there is an intrinsic belief that the Torah is divine, but sometimes because of vairous reasons some of us may not be conscious of that fact.

Philosophersaid,

“That was a mistake on my part. I believe the Torah is divine even if I would not see any logical proofs of that.”

Exactly! You have already made up your mind about what you want to beleive and nothing can change that. Saying that and trying to

convince people that your beleif will lead them to a happier life may be succesfull.

Telling them that they should beleive in the Torah because it is the logical thing to do, and people who dont think it is logical only think so because they have already made up THEIR minds not to beleive while you yourself admit that you beleive JUST BECAUSE YOU DO is simply wrong and will come across as arrogant hypocritical and wrong to many people.

Why should we do chessed to a frei person if they don’t deserve it? Why on Purim does it say “Anybody who sticks out a hand -we give them money”, the rest of the year we are allowed to look if they are indeed needing of Tzedaka? The answer is (that I heard), on Purim a lot of people ask for things from Hashem more than the rest of the year. The day is M’sugal for our tefillos to be answered. But Hashem always judges us up Midda keneged midda, what if we don’t deserve the thing we are asking for? Therefore, we don’t ask a person collecting Tzedaka on Purim if they deserve it -so when Hashem judges up on Purim -he will say midda keneged midda -just like that person didn’t look at the poor person before he gave him money to see if he deserved it -I’ll also not look at the person who is davenning to me to see if he deserves what he is asking for. The same thing with a frei person -if we don’t look at whether they are deserving of the chessed, but do it anyway -then when we need a chessed -Hashem won’t look at us to see if we deserve it!

WIY, thanks for “getting it”!. WE just don’t know how much our words will either impress or destroy others. Our smile or Good day might be the only smile or kind word some person might be greeted with the entire day. And as explained in the article, our snide remarks even if it is meant as a joke, can cut a person off at the knees and follow them around for the rest of their lives.

We just don’t know what impression each one of us will and do have on others. Whether they are yiddin or goyim because we either make a chilul Hashem or a kidush hashem with our speech and our actions (or even in-action). We each have a responsible to the people whose lives we pass through on a daily basis. The question which has been debated here and is asked by Rabbi Eisenman is what exactly is the responsibility? Is it to encourage good behavior or to berate what WE determine to be bad behavior?

BTW, HEalth, when I wrote “you,” I did not mean YOU. I am, sure you seek to do chessed for all people.

Philosopher, when I read your posts I feel like I have written them. It’s creepy.

Count me in as well, philosopher. Couldn’t agree with you more.

Everyone speaks loshon hora and has sinas chinum. Just because everyone does it, doesn’t make it right. This is why we are in the 9 days!

wow aries, that was really powerful. thanks!

000646, you gave me food for thought and I’ve been thinking the last few days if our thinking and coming to conclusions is of no consequense to us if the bottom line is that the truth is the truth, regardless of how we look at it. What if I thought my parents and teachers were hypocrates and I couldn’t take an example of what they taught? Does my analyzing and coming to conclusions mean nothing? Do we only need emunah peshutah and our thinking and analyzing has no value?

Furthermore, if reshoyim have no emunah peshutah in Judaism, which is quite understandable, then why is it their fault if they do evil things? For example, can we blame the Crusaders for killing out whole Jewish communities if their priests goaded these Crusaders to do that because of religious reasons? If the Jews didn’t want to accept their “true religion” then it was the “right” thing for these Crusaders to kill these “unbelievers” . Didn’t they have a right to their belief? Much like Islamic terrorists today, don’t they have a right to their religious belief that according to the Koran “infidels” have to be annihilated?

The answer is that within every human being Hashem gave the instinctive knowledge of the Sheva Mitzvos Bonei Noach which are mitzvos that one insticively knows that one cannot violate. To violate these mitzvos one needs to silence the inner voice that knows instinctively that to do that is wrong. Here is where humans are different than animals: they have the ability to think and come to conclusions. But if they want their conclusions to be the truth, they cannot violate their inborn instincts that a human has to know right from wrong. If we deny this, then Nazis, Hizbollah, murderers, and any evil human cannot be demanded justice of.

The same is with us Jews. We instinctively know that the Torah is true. That’s why simple Jews who had little knowledge of Judaism, gave up their lives al kiddush Hashem throughout the ages. They listened to their inner voices of emunah peshutah, because it was there. Inherent within us Jews is the knowledge that the Torah is divine. We can either use our thinking abilities to silence that belief, or to recognize our belief in the divinity of the Torah.

we knew youd see the light.

I read the OP, (but I’m too lazy to read everything that’s been discussed until this point) and I think that we should be able to tolerate how others live, even if it’s not your hashkafa, so long as they don’t push whatever they’re doing that you’re not comfortable on you.