Respecting People: A Rant

Yanky R,

“Offering excuses, and sugarcoating the truth in fact is what makes OTD people think its okay being OTD, and discourages their return to sanity….It very well may put the fear of G-d back in them.”

A very large percentage of people who were frum and go OTD actually do not beleive that frumkeit is correct (for either emotional or logical reasons).

This being the case threatning them that they will burn in a gehenom that they dont beleive exsists or telling them that not keeping the Torah is evil when they dont beleive it is, wont be effective for obvious reasons.

Most people will be willing to beleive in somthing even if it dosnt completly make sense to them if they see that it “works” (leads to a happy meaningful life ect.) and will be reluctant or even refuse to beleive somthing that does make sense to them if they think it “dosnt work” (that it leads to a horrible unfair existence etc.). Trying to threaten somone into beleiving somthing will not only make you unconvicing but also can seem to support the latter feeling.

philosopher:

I never said one should respect the actions. Respect the person. Thats all I said. Respect the kid but still make it clear what he or she is doing is wrong and they have to stop as soon as possible.

Obviously one should have more respect for someone who has accomplished something. Well if these kids are OTD and then you see that the kid is working on themselves and changing they deserve respect for that.

WIY, please see my second post in this thread.

Aries, first of all, Mazel Tov on what must surely be a very proud accomplishment both for you and for the young man. May he bo zocheh to build a B”NB with his kallah.

I agree with virtually everything you posted (Philosopher is a she, btw), and I believe that love is mekareiv and harsh words and a “my way or the highway” attitude will have the opposite effect on someone already disenfranchised. The words that resonated the strongest with me, were when you wrote about the nachas of being off a suicide watch. Unfortunately, I am acquainted with two families who lost children to drugs (we want to believe the overdoses were accidental), but the pain of these very nice members of the community is still palpable after many years, nebbich.

Whether by deliberate suicide or accidental improper combinations of drugs and alcohol, the unfathomable pain for the parents of these kids can never go away. I applaud the rebbies, community members, professional therapists, etc. who look at these types of yiddishe neshamas as “lost” but not irretrievably so, and try to help them, not condemn them.

Philosopher:

You wrote to aries “However I don’t agree with your hashkafas regading how you relate to OTD’s and I think you are very trusting and a bit naive.

Make sure you don’t get burned. “

Whats that supposed to mean? Im pretty sure he has vast experience with these kids and knows what they are about and what to expect. I am also sure that there were kids that disappointed him. However if someone is doing it Lshem Shomayim he is happy with every child he helps and its not about keeping score or about us at all. Its about the kids. Even if you arent successful you still get schar for trying.

Im not sure what getting burned means in this context. If anything, it seems like he is being quite successful and he knows exactly how to deal with them. On the other hand you very likely have zero experience with these kids and technically have no right to argue because you cant discuss what you have no clue about. The only way to have a clue is to have shaychis with the kids, or with those who deal with such kids and hear what they have to say.

We should ask “kids at risk rabbi” for his perspective and vast experience, or read his thoughts on the “Cause For Teens At Risk?” thread.

You wrote to aries “However I don’t agree with your hashkafas regading how you relate to OTD’s and I think you are very trusting and a bit naive.

Make sure you don’t get burned. “

WIY, the truth is, that maybe aries won’t get burnt because if we don’t expect too much from people then we can’t get burnt. If we expect basic appreciation and manners from people that we help we can get burnt.

I will not get into how my freinds and I helped a friend that went OTD without any alterior motives, we just felt compasionate for her because she was in a very bad situation.

We went out of our way for her, but there was no thank you no appreciation, her basic manners were lacking. So of course, some will say, yeah well she was hurting, blah, blah and she could’t even say thank you, blah blah blah. My freinds and I felt washed out and used and just stopped giving.

So the truth is if you don’t expect too much from people you can’t get burnt. Yes, that sentence was a mistake on my part because some people don’t expect basic appreciation in return for their work.

If you feel that people should act like menchen you get upset when they don’t and take advantage of you.

With trusting I mean that, we can banech these OTD’s till tomorrow. The fact is that while I didn’t take a count of how many OTD kids were actually abused I can tell you that a large number of them were NOT abused. I have seen OTD kids going OTD because they wanted a different experience or other excuses which have nothing to do with being abused. Of course they’re gonna kvetch that they didn’t get enough att., a teacher picked at them, etc.

Life is not black and white. Just because OTD’s come with a boatload of excuses doesn’t mean they are such nebachs. I’ve seen people with harder lives than these OTD kids and they stayed frum.

If anything, it seems like he is being quite successful and he knows exactly how to deal with them.

Everyone measures success differently. I measure success by OTD’s returning to Yiddishkeit.

On the other hand you very likely have zero experience with these kids and technically have no right to argue because you cant discuss what you have no clue about

I know more than I’m going to write about. I have no interest of making a bigger hole in the can and letting out more worms. It serves no purpose.

The only way to have a clue is to have shaychis with the kids, or with those who deal with such kids and hear what they have to say.

How do you know from where I take my strong opinions from?

One thing I can tell you. I have seen what REALLY goes on, not what people claim goes on.

The power of teshuva and doing mitzvas is great, so is the power of evil.

There has been through the ages bigger and better people who couldn’t change the natural world order of bechira.

I am very suspicious of people who imply that all the experience they had with OTD was successful (yes blame that on my childhood/teenage family experience).

BTW, I am also a “she” it was an assumption on the part of philosopher that I was not.

Respect means acting like a mensch to everyone, regardless of your personal feelings or opinions. It means, not taking your annoyance out on a waitress, when the cook ruined the meal. It means not treating a young person as though he or she does not have a brain in the head, EVEN IF YOU HAVE REASON TO THINK SO. It means standing up for an older person, a rov, a parent or grandparent whent hey enter a room, or for a pregnant woman, or someone who is disabled,or carrying many packages, and offering your seat to them. It means acting with good manners even when someone else is showing poor ones. It means listening to another person’s point of view, even when it vastly differs from your own. It means being quiet when someone is giving a d’var Torah, even if the speaker’s voice is very boring, because he is speaking words of Torah. In fact, even if he is not speaking D”T, the fact that he is up there speaking (unless he is advocating hate or the like) is good enough reason to be respectful. I could go on an on and I am sure I left out some important criteria, especially as regards respect between husband and wife.

oomiss not that what I am to judge, but most of what you said is true, but you missed a major point. Of course you must be a mentch to everyone as in saying hello, offering your seat. And yes, to let some krum guy rattle off some shtusim is also menthclichkeit as long as you know you won’t be affected, or at least pretend you are listening. But when kavod HaTorah or talmidei chachomim or anyone who represents harbotzas torah is at stake, in a public matter ……. And a frum yid must know he is better than a fry yid even a tinok shenishba! It’s a chiyuv of makir es mikomcha – know your place! But that obligates him to be a better mentch NOT shtultz them out!

Perhaps you meant well, but maybe your friend didn’t take it that way or maybe it didn’t come out that way

She didn’t have to take up the offers if she didn’t like it. AND she asked for favors from us as well.

The world is full of well meaning people who end up doing a lot of NOT nice things

If babysitting her child and going out to resturaunts with her on our tab means “doing a lot of not nice things” then you have a point.

BTW, I am also a “she” it was an assumption on the part of philosopher that I was not

That was a few days back.

This time I had a feeling you were a woman, but I wasn’t completely sure so I didn’t refer to you as a he or she in the last few posts.

When you do a “favor” for another person you do so out of your own sense of goodness. When you continue to do so because you want to help that other person, you are making a choice whether you are doing this because this person needs your assistance (chesed) or do you expect something in return.

Depending on the nature of the relationship(meaning if the chesed is done for family memebers and freinds) , it is human nature to need appreciation from those you do chesed to and if someone just constantly turns to you for favors and doesn’t appreciate or acknowledge the favors with a thank you the desire to help peters out for most people.

You have to ask yourself, why am I doing this? Am I doing this l’shem mitzva because I want to do chesed or because I want to change this person and I believe I can help this person change.

Most people who help others do so l’shem mitzva.

When my freinds and I helped our freind we didn’t think she’s going to become frum just because we are babysitting her kid and we enjoyed conversing and eating in resturaunts. We felt we can give her space and enjoyment so that it might be easier for her to sort out her issues.

But in any case, that’s beside the point. The point is we didn’t like being taken advantage of by her not being appreciative like as if we didn’t have our families to take care of or a money tree growing in our backyard.

When someone does a favor for me I say “thank you so much”. When that favor is doen more than once I really make sure they realize my apprecitation. I think that is common decency and if someone doesn’t act with common dedcency then I wouldn’t bother going out of my way for them. I have enough with doing that for my parent whom I feel mechiav to do so.

We need to understand that WE can’t change others nor can we control others. WE can only change ourselves and control our own actions.

That is a very true statement.

The way we deal with others might change the way they react to us. So by doing favors for others, chesed, we feel good about ourselves that we do chesed.

That depends in each situations. Is someone taking advantage of you, are you doing more than ypu can handle, etc.

By helping someone to make them change their way of life, we usually set ourselves up for failure and for hurt.

That’s a true statement only if the person we are “helping” doesn’t want to change. Some teens desperately want to change and they want and need help with that.

When a person works with the at-risk population because they don’t expect anything in return, they love the children and want to do whatever they can to help, they will be successful with some and not with others, but every little step, every little connection or improvement along the way is a tremendous reward.

This is where we totaly disagree. I do not believe that a person who violates halacha can be considered as having been improved and if you connect with such people then whatever. The thing that should be of paramount importance to a frum Jew and what should be considered rewarding is an OTD returning to Yiddishkeit.

One thing I will say. No matter what a person thinks. A mitzva is a mitzva and even though they feel they might have been taken advantage of or they might not have been appreciated, they might not have seen an immediate result. But the kindness and concern shown did not fall on deaf ears or on a cold heart. YOU did have an effect although you don’t think you saw it. What was done for that individual stays with her through her journey and it will be remembered through the roughest and hardest of times. YOU never know when the mitzvah you did, will have the most or biggest effect on her and make the biggest difference in her life.

It is also a mitzva to refrain from being in the company of moshav letzem and people who sin and have no desire to change. In fact it has very negative spiritual effects on those who keep the company of those who openly and repeatedly sin, and it especially has an extremely detrimental effects if the “being mekarav” is being done in front of one’s family. Children who see smoking on Shabbos, etc. all sin being accepted because these “broken neshomos” might return someday can be negatively effected.

…AND yes BTW she turned her life around.

I don’t know what that means.

I was shocked! I was sure she forgot about me. Do you see? YOU have no clue what kind of impact you make on another person. Stop thinking about the fact there was no hakaros hatov and no thank yous. You really don’t need it. There is a long term result from your mitzvah.

If I would work with OTD’s (which I’m not doing for a variety of reason, but for those who do kol hakovod) then you are right. Regardless, you and I have a different opinion of what results are.

Anyway, it’s different when you act as a freind, not like a counseler/therapist. If you do a favor for a freind you need appreciation. Or maybe you don’t and that is a wonderful good middah. But most humans do need appreciation.

I heard it put this way. We have to respect the fact that they made a decision, we dont have to respect the decision that they made.

Every person NEEDS to be respected. In any given relationship one should evaluate if their needs are being met. NO one should force themselves to stay in a situation where only the other person’s needs are being met. If they choose to remain in that relationship they should work on teaching the other party that that it takes two to make a relationship work; and in a good relationship the needs of both parties are being met. No one has to accept unacceptable behavior. It is a matter of choice and where you draw the line. If a relationship does not work for you, you have the choice of limiting it or walking away from it.

“apushetyid, Why is making decisions deserving of respect? This is a part of life.”

Yes, and if you want someone to take you seriously, you have to respect them as a human being, which means you acknowledge their right to make a decision. You dont have to respect the decisions that they made, (and you should let them know that as well – being two faced is worse than summarily dismissing someone out of hand).

“What about the Eirov Rav and Korach? In the midbar with the greatest leaders they made poor choices.”

How did Moshe Rabbeinu deal with them?

“Do we also need to “respect” Joe Stalin (or at least that he made decisions, if not the decisions made)? Or Bernie Madoff?”

Are you trying to reach out to them and help them? Stalin firmly believed in his cause as did Bernie Madoff (they shared the same cause by the way, get rich off everyone else, although their means were different). You are certainly entitled to try your approach when dealing with OTD people, I just have a hard time believing “shaigetz get back in the beis medrash, I dont care if you are angry at the whole world” is going to get anyone one iota closer to Hashem.

“Do we also need to “respect” Joe Stalin (or at least that he made decisions, if not the decisions made)? Or Bernie Madoff?”

apushatayid: “Are you trying to reach out to them and help them?”

So you are saying you only need to “respect” those you are reaching out too. That is different that what I first understood you to be saying.

“I just have a hard time believing “shaigetz get back in the beis medrash”

Some frei people are not open to approach due to intense religious hatred or other reasons.

Sometimes one has to realize that they are not on the right madreigah in their lives to help other people with certain issues. Helping kids at risk, or OTD, or being involved with kiruv is not for everyone. Everyone does chesed in their own ways, and that does evolve and change as they mature and grow older. LIfe, and the experiences that life affords helps us in the evolution of helping and assisting other people. It is very possible that a 20 year old might not be able to assist the elderly or handicapped very well, because they might not have the patience or the selflessness that is needed. By the same token, not many young adults have the patience nor the selflessness necessary to deal with the OTD or at-risk population. One needs to be very non-judgmental and forgiving basically selfless, patient, respectful, warm, loving, caring while maintaing boundaries and being the best role model we can be. A young person cannot do this while still being obligated to care for their spouse and very young children. They themselves have too many needs and have too much of themselves obligated to others. In addition, they have not gathered enough life experience to see both sides of the coin, to have walked in various different shoes, worn various different hats, heard too many different stories and been proven wrong too many times to learn that first step in helping others is to “learn to listen to understand” and not just be eager to give your perspective and point of view. Being right is not “everything” being happy and successful is so much more important. In many cases you just can’t have both.

Yes, and if you want someone to take you seriously, you have to respect them as a human being,

I respect people who don’t hurt others. Why is that so hard to understand and the level of respect is earned through actions.

… which means you acknowledge their right to make a decision.

I respect the fact that there is bechira in this world. While it is part of the design Hashem created in this world that one has bechira, I do not respect those who make the wrong decision. It is their right to make a decision and they will suffer the consequences or rewards of their decisions. It is not a one way street. Whether they take me seriously or not is not my concern.

What I find totaly ironic is that those who insist that not everyone has bechira and OTD teens can’t make decisions because of their past or current circumstances in life also insist that we need to respect these OTD’s choices. How utterly hypocritical.

and you should let them know that as well – being two faced is worse than summarily dismissing someone out of hand).

Yep, right. If I meet an OTD person on the street and converse with them or even if I don’t, if I’ll just want to greet them I’ll say “Hi, how are you? By the way, I just want to let you know, since I’m an honest person, that I don’t respect you because your an OTD”.

“What about the Eirov Rav and Korach? In the midbar with the greatest leaders they made poor choices.”

How did Moshe Rabbeinu deal with them?

Yes, how?

Are you trying to reach out to them and help them? Stalin firmly believed in his cause as did Bernie Madoff (they shared the same cause by the way, get rich off everyone else, although their means were different).

If you can ask that question about these people, one of them being a mass murderer who snuffed out human life like they were bugs and the other one a person who stole millions of dollars from people who worked years for their retirement (Stalin was much worse than Madoff – the only comparison they have is that they are both evil) then I really can’t write the adjective I want to call you as the mods will never let it through.

Gosh. Can people be THAT naive to think that you can help these sick monsters?

You are certainly entitled to try your approach when dealing with OTD people I just have a hard time believing “shaigetz get back in the beis medrash,

After all that I’ve posted I see that some people do not understand what others write. If I say you need to act with repect to another person and they have a bechira in their life, how exactly does that fit inot your “shaigetz get back in bais medrash I dont care if you are angry at the whole world” remark?

My mehalech is exactly the opposite. Act with respect to OTD and do not respect their choices, but understand that everybody has bechira to make their own decisions in life. Is this so hard to understand?

“…is going to get anyone one iota closer to Hashem. “

Nobody can get any body into a bais medrash or closer to Hashem. The will and desire has to come from oneself.

This may be a politicly incorrect thing to say and I’m not sure that the mods will let this up, but many people who are OTD are just as sure that being frum is wrong as you are that it is correct. The fact of the matter is there are no logical proofs that being frum is correct and the emotional benefits may not be apparent to somone who has not experienced them. Somone may also be of the opinion that they are not enough of a reason to be frum.

Whatever one wants to see they’ll see. Truthseekers find truth and those who don’t want to face the truth, do not.

You have to respect and accept that not evreyone is going to agree with your opinion of unprovable things …

Unprovable? Of course, if you want the proofs to be anything but, it takeh won’t be. Millions of people accept the murdering of others they deem infidels as rightous deeds. Why? Do you think they really WANT to know the truth? It is easier, more conveinint AND they enjoy the talking and thinking of murder (no not everyone actually does it, b”H)as American’s enjoy their baseball games. Would they really want to do the right thing they would not need to go too far to realize that murder is murder.

…and that thinking less of them and pitying them for it is going to come across as arrogant and wrong.

If the Torah spoke the truth about greater humans than OTD’s because the truth needs to be said regardless how these people felt, then we too cannot make decisions on what others feel. I’m not saying we should be rude to OTD’s but those who believe that the Torah is divine and observing the mitzvos is of paramount importance need to be honest with ourselves regardless how we feel about that.

PS. I do not want to debate so called “proofs” on YWN anymore then I have. Not because I can’t but because it is frustrating when your replys dont get posted or the threads get closed when you answer. If you want just research it and actualy read both sides of the arguments. In some cases you can simply google a proof i.e. kuzari proof followed by the word “refutation of”.

How can I find refutations to what I’ve said in the thread The Torah is Emes regarding the Aztecs and more importantly the tochechah?

In last sentence of the paragraph If the Torah spoke…I meant to write …regardless how others feel about that not how we feel about that.

OOMIS,

Nope! I have no idea who you are and no idea what your E-mail address is

Philospher,

Im pretty sure my response here to your post isnt gonna be let through….but at least i tried.

It may go up in edited form.

Respect needs to be earned its not enough to just be a nebach OTD kid to get my respect.

Can a nebach OTD earn my respect? Sure, with actions that I would be proud of!

It may go up in edited form.

Mods, please don’t put it up only for my benefit.

I have no interest in going around in circles.

Im pretty sure my response here to your post isnt gonna be let through….but at least i tried.

000646 Thank you for trying. I’m guessing that this is only part of your post and the rest was not posted.

The truth is whatever true argument I will bring forth will not please you because you are set in your thinking so what’s the use of going back and forth.

You don’t have to answer me, but I think you should be clear on these issues for your own sake.

1. What is the purpose of life and at the end of a persons life what happens to that person? Do they just drop dead and all the thoughts, ideas, aspirations and feeling dissapear along with the body?

2. The physical body is an amazing tool with every atom working with amazing precision and the whole universe is astounding, with every single creature and inanimate object has their important place in our ecosystem and the heavenly bodies are awe inspiring. What is the purpose of this all? Who created this and for what purpose? Do you believe in the big bang theory and if you do how did life originate from dead matter and how did the matter that that supposedly collided with each other come to be there in the first place?

2. If you believe there is purpose in life then where do we find that purpose? Where do we find the answers about life and our Creator?

I have the answers so you need not post yours. I’m just suggesting that you be clear on these issues yourself because one day we will not be given the choice of what we want to believe the truth to be. We WILL face the Truth and if we have wasted our lives on narishkeiten what will we answer before God who has given us this precious gift of life?